Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
When and How to Leave a Church
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David Fry and Johnathan Arnold discuss legitimate reasons to leave a church, and how to go about doing it in a way that honors Christ.
- What are acceptable reasons to leave a church?
- What are the characteristics of someone who is mature enough to leave a church well?
- What steps should be taken before leaving a church?
- What should you do after you leave a church?
Take time. Just just take time and be purposeful about that. So say, okay, we're not going to make this decision this week, but let's take the next three months where we're going to pray.
SPEAKER_02An acceptable reason to leave a church is if you have church leaders who are not open to reason, they're harsh, they're spiritually controlling.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice. All for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_02In our last episode on the church manual or discipline, uh we ended with a word to those who are in a church context where things are pretty toxic, pretty, pretty dangerous, uh, and may need to leave. And while on the one hand, uh I always encourage, and I know you do the same, encourage somebody to be very slow to leave a church. Um, there are times when that is necessary, uh, sadly. And you suggested that we have a follow-up on when and how to leave a church well in a way that honors Christ as much as possible.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think this is a good time to talk about this because there's a lot of movement happening within churches and within the church world. Uh some of that, uh a lot of that, I should say, uh, has been uh because of COVID and a lot of churches going online for a period of time, and even those who have uh continued to meet you know early on back in 2020, uh even then there were people who were just uns unsure and uncertain. And now there's a plethora of churches. Almost every church seems to be online, and so that has caused people to uh compare their church experience with other uh experiences. And uh there's there's some positive and there's probably a lot of negative uh that has come from uh the last couple of years. Uh but this is a very pertinent uh topic, and I know that there are people out there who are going through this and are trying to make decisions. And uh for those who are further along in their decision, like they've already made the decision, we're we're going somewhere else, uh, maybe something that will be said today might cause them to pause and contemplate the reasons why. Um and then for someone maybe who is just now thinking about that and they haven't even verbalized it, uh, maybe this will be helpful to them as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so let's try to take the four questions approach here. And why don't we just present the four questions in advance? So uh they are what are acceptable reasons to leave a church? What are the characteristics of someone who is mature enough to leave a church well? What steps should be taken before leaving the church? And uh, what should you do after you leave? Um, so first of all, what are acceptable reasons to leave a church? And this is difficult because people leave churches for a whole plethora of reasons. Um from very shallow and selfish and self-indulgent and petty reasons to you know extremely serious reasons. So uh what are some things that come to your mind? Um, you know, acceptable reasons to leave a church.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think most reasons I have heard from people who have moved from church to church uh are not acceptable reasons uh to leave. Uh it doesn't mean that there aren't acceptable reasons, it's just they haven't identified those, and those are not the ones that are influencing their choices. Um and it's it's amazing some of the different reasons that people have have had for leaving a church. But uh let's let's talk about acceptable reasons. And I think the first one, which should be pretty clear, is uh if there is doctrinal error being espoused from the pulpit uh by the teachers, by the elders of the church, uh that is of first or even second order uh importance. Uh first order importance would be those things that uh uh distinguish orthodox Christianity from from heresy. So if your church uh fails to uphold an Orthodox view of, say, the Trinity or uh the two natures of Christ, and they've they err in that way, uh you need to start looking for uh well, uh let me let me back up just a second. You need to either uh find out, is this the particular person? Is this someone who needs to be corrected within the church, or is this something that the church holds to? Uh, and in that case, you need to find another church. But uh, even at this point, I'm gonna say uh you need to find out what the other elders uh hold to, what's the official doctrine of the church? Is this a person who has just been perhaps they haven't been vetted well enough and they're teaching a Sunday school class and getting into some heresy? Uh they they may just need to be corrected, and uh perhaps they don't even realize what they're doing. Um so there has to be some discernment and patience with that. But that that would be it. And and I mentioned second order as well, because there are uh some second order, uh many second order issues that uh make it very difficult for a congregation to uh do what a local church is supposed to do while um you're having such strong disagreement. And I think that's what we find uh you know, we find some uh distinctions even within the New Testament of ministry. You know, I think of Paul and Barnabas. Now they were not separating over you know even second order issues. They they were still in harmony, but their local ministries took you know different different paths. Now, I'm not gonna use Paul and Barnabas as an example. I don't think that is uh an example of uh churches you know splitting. I think those are two individuals uh within both of them being commissioned by the Church of Antioch, by the way. They still had to report to the same church, um, but they uh simply could not be part of the same ministry team in that case. So uh I guess up front, let me say uh there is something to learn from there, but that's not an example of someone leaving a church.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. Yeah, so so you've been talking about orthodoxy. Um we also we also talk about orthopraxy. Um, and while Christians might disagree on some matters of of you know morality and ethics, and there there's room for disagreement on some secondary issues, there's also you know primary issues when it comes to to uh morality and ethics as well. So I would also say, you know, if you have a church that is tolerating blatant sin and abuse, um, that that's a reason, an acceptable reason to leave a church there. And I think as I say that, and even as you were talking, I get a little nervous because some people were raised in a context where every issue was a first order, of first order importance. And so if any, if somebody disagrees with them on anything, they were raised to believe. So you really, again, have to have some level of maturity and discernment here to understand not everything in scripture is equally clear. But if there's something you know that is just being violated, that you know, Christians everywhere in all times and places have believed, like you know, permitting homosexuality, homosexual practice, permitting drunkenness, alcohol, the kind of things that Galatians, trying to think of a list in Galatians 5, you know, that's just outright since practice. If those things are being tolerated, you know, that's a that's a reason to leave as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, certainly. And uh again, I think when we see something that appears to us as being tolerated through this whole process, we want to make sure that we are patient, observant, prayerful, and seeking, because it very well could be that this is an outlier. This is not something that the church actually holds to, or there are the the leaders of the church may not be aware of something, or they may want to correct it, they just don't know how to go about it, and they may need some encouragement to do that. But for sure, if you see something being tolerated among the leadership, it's being ignored. Uh, you see uh again, you mentioned orthodoxy, anything that is uh contrary to uh what the church has always confessed as its faith, the the simple gospel, uh which you know is summarized, for instance, in the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed. Uh anything contrary to that uh should be uh has to be addressed. And if it's not uh it's time to leave that church. Uh and again, same thing with with these practices. Uh that's something that uh cannot be uh cannot be tolerated and must be uh addressed. And uh you're right, there are churches that will move second, third, even you know, lower order things up to the front and say, well, this is what's most important. And uh got to be careful with that. And and all of us tend to do that to some some measure. We all tend to put sort of our maybe special identity uh matters and move it all the way up to the forefront. Uh it's not that they're unimportant necessarily, but we've got to be clear on what is first order and what's second. So you have a good chart that you produce through Holy Joys. Uh, I know I had some feedback on that as well, or I I had some input on that. And so we put that together, and I think that's a good source. So people can get a an idea, graphic idea of what we're talking about when we're talking about first, second order belief or practice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So that is theological triage, unity and essentials, clarity and non-essentials, and we'll put that in the show notes. So, what would be some other reasons, acceptable reasons for someone to leave a church?
SPEAKER_00I have asked people who have come to me uh at various times through the years and said, Yeah, I'm really struggling. You know, I want to do this, but yeah, I just I disagree with the church on these points. And I'll ask them, I'll say, Well, are you a member? And they'll say, Well, no, I'm not, I don't know, I don't feel like I want to be a member, but you know, I want to be involved. And I say, Well, if you're not willing to be a member of your church, I don't even know why you're attending there. Uh like why are you not willing to be a member? And uh thankfully, in many cases, they've they've taken that, they've thought about it, and they've thought, you know what, you're right. I I should become a member. I, yes, I disagree with a few things here, but they're not important enough for to keep me from being a member. I'm willing to to sacrifice something or to or to to give up something uh for the sake of the body, for the common good. Uh if you're in that place where you're not a member and uh and you have not taken that seriously, or you're not considered that seriously, I would say you have a conversation with your pastor, and uh maybe with, you know, if you're married with your spouse, uh have a conversation with a good friend and and really identify the reasons why you are not willing to be a member. Uh because if you're not, then you're really handicapping yourself, and you're not being one of those joints that Paul talks about in Ephesians chapter four that holds the body together. Uh you have to you have to have a visible commitment to your brothers and sisters so that they know, hey, you are you're you're part of this family, you're a part of this body, you're committed to it. Uh you're not just this uh outlier who's just you know wants to enjoy the benefits of a body without being a part of it. Uh that's that's uh not a good place to be. Uh so you know, whatever reasons uh you think there are for not being being a member, uh in my mind, that's if there are good reasons, that's good reasons to leave the church. Right.
SPEAKER_02So I I stated it this way. You can't, you know, an acceptable reason to leave a church is if you can't become a member in good conscience, and this is unlikely to change any time in the foreseeable future. So, you know, if you're at a church that really needs just some membership reform, that's a lot of churches, um, and maybe you haven't joined for that reason, and you talk to your elders, they acknowledge the problems and they say, hey, you know, we have a meeting coming up, we're gonna discuss this, we're working on this, be patient. Um, but if there's really no willingness to address the issues and you feel like they're legitimate, um, you prayerfully considered them. It's not just about your preferences, uh, it's not just about your rights, but it but it you know, real reasons why you you don't believe you can become a member of good conscience. Absolutely, go somewhere else. Because um I think theologically speaking, now I know we need to uh you need to recognize the the kind of weird context in which we're we are uh in the evangelical church world today, but especially in more conservative and fundamentalist circles, but biblically speaking, if you aren't a member of a local church, you are a member of the church. And anyone who's not a member of the visible church is not ordinarily a member of the invisible church. Now, we've you know, the way that we practice membership, we've made it sometimes so difficult for people that we've created barriers. And I think the church and church leaders will be the ones who are responsible to God for that. Um but you uh in a normal situation, a healthy context, someone who refuses membership is really refusing membership in the church, the whole church of Jesus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And let me interject there. You you say uh, you know, if if there's no likely change in the foreseeable future, you know, so some people, especially younger people, they don't look that far into the future. And so when they sit think foreseeable future, they're thinking, you know, over the next 12 months. Uh older people know that good change takes longer than 12 months, usually. It takes sometimes years. And so I would I would caution, especially younger people, and say, you know what? Um nearly every church that I'm aware of needs to address some uh some aspect of their membership uh in order to come into line with what God actually says in in his word uh regarding church membership, uh, but including you know the church I pastor as well. Uh but you need to be a part of that and and be become a member if you can in good conscience and be a part of that change. And if especially if you've attended there for a while, be a part of that change. And if over time you see, you know what, there's no no headway being made here. There's no desire for change, there's no even consideration of what God's word says about biblical membership in the church, uh then you may have to make a different decision. But in some cases, there are people who are attending churches that if they would join as members, they would be able to be a part of that conversation and effect positive change. Some churches will never change simply because there are people who attend them who refuse to become members.
SPEAKER_02Right. Right. And then there's other contexts in which it probably wouldn't make a difference. Um, either it's the organization is top that you know top heavy, and uh those those decisions are made in a denominational level, and those things just are not going to be uh changed very easily. So you have to be aware of your context and um you know prayerfully and very honestly um you know consider these things. So we mentioned church, we mentioned church leaders there uh and their willingness to to hear these concerns and to change. You know, I would say another reason, an acceptable reason to leave a church, is if you have church leaders who are not open to reason, they're harsh, they're spiritually controlling, they're manipulative or abusive, they're dismissive of your concerns. Um that that's that's those are pretty big red flags. And if you make a sincere and repeated effort to speak to your church leaders uh about issues, and they're they're just very dismissive, very harsh, not open to reason. Um, I do think that that those are acceptable reasons to think about leaving.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I do too. And that takes us to takes my mind to 1 Peter chapter 5, and where that instruction to pastors, to shepherds, is to shepherd the flock of God, uh and to do so uh with a a you know heart of compassion, not domineering, not uh you know, dominating over a person, but exercising the authority of eldership as a shepherd, which is such a rich metaphor in itself. Uh and so if you have someone who is domineering, that's that's specifically the instruction that is given to us in in 1 Peter uh chapter 5 and verse 3, says, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. Uh and if if there is a person who or if the leader or elders are domineering, uh they are violating God's word. And uh they're probably a bit narcissistic and uh you know, probably need help beyond what you're gonna be able to give them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, think of 1 Timothy 3 as well, where it says they're not to be violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, uh, goes on to warn about being puffed up and having conceit. And um, and so I think, yes, uh abusive church leadership, spiritually, emotionally abusive church leadership. Uh, I've counseled so many people more than I wish I had, uh, who have described their experiences with pastors and evangelists growing up. That is just um, yeah, totally, totally uh unacceptable. And they and I wish they would have gotten out. And I wish somebody would have told them it's okay to leave. You don't have to sit under this kind of abuse. There are there are true shepherds out there. Um, I would say that this this is this is tricky. We're here in a little bit, we're gonna talk about the need to you know go to your church leaders, talk to your elders, your pastor before you leave. Um, but this is this is one example of where I would say if you're in a context where you you can say with confidence, my pastor, my elders are truly spiritually, emotionally abusive and manipulative. I would say those that might be a case in which you you may be justified to leave without even approaching them, because you don't want to put yourself uh in a in a situation to get abused further. Um so we can maybe we can talk about that when it comes up. Um but you know that these things obviously are on a scale. So you have to, again, be aware of your context. Um you try to give your leaders the benefit of the doubt, but also if you really have leaders who are who are oppressive and controlling and manipulative, um, I would encourage you to leave because it's it's gonna be detrimental to you and to your to your family, especially if you have children. You don't want them to be up there modeling Christ uh and giving people the the impression, giving your children the impression that this is what the great shepherd looks like, um, because as under-shepherds, you know, we are to be uh exemplars, we're to be uh models of Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And if you're not sure, if you're in a situation where you know you think, oh yeah, my pastor is um, you know, is is he is it is it abuse, is it you know harsh, is it manipulative? If your pastor is not clearly gentle, all right, something's wrong. Uh if he if he is if he if his if his tone, if the way he comes across, whether it's in preaching or in personal conversation or in or in counseling or some other setting, if it's not gentle, if he's not consciously gentle with the congregation, um, you know, the then some of it may be that he just needs, you know, some accountability and a refresher on what a shepherd's called to. Um, but there should be no guess. You should not have to guess, you know, whether or not your pastor is a shepherd uh or not. That should be very, very apparent. So that's a word to pastors. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02All right. Um, so acceptable reasons to leave a church. There are others, but those are some some major ones. Um what are the characteristics of someone who is mature enough to leave a church well? Um, so this really overlaps with with kind of the question that you implied earlier. You know, what are unacceptable reasons to leave a church? Um, and so the first the first reason that came to my mind is that um they're patient. So they aren't leaving on a whim uh or without giving their church a real opportunity to grow and change. Um so you know, it's somebody who it's not they've been here a few months uh or even a year, and things aren't you know moving as fast as they want them to move, and they're not satisfied with everything, and the grass looks greener on the other side and watching live streams and those churches look a lot bigger and healthier or maybe they assume they're healthier because they're bigger and they're they're ready to jump ship, you know, and they're just kind of living in limbo, never really satisfied, impatient. Yeah, that's that person isn't mature enough to leave. And you you really ought to put the brakes on and do some serious introspection uh before you go jump and ship.
SPEAKER_00Certainly. And part of that is knowing what it is positively that that the church is supposed to be and what it is that we need as as believers. So we may leave a church just because there are things we don't like. Well what is it that you we are to like? What is it that we are to be looking for in a church? And that takes some time. It takes some patience because very often the thought comes to us of leaving first because of some negative action or or some negative experience that we've had. And we need to be patient enough to think that through and then think of what are the positive reasons or what are the positive characteristics of a church which we envision as hey this is what the church is supposed to be. This church isn't um meeting that and that's pretty critical. So patience absolutely that's the first thing that came to my mind too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I uh wrote an article it must be two three years ago now I'm scared to even reference it I need to go back and rewrite it. But it was 10 questions to consider before leaving your church and that is on Holy Joys. And the first question is do I attend a good Bible believing church and I have a friend who moved to a new part of the state and could not find a church that affirmed like Orthodox Christian teaching. He was in a very rural area so there was you know only a few churches within driving distance but you know a lot a lot of them were were um you know LGBT affirming and just really struggled to find a church that he felt like even preach the Bible. And it made me so grateful for the churches in my area, you know, many churches in my area that I could recommend in good conscience because I know at least they they affirm Orthodox Christianity, a good Bible believing church. And so yeah part of patience is reminding yourself of what you do have at your church that you might not be grateful for and appreciative for. And I uh I heard something like one time like how do you love something? You love something by thinking about what it would be like not to have it. And you know imagine you didn't have you know the the the preaching that you have every week and the and the fellowship that you have and think about the the good things that your church has and that can help you sometimes to be more patient with the areas in which it it needs to grow. And that's not to minimize those areas sometimes those areas of growth are are pretty significant and could even constitute reasons for leaving. But sometimes we we have an unrealistic picture of what a local church should be and we forget that most of the churches that Paul planted were riddled with problems and you know had room for growth and you know we might be quick quick to jump ship because there's so many churches you know that on every street corner when you know in in times past you were just grateful to have a good Bible believing church within driving distance. So I think the plethora of options today has made church hopping a lot more common. And we need to push back against that and remind ourselves that just because there's more options doesn't mean that we can quickly forsake the covenant community to which we belong and that when and to the people to whom we've covenanted ourselves with, right? That those those covenant commitments are serious and so we need to be very slow and we need to remember what we do have. And so if you have a good you know you attend a good Bible believing church um you know start there. Remind yourself of the good things that you have and that can help you to be a little more patient.
SPEAKER_00Right. And any any decision to move must be done in love for what the Church of Christ is we if if you have become just disenchanted with your church but you don't know you're not demonstrating a love for the church then that's it's just going to be hurtful for everybody including yourself. But you there there has to be this decision to to to uh relocate or to move to another church or leave a church has to be while convincing others that you love the church of Jesus Christ. And that you care deeply for what happens within the church and you care deeply about the life of the church and that there are some very specific matters that seem to you to be just simply incompatible for the church being what it's supposed to be. Now I I mean it's serious right and that that's serious but it ought to be that serious John Wesley had some very definite things to say things to say about people who leave a church on his uh he had a couple different sermons uh one of them on schism uh he has some pretty strong things to say about people who leave the church now we have to understand that in the context of his day uh in the context of his day a single village pretty much had two churches right uh a Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England so you know you didn't have the choice of going from you know the Methodist church to the Presbyterian church to the Baptist church to the Lutheran church and so on and so forth. You just had really really one maybe two choices so uh you have to read it in that light uh but um he really centers this around love uh people leave he says they leave because there are things that they don't love there. And so we have to be careful that we are loving the right things and not being unlovin' loving towards uh you know towards right things yeah I'm thinking of people who I know have left churches and it's frustrated the fire out of me because uh it's like you know they show up some Sunday mornings or maybe most Sunday mornings.
SPEAKER_02They're never there midweek they're not part of a of a small group or a midweek uh you know Bible study where they have an opportunity to connect more personally with some people in the church they they leave right after the the morning service they're not making an effort to connect with other members of the body uh they're not making you know making any effort to build friendships um and and then they complain about feeling disconnected well no you know no kidding no you know no surprise there you're not invested you don't really care love commits to the other love seeks out the other love serves the other so if you're not serving people in the church you're not trying to attend to their needs I just preached on this um Sunday in Philippians 2 um and just just so challeng deeply challenged by you know living your life seeking not only your own interests but the interests of others um and so make sure that you're not thinking about leaving your church just because you're thinking about your own interests um but make sure you're you're you're thinking about the interests of others and so um yeah you need to so the second reason or the second characteristic of someone who is mature enough to leave a church well is someone who loves the church like Christ loves it and isn't leaving just because they don't really care uh or aren't invested in the church. I would say another reason is um or a characteristic of someone who's mature enough is that they're willing to sacrifice some of their rights for the sake of the body. So they aren't simply leaving because their preferences aren't being met. And I think about Paul, you know, who said I'll never eat meat again you know if it offends my brother. And I think we ought to have that kind of flexible love where so I mean an obvious example of this is masking, right? So lots of people left churches because their churches had a mask mandate. That's a sin. I'm sorry. You leave your church because your church requires masks that's a sin uh to leave to leave the church for that reason. Not only is it not a legitimate reason to leave a church, but it demonstrates um you know you're extremely self-centered and um you're you're not loving. You're not loving. Right very unloving. And um and so yeah so but there's there's m much more significant examples than that. And people leave churches all the time just because um you know they they don't agree on on a minor issue. You have an article in Holy Joys that's helpful along these lines when in Rome do as the Romans do. It's not hypocritical to just follow your local church's customs on some nonessential issues even if you don't think they're necessary. You know if your church for example is really like strict with its keeping of the Sabbath, as long as it's within reason um I for example like you know never buying gas on the Lord's Air you know or at least under normal circumstances and you feel like in Christ you know you have a different view of the Sabbath or of the Lord's Day and what it is and you feel clear to buy gas on Sundays, you know, like you're not a hypocrite to respect your church's you know conviction as a whole, your the corporate conviction or or local custom and just not buy gas on the Lord's Day out of respect for them and because you don't want to make a member stumble and because they're not going to understand your theological reasoning, right? So that's that's an example of something that I don't think is is leg a legitimate reason to leave a church. So you've got to have that kind of flexible and accommodating love that sets aside some of your preferences and rights for the sake of the body and their their corporate convictions.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah and uh just going back here to to add a qualification in regard to the mask thing because that's been such a hot issue uh you know there there are people who have left uh churches because they had a mask mandate and there are people who have left churches because they didn't and I've actually experienced both of those right here in our own church. So um right and I think the bottom line is is that is that that's very that's very selfish. That's very unloving and membership simply requires us to be willing to sacrifice some things that we may prefer for the common good of the of the body. And Christians it's it's very basic to Christian thought that we act for the common good. If I know that an action will benefit me but will hurt everybody else I need to act for the good of everybody else. And that is true as Christians. Right all right any other characteristics that come to mind of someone who is mature enough to leave a church well you know those three are pretty broad I think they're pretty encompassing be patient be loving be self-sacrificial I think those are a a good summary with patient I would add the the word gentle be gentle in in your uh decision and in your communicating that decision and I think that can lead us into our our third question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What steps should be taken before leaving the church?
SPEAKER_00Drawing on what we've just said uh take time just just take time and be purposeful about that. So uh say okay we're not going to make this decision this week but let's take the next three months uh in some cases it may need to be uh shorter in some cases it may need to be longer uh where we're gonna pray uh with this if you're if you're part of a family again if you're married if you have children especially if you have adult children if you have teenage children uh you're gonna need to have some some family conversations about it and and do so really identifying what uh the important things are that you should be considering in regard to the church and then pray together as a family uh move move forward uh together as a family you know if your spouse is in disagreement with you um you probably should exercise some more patience and uh continue to pray and not make the decision to leave that's a very popular thing right now uh a lot of pastors are seeing uh split families and in fact I would guess that probably uh maybe not most but but many many churches now have people who attend their church and part of the family attends a different church that is becoming uh that has increased dramatically in the last few years uh that's a bad that's a bad precedent I do not like it at all uh and I uh if if a family is considering that uh to a spouse who is maybe more eager to leave now uh I would say uh you know just just hold on and if you're the pa if you're the the spouse who you know you're kind of holding out and you want to you want to stay, uh you need to listen to uh the the person who is wanting to leave and uh really take time to pray together. Probably seek uh some some godly outside counsel as well uh if there's disagreement uh you really probably ought to seek some counsel from someone who can see it objectively and can help counsel you through this and really identify um the needs of your family.
SPEAKER_02Yes absolutely godly counsel in many counselors there is safety and that is my uh when whenever I have a life decision I talk to about 10 people because I just I know that my emotions my passions my narrow cut you know narrow sightedness uh is so easy I can I can just lose uh lose sight of the big picture and the more voices that I bring in sometimes you consult somebody and they don't really know what to tell you and that's why you know I consult as many mature godly outside voices as you can sure I I think there's there's great wisdom in that yes yes and and then uh one of the reasons why I think we're emphasizing outside counsel is that as you involve others in your decision, be careful that you are not sowing seeds of discord that are going to create disunity in your local context. So it's very easy to start griping and complaining and talking about leaving to somebody who you know might share some of your concerns in the local church, somebody especially who's of your same generation or age group or somebody you grew up with in the church. I'm not saying it's always wrong to do that, but you need to be cautious because very easily you can begin to create an undercurrent that that maybe ripples further than you want it to. And very quickly you can create some pretty big problems for your elders. And if that gets back to your pastors, which I am astounded how many things get back to me as a pastor and how many things I know you know travel way faster than you would ever imagine. And if that gets back to your pastor, that's going to be pretty hurtful and they're gonna wonder why didn't you come to me and talk to me? And um so just yeah just caution people there. Don't gossip don't sow seeds of discord but uh you know seek outside counsel and you really ought to talk to your pastor and your your elders sooner rather than later and at least tell be you know just say hey pastor uh can can we get together for coffee or can we get together for breakfast sometime? I'd love I'd just love to talk to you about some things and then say you know Pastor I really want to be up front. I have been having thoughts about leaving a church and rather than you know hide those from you know I I really feel like I'd like to be able to discuss them with you and just express how I'm feeling I don't want to create you know I'm not trying to put a burden on you or pressure you but you are my pastor and I just feel like I'd really like to talk about this. And that's going to be hard for a pastor to hear but it's going to be a lot better than them hearing that you know you you're talking behind their back or one day just look around and you're gone and they don't know why. So you know really bring your pastor, bring your elders into this decision sooner rather than later, I would say not too soon because you know you don't want in a moment in frustration, but you know give yourself a little time to think and pray about it and when you're in the right frame of mind, involve your pastor.
SPEAKER_00And be very clear about what your reasons are. You know, lay it out here's one, here's two, here's three or maybe there's just one reason. Just be very, very clear because your pastor is going to have to field questions, especially if you've been in the church for a while. Your pastor's gonna have to field questions from people who say hey you know hey we missed so and so why why aren't they coming around again? And your pastor if he's never heard from you he's gonna say I don't know I I've you know reached out and haven't gotten any response and or whatever the answer may be. So be very clear with uh the reasons uh why you feel like you need to leave the church. Communicate those to your pastors and then I would say make sure you uh communicate them respectfully to to your friends because as John Wesley points out um you know when you leave a church it feels it will feel very unloving to uh your friends who are in the church especially if you leave without even saying anything uh you're not rejecting a building okay if you just leave without saying anything you're rejecting a body and uh so you need to make sure you take care of your friendships uh that you make it clear there are certain issues you know if it's doctrinal here's the doctrinal issue with which we disagree and we feel like that it's a big enough issue that we probably need to find a different church. Or there is this sin that's being tolerated and we here are the steps that we have taken to try to to address it and you know it's it hasn't been addressed uh to our satisfaction and so we feel like for this reason we need to leave uh but we're not rejecting you as our friends and and so I you really have to take care with your friends and make it clear uh why you it why it is that you believe uh that it's time for you to to leave this church. Um and and but don't go leaving you know trying to you know recruit people against you know a particular elder uh just because you like them they have to come to that conclusion themselves they need to realize oh okay so they're they're teaching uh something that is you know contrary to first order Christian doctrine oh I I hadn't been aware of that that's interesting I I'm concerned about that too let me go talk to the pastor right yeah they need to go have that conversation the same thing uh they should not take your word for it they need to go have that conversation with the elders uh as well and go through the same process uh but I do think it is important respectfully without sowing discord to be very clear uh with uh your friends why it is uh don't leave them in the dark and don't leave your pastor in the dark either yeah and that takes a lot of courage um you know I I I think back to you know some hard decisions hard changes that I've made and you know one strategy is to wait until you have a natural transition in your life like you move you you get a new job and you just change context and just say you know hey this is a better fit for me and my family and um you know I've done that but um you know looking back sometimes I wish I would have been a little more a little more clear and up front about some of the reasons why I left but one of the reasons why people don't do that is because it it's it's hard.
SPEAKER_02You you don't want to be you don't you're afraid of the pushback you're afraid of how you're going to be treated you're afraid you're not gonna be received well you're you're afraid you're gonna be looked down on or looked at as a looked at as a compromise or whatever. And it's just it's it's easier to just fly under the radar and kind of slip away. But yeah I really do think there's some moral courage that that this kind of a decision calls for uh where where you really do need to acknowledge issues.
SPEAKER_00And this is difficult in a small church because anyone who leaves has a big impact. It's also difficult in a large church because it's easy to leave without saying anything to the pastor. In fact in some cases you don't even hardly have access to a pastor or to an elder I know uh one church that's kind of in our our area of uh north side of Indianapolis a mega church and uh someone who you think would have had you know the ear of the pastor uh just simply didn't get a response from his pastor after multiple emails and uh the email was passed on to another elder the elder kind of responded with this kind of um you know form response kind of given token acknowledgement And nothing was followed up on. And he's like, I was really disappointed. I I can't even have get a com a sit-down conversation with an elder. So that's the problem with the large churches. So it it that that's a challenge. So you may face different challenges depending on the size of your church. Um and uh again, all of this applies though. Don't you don't want to sow seeds of discord, you don't want to be uh gossipy, you want to be respectful, and you want to be very clear about here are the reasons. And so if if for some reason you're not able to have access to an elder, uh you still want to make sure that someone to whom you are spiritually accountable in that church uh is clear for with the reasons for uh why you feel like you need to leave. Yeah, very good.
SPEAKER_02Before we move on to the next question, there's one one big one, maybe maybe the biggest one. Make sure you have somewhere else to go. I can't believe the number of people who have said, I'm thinking about leaving my church. We might leave, we're gonna leave, probably gonna leave the church soon. And I'm like, where are you gonna go? Uh I don't know. Well, you know, that's a big deal. Like the grass is always greener on the other side. You might end up if you if you wait too long to start looking for another church, um, you you end up just going to start church hopping, and you don't end up anywhere very long. And so I we see these people who they're here for a couple months, they're there for a couple months. You know, you need to make sure that um you know at some point you start seriously searching for a church. Now, I would caution, I would add a caution here. Don't start looking for a church too soon. Right. Because if you if you do that, you're gonna just create the angst inside. You know, you look at a church's website, you might listen to the this other pastor's sermons, or you watch the live stream if they have it, and then it's gonna initially they're gonna give you their best, their best front, and it's gonna be easier to make the quick jump. So, so hold on. You know, you get there, they're gonna have problems too. So be patient. But at some point, if you are really serious and you're pretty dead set on leaving and you you really feel like that's that's the right decision, um, you need to do some serious investigation. You know, look at the church, make sure it's orthodox in its beliefs, make sure you align with that church on secondary issues, call the pastor, ask for a sit-down meeting with their pastor, um, you know, visit that church on a uh on a special day or something. Like if they have a midweek service or they have an evening service, you know, slip away from your local church one or two times quietly and and go visit that church, get to know the people a little bit and make sure it's really a good fit. Because if you don't have a good place to plug in when you leave, it's gonna end up being more difficult and more uh harmful to you and your family than it could be to just to just stay where you're at.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. And don't exchange an in-body, in-person experience at church with an online experience. Uh I would say that doesn't count. All right. Uh don't say, well, we're just gonna go, you know, do the online with this church that's you know a thousand miles away, and we're just gonna do that until we find a church. Uh no, I uh that's unacceptable. Totally. Uh you uh in most places, especially in uh in our you know, in our country and in the uh West, uh there are some countries where you don't have this uh you know luxury. But in our context, uh you you may have to drive an hour. Uh you may have to drive uh a ways to go to a church. Uh but this is this is a serious decision that you need to think about all the various ramifications uh before you make this decision. And uh absolutely you need to be in person with a body of of believers, you know, visibly present and participating in a congregation. Don't don't don't leave a large seam in between.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Somebody asked recently, um, does someone who watches a live stream week after week when they could be in an embodied gathering violate Hebrews 10, 25? Absolutely they do. Um you know, you back up to verse 24. Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another. So not neglecting to meet together is sandwiched between stir up one another to love and good works and encourage one another. You can't stir up one another to love and good works, and you can't encourage one another if you're not embodied. Uh, every Christian needs to belong to a local embodied gathering. And unless you cannot be there, it is sinful to neglect embodied gathering on the Lord's Day. Um, so this is this is that's a great point. You know, for me, I would never even think of that. Um, if I'm on vacation, I I'm I'm at I'm at some church on the Lord's Day. I cannot imagine going, you know, weeks on end without you know knowing where I'm going next and and just saying, we'll just do the live stream thing. That is that is a huge problem, and it's probably going to become a bigger problem going forward. And so I'm really glad you brought that up because I'm deeply concerned about that trend.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's the that's the biggest movement. You know, I mentioned at the beginning of this uh podcast that there's a lot of moving happening within the church world. And the majority of that, most of that, is uh the move from in-body uh congregating to online. Uh more of that is happening than people moving from one church to another church as far as physically. Um the biggest movement is people just going online. There are still people, uh, I I know you know friends who continue to attend church online, and they have now for two and a half years, and they have just become comfortable with it. Um, and that's yeah, that's just not acceptable.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna restrain myself from continuing down that. Yes, I have a lot more to say, so we should have a discussion.
SPEAKER_00Well, let's go let's go to the yeah, let's go to the last question then. So our fourth question. Uh, what should you do after you leave a church?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So um, first of all, continue to talk charitably about your previous church context. Um, you can acknowledge the reasons why you left. Um, I would encourage you to almost rehearse your answer so that if someone says, hey, why'd you leave that church? You're not stumbling around in the moment trying to explain yourself because you'll end up saying more than you want to say or you won't say it well. Right. So have a have an answer. Um, it can acknowledge, you can acknowledge specific problems, but you know, I would probably encourage you to err on the side of charity. My go-to response for why I left the last context I was in is just um where I'm at now is a better fit for me and my family because I I don't want to be casting shade. I don't want to be casting snows. Now, if somebody presses me and I trust that person and we we have a trusting relationship, I might say there are some uh they hold to some convictions and to some beliefs and practices that uh I disagree with at a theological level and I I felt like would be a hindrance to me in my ministry. So, you know, the it's okay to acknowledge those things, but just again, uh err on the side of charity.
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. I would I would say also uh have a conversation with the leaders of your uh of the new church, especially with the pastor. Um you don't need to you know talk to everybody, all your new friends. You'll you don't have to go over all of that. They may ask questions of, oh, hey, what brought you here? But mostly, you know, talk about what it is that you appreciate about that new church. Uh here's here are the things that brought us to this church. And but to your pastor, then go ahead and make sure he understands or she understands why you left the previous church, what your concerns were there. Now, with that, let me go backwards just a little bit here. Uh, when you speak to the elder or elders of the of the outgoing church, the church you're leaving, I would recommend that you put in writing your reasons for leaving. Because you want to make sure that you have, number one, that you have written it down for yourself in private and you've gone over it and you've worded it very carefully and very uh specifically, because usually the first thing we write probably is not the thing that we should publish. It's probably not the thing that we should say. Uh, but get it in writing, refine it, pray over it, uh, make sure it's nuanced, make sure it's specific enough, and make sure you're not keeping people necessarily just kind of guessing that you're just kind of giving some sort of um you know over-generalized thing that they just leaves them scratching their heads like, oh, we're really not sure what they uh you know what they you know disagreed with. Uh you need to be specific enough, uh, and that's usually requires something in writing. And I would definitely recommend that. Uh, but then uh you know after you've left the church, uh you know move move forward positively, communicate to the new church pastor if your ch if your new church pastor is wise, uh he will be in contact with your old church pastor. Right. And he will verify. Uh so make sure your story is consistent, uh, because I know this happens. Uh you know, not I do this, other pastors do this. And uh believe me, um, you know, so so part of becoming a member at our church is you have to put down references and you have to you have to, you know, in the application, you have to tell us where you were members of, if you were, of a previous church. And I I make those phone calls. I send those emails. Uh did they leave as a member in good standing? You know, what's I've never heard anything from you. So uh, you know, what's you know what tell me something I that I may not know if there's something I need to know. So pastors, uh, some pastors are very good at doing that, uh, very good at saying, uh, you know, hey, here's the reason that they gave me, and you know, I we completely understand it, and um, you know, we we hope they do well in your church. Um but you need to know, and the pastors uh they will have conversations because they have to. Uh so make sure you're very clear, make sure you're consistent in your reasons that you don't suddenly change it. You give your old church, you know, some reasons, and then you go to your new church, and then you give them all the real reasons. Um it's gonna it's gonna go back. It's people are gonna find out. So you gotta be and that's unchristian to do that. That's unchristian. That's dishonest. Uh be honest, be real, put it in writing.
SPEAKER_02All right, any final thoughts?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this whole thing, it's not pleasant for anybody. Um, it's not pleasant to to leave a church. Uh it it's hard on a family. Uh you have uh, you know, if you're if you're a young family with young children, you know, your children have probably, even if they're toddlers, you know, they're already starting to to uh build friendships. Uh especially if you are um you have teenagers. It's so, so very, very difficult. And yet there are times where you need to leave the church. And uh there are times where uh you just really have to uh come to the point where you realize, all right, um I I'm hurting my family, our spiritual health by remaining where we are for these reasons. And those reasons may not be applicable to anyone else in the church. For everybody else, it may be a good and healthy thing for them to be there, but for you, for s for those unique reasons, it may not be. Um you need to seriously give uh thought to that. Um but uh it but it's tough, it's difficult, and I would dare say even traumatic uh on some families and and and on perhaps even on you. And so uh you may need to uh to have some ongoing counsel uh to help you through this this uh this transition uh in order to keep yourself from becoming uh embittered, uh keeping somebody in your family perhaps from from becoming embittered, and for it to truly be something that is uh healthy instead of uh sickening for your spiritual health.
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