Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Modest Clothing, Part 2
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Johnathan Arnold and David Fry continue to discuss modest clothing and biblical nakedness.
Topics discussed:
- Genesis 2–3
- A biblical definition of nakedness
- Nakedness in the law
- Cultural change
- Dressing modestly today
We ought to ask ourselves repeatedly, where is my standard for modesty coming from? Who is defining nakedness from me?
SPEAKER_01Don't avoid the conversation. Don't avoid the conversation because you're afraid of the slippery slope. Don't avoid the conversation because you don't want to get caught up in legalism. Both sides can have reasons why at the end of the day they just stop talking about it. But faithfulness to scripture means that we've gotta have these hard conversations.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_01Alright, so in our last conversation, we introduced the issue of modesty, modest clothing, explained modesty in its more general, broad sense, and then specifically as it pertains to properly covering the body with clothing. And that led us into a discussion about the way in which covering the body, and particularly our nakedness, is introduced from the very beginning in the foundational chapters of the Bible, and really sets up the whole story of creation, fall, redemption, where life in a perfect world was a life that was naked and unashamed. That's a symbol of our unashamed transparency before God. How Adam and Eve after the fall, their first instinct was to try to hide themselves with fig leaves, you know, make for themselves a loincloth. And that shows our tendency to invent inadequate coverings for our nakedness, to try to cover our sin and shame with our own standard of righteousness. But then how God promises a redeemer in Genesis 3.15, and then right after that passage, uh the first gracious act that he performs is to properly cover his people's nakedness by uh killing an innocent creature in creation and covering Adam and Eve with the skin of that animal, which points us forward to Jesus Christ, so that a fully clothed person is a God-ordained symbol of the full clothing of Christ righteousness. And that even though the reality of the clothing of Christ righteousness is available to us as New Testament believers, uh, the symbol is still relevant for us. It's still important. That hasn't done away with the need for gospel symbolism, for the need for God's people to wear clothing. And what we want to do now in the second episode is uh talk in a little more detail about what exactly is our nakedness? Uh clearly Adam and Eve didn't define it sufficiently because they thought it was enough to just cover their private parts with fig leaves. God said no, you need to be covered more properly. So, what exactly needs to be covered in our body? Is there biblical data that can help us to provide a biblical definition of nakedness and uh and then try to maybe maybe get into some of the stickier conversations about what kinds of clothing you know are appropriate or inappropriate for Christians to wear? So, would you add anything to that summary before we uh continue here with the second part?
SPEAKER_02I would only add this that Christians regularly show our faith in outward symbols, uh, not only in clothing, but in in baptism, in celebrating the Holy Eucharist, and in a number of other ways. And so it ought to be uh pretty easily understood that uh clothing would also be an outward symbol of uh our reception of God's God's grace in covering us. Uh that's the way uh the Bible, I believe, presents it. Uh that's how Christians have understood it now for millennia, and I think there's strong a strong case to be made there. And that it's only fairly recent in uh Christian history that uh that there are Christians, as has been common today, who have uh really ignored or not given much attention to uh being being properly covered.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, so please go back, uh, if you're listening, go back and listen to that first part before you listen to this, because we really don't believe that you will understand the issue of nakedness or even of modesty unless you first have a pretty firm grasp on the way that this unfolds in scripture uh with a biblical theology of nakedness. So let's talk about this idea, this concept of nakedness. We we hear that our nakedness needs to be covered. And again, I think if you asked, you know, almost any Christian, do we need to cover our nakedness? They would say, Yeah, absolutely. We can all agree our nakedness needs to be covered. But this one person might dress with their, you know, might wear a skirt down to the ground, and the next Christian might wear a bikini and say, Well, my private parts are covered, that's my nakedness. So they're clearly uh have very radically different understandings of what nakedness is. And I think the danger that we can fall into is every man does what is right in his own eyes. Like Adam and Eve, we just kind of whatever we feel like is appropriate or proper clothing, we kind of define nakedness for ourselves. But the question that we have to answer is, you know, what is our nakedness? And where do we get that definition from? Uh, did you just pull that definition out of thin air? Did you just kind of imbibe it from culture, from the world around us, which is very immodest? Um, where did you get that? Because if you don't have some kind of, even if it's not as neatly defined as we would like, if we don't have some kind of general consensus uh and some kind of objective way to define that, um, it's really this is just going to become a matter of, you know, do whatever's right in your own eyes. And uh clearly that's what Adam and Eve did, and it wasn't it wasn't appropriate, it wasn't acceptable to God.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I think there is an important uh divorce that people attempt to make today, and that is to divorce uh nakedness, biblical nakedness. Uh, they may not understand it as biblical nakedness, but uh biblical nakedness from sexuality, as if one can be exposed and should not be sexualized. And I I think that is an attempt to divorce one's exposure or or being uncovered or naked from being a sexual being. And and I want to say that uh do people really understand what they're doing? And that that's actually quite dangerous. Uh that I don't I don't believe that nakedness and sexuality are meant to be divorced. Right. Uh and so you know, you have uh I think you made reference last time uh that uh there is uh there was an article that you saw or someone wrote something pertaining to or actually encouraging, I think was that from supposedly from a Christian perspective?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. It was about wearing short shorts, like you know, wear those short shorts, girls. If guys look lustfully on you in the church, that's their problem. Christians are to learn to look in in love, not lust, as if you know, exposing your body isn't going could can somehow be not a sexual thing. Um, we're wired that way, we're designed that way, we're made that way. And and in fact, in the old testament, often uncovering nakedness is just the most common way of referring to sexual activity. So you can't separate the theme of nakedness from the theme of human sexuality.
SPEAKER_02No, that is not ever an excuse for someone um you know acting out sexually towards one who is not not covered in the way that God wants them to be covered at all. Uh so you know, let's not let's not miss the point. Right. Uh there it's absolutely um an egregious uh uh position to take to say that uh you know a a woman, for instance, is to be blamed because she dressed in a way that is not biblically modest. Sure. And and so, you know, you the expectation is well, what do you expect the man to how do you expect the man to act towards you?
SPEAKER_01Well with integrity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely, always with integrity, right? I mean there's there is absolutely no excuse for a person to act out sexually towards one who may not be uh covered properly. There's absolutely no excuse. That's an egregious uh error of of thinking and reasoning. Uh with that said, though, it's also equally an error to say that one can be can be exposed, uh, their nakedness can be exposed and uh it not be sexual. Uh it can as if it can be sexually neutral or amoral. It's just that's just simply not the way humanity is is made. And so I think we need to be aware that culturally there is an attempt uh to divorce nakedness from sexuality. And and then of course, uh you know, we're all very well very well aware that there's also attempt to just remove the shame from being naked and sexual uh as well. So there's there are all sorts, all of these are perversions of God's plan for uh for marriage, for sexuality, for nakedness, for uh being properly clothed. All of these are various kinds of perversions. Uh, they've been around obviously since the beginning, because we saw that in Genesis 3.7. And uh, you know, we we should not expect that that would change, uh, certainly in this age. Uh so that that's an important, I think, preface to now talking uh more about what does the Bible actually say is nakedness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I wish we had a neat little definition of nakedness in scripture, but what we do have are various places where Israel's universally recognized and understood meaning of nakedness is is given evidence. So again, Israel would have understood what it what nakedness was. That's why it's not as neatly defined, but there are some places that give us windows into how it was understood. And um, and one of those places is in uh is in Exodus with the law and the laws related to priests. So do you want to start correct there?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean I would say is a simple uh understanding of at least the concept of nakedness is that nakedness is being uncovered. Uh that that idea in Genesis 3.21 is synonymous with the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Uh Adam and Eve were naked. What did they need? They needed covering. Uh so God you know made you know coats of skin, garments of skin, and he covered them. Uh so he he uh covered their nakedness. So those two concepts you're either naked or you're covered, uh, I think are important to understand. So the question then is okay, so what must be covered for uh the shame of our sin, the symbol of our sin, nakedness, uh, to not be exposed. And uh there there are typically two parts to this. Uh one is actually in Genesis 3.21, uh, to understand what those garments are that God made for for them. And I there may be some translations. I know uh another word for garment there uh is coat, a covering of the torso, which we'll talk about. And then you made reference, I think, to Exodus, uh, which uh this comes up actually a few times in Exodus, but in particular in Exodus chapter 28 and verse 42, where God is giving instructions to the priests uh who are because of the nature of their duties, they're required to ascend uh some steps up to uh on top of an altar. I've been to Israel and I've actually uh ascended those steps, and so I there it is actually quite high. I'm guessing it's probably uh I think the one I was on was about five feet in the air. And so uh if you are in priestly garments, uh which are open at the bottom like a robe, uh, and you are you know five feet in the air above uh others who are coming forward to to approaching the altar, uh you obviously have to be aware of what are they uh what what are you exposing through the open-ended garment. And so knowing that, uh the instruction is given that they are to wear uh undergarments uh that are to cover their flesh. And uh Moses instructs them, uh the law instructs them that those undergarments are to reach from the hips to the thighs. And so there we have some instruction on uh the lower extremities. So Genesis 3 21 talks about the upper extremities, the uh Exodus 28, 42 talks about the lower, uh the lower body.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think it's important to notice how in Exodus this theme of nakedness is a regular concern. Um, you know, you mentioned Exodus 20, 26, uh, you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it. So there's a concern here that we would not engage in activities that would compromise or expose our modesty. And I think of you know, situations today where we can participate in activities like going to the beach or whatever, and well, just because we're at the beach, all of a sudden we throw off concerns for modesty or we can just dress like the world. Well, no, we don't compromise our modesty. You know, in fact, we avoid or we're very careful about activities where that would be compromised, or we take proper measures to make sure our modesty isn't exposed when we we participate in those things. And then in in um chapter 28, again, this is where nakedness gets defined clearly. So Exodus 20, don't expose your nakedness by going up on the steps. You might ask, well, what is that? Or are uh is God concerned that they're going to expose just their crotch, their private areas? And here we have the priests are no, they're actually supposed to wear undergarments that cover their naked flesh. They shall reach from the hips to the thighs. So the naked flesh includes not only the crotch, but that which immediately proceeds with it, which is the thigh area. And you know, I think if we're honest, um the thighs are are even today sensualized. It's an area that's that's very sensual, that's very associated with sexuality, and it's the direct, it's it's what's directly attached to that innermost private area. So um here we have a a clear definition of the lower part of our nakedness.
SPEAKER_02It is, and I think uh for me and my understanding, uh the the preposition here is is crucial. Uh so when it says that you know their nakedness is to be covered, or this this undergarment they're to to make to cover their nakedness is to extend from the hips to the thighs, uh that that word in English to is uh uh a uh Hebrew word from the Hebrew word uh preposition in English it would just be a d ad. And it means uh uh means up to and including. And at least in my understanding, that that's that's pretty crucial because you can say, you know, when we say you know, extend something to a point, it may or may not include that point, it just may be up near to. Uh but this is uh, as I understand it, intended to mean that the thigh is to be covered up to and including. It's the same same preposition, it's used you know hundreds of times, of course, through the old testament, but it's one that is included in uh or used with uh Lot uh when Abraham and Lot uh part ways. And uh in Genesis 13 it says that uh Lot uh that he he in the King James pitched his tent toward or to uh Sodom. And uh what that means is uh that he he moved to Sodom. That's what that means. Uh he he moved as far as Sodom. So uh it's up to and including uh that village. And so here I think we're to understand it the same way, it's up to and including the entirety of the thigh. Uh the thigh, in my understanding of anatomy, being um a a muscle, right, that extends from the hip to uh to the knee.
SPEAKER_01Right. Not necessarily including the knee, right?
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah. So again, I we might need you know, someone who has more expertise in anatomy than I do if we want to be uh you know really, really exacting on it, but um you know my understanding is that the thigh muscle is uh what um what stretches from again from the hip to the knee, and I cannot tell you exactly what it attaches to, but uh, you know, it we know it doesn't extend below the knee. Um so you know, of course, the you have the you have your you know a complication of of bones there as well. Um and so you know I've I've heard people say, you know, well, there's the thigh bone. Uh there's the thigh, you know, so do you go by the thigh bone, which is not actually the technical word for it, um, or the thigh muscle. Well, yeah, I I don't know. I don't know what they had in mind exactly here, but clearly we're in the vicinity of the knee, not in the vicinity of the buttocks.
SPEAKER_01You know, I can hear somebody thinking like, you're all caught up in this minutiae, but one of the reasons why I want to get clarity on this is because it's it's actually freeing. It just makes it simple. If if the standard is the thigh, it's like just cover your thighs. People say, well, what about shorts? Is your thigh covered? Like it's just that simple, you know. If you can wear shorts that don't expose your thighs, I have no problem with it. But, you know, unfortunately, I've seen a lot more of other men's uh thighs leading up pretty high to their crotch when they're playing volleyball or whatever, uh, because they're wearing shorts that when they're standing straight, barely reach their knees, and then you know, they're jumping around. It's like, I don't want to see that. So it actually, if you can get some clarity on what exactly biblical nakedness is, it helps to simplify the issue of what kind of clothing can be worn. Because instead of just subjectively picking and choosing a list of clothing that I happen to like or not like, it's like, okay, well, here's a baseline. Make sure your thighs are covered. That's a pretty, pretty simple, pretty basic uh, I think, place to begin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then there's an there's another point in this passage though, I think, that is also somewhat telling, and that is that this piece of of clothing is is called an undergarment. It's something that they wear under their uh in this case that we're talking about the priests, but this would be this is this is defining nakedness, so it doesn't matter that's a priest or somebody else, but in this case, uh the uh style or the length or the looseness or whatever it may have been of their robes is not sufficient to cover their nakedness in every situation. And so uh that's why they had to have this undergarment. And so that tells me that you know, probably knowing that they were wearing robes, uh, that likely uh the looseness of the robe, uh, and perhaps the length as well, uh, did not uh uh provide sufficient covering. And so the undergarment, of course, is going to be um uh Um a bit more fitting. And you know, whether it was as long or not, as you know, it wasn't undergarment, so it probably lengthwise, you know, did not extend lower than their outer garment, uh, but it would have been uh more uh fitting to the leg in this case.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we don't wear robes today, um, but the closest uh most similar uh item of clothing would be like a woman's dress. Uh and I know a lot of women don't wear dresses, but women still wear dresses, um, even in broader culture. So it'd be like, you know, if you're wearing a dress that reaches to the knees or just below the knees, and you're gonna be engaging in activities that your dress might come up, which I've been at uh gatherings where you know a woman's walking around in a dress and you wouldn't think anything of it, but she sits down and it rides halfway up her thighs, and I've got to look away because I can see clear up into her inner thigh and maybe even up into the crotch area, right? So it's like, you know, wear something that makes sure you're not compromising that area that God calls nakedness, even if that's wearing something underneath your skirt that's gonna protect or your dress is gonna protect it. Or with men who are playing sports and are wearing maybe longer shorts that cover their thighs when they're standing, um, I've seen wear like a you know, a tight undergarment that would protect that area uh so that it's not exposed if they're jumping or moving around. So it could apply to a man to a man as well. Um but you know, I think the most direct parallel would be to like a woman's skirt or dress.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Yeah, so I think again, we're in a conversation here in Nexodus uh 28 that deals with you know the lower body. And uh, you know, we still have the upper body, which is uh what Adam and Eve missed the first time, right? Uh do you have any further comments you want to make about before we move on to the upper body?
SPEAKER_01Um there's there's other scriptures that you know clearly indicate that obviously the the private parts need to be covered, the crotch and the the chest. That gets into the up, you know, the upper body. But there's a verse in Isaiah which clearly states that nakedness includes the buttocks. Um I lost the reference here in Isaiah. I think it's 20 verse 4, maybe. Um but it states that the naked flesh includes the buttocks. And so, you know, you take like a uh a one-piece bathing suit. Well, that's better than a two-piece-piece bathing suit. Okay, good, but you're still exposing most of your buttocks. I mean, you're wearing a gov a garment that that hugs your crotch area and and exposes your full thigh and then a large part of your buttocks. Um, you know, if we are really honest with ourselves, is that modest? I mean, I don't understand how that could possibly be construed as modest. It's more modest than a bikini, but that doesn't make it modest. And it it to me just certainly violates um, you know, a very basic biblical understanding of what nakedness includes and how it ought to be covered. So I think we can say, as far as the bottom part of the body goes, you've got your your crotch, your private parts, you have the buttocks, and you have the thighs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I I've I've had the question before. Well, didn't God um didn't God command uh slip my mind again, uh, was it Isaiah to uh you know expose his nakedness uh for a period of time. And um you know, so doesn't that show that you know maybe this is not as absolute as what uh you know it may sound to be? And and I would say, yeah, there's there's a reason that God did that, and that was as a symbol of of the the nakedness of Israel. And it is it's actually God re-enforcing the shame of sin and and the shame of um and that this is the exception, that the exception proves the rule, right? That shows demonstrates the rule.
SPEAKER_01You don't want to follow Isaiah. The whole point is that this is a this is a shameful thing that's a symbol of the mass of sin, of shameful sin that Israel's committed. Why would you want to take that? Um, you know, that follow that example. God can tell anyone to do anything at you know at any time. He's God. Uh He allows this unique exception to make a very specific point in a very unique time in history. The point is not, well, now it doesn't matter, we can expose our nakedness. The point is the very opposite. Nakedness is still a sign of shame and ought to be covered properly. And a righteous person wouldn't uncover their nakedness.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, yeah. That was what you were referring to. I guess Isaiah 20. Uh Isaiah 20, uh, verses two through four. Uh the Lord spoke to Isaiah, go and loose the sackcloth from your waist and take off your sandals from your feet, and he did so walking naked and barefoot. Then the Lord said, As my servant uh has walked naked and barefoot for three years as a sign and a portent against Egypt and Cush, so shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptian captives and the Cushite exiles, both the young and the old, naked and barefoot, with buttocks uncovered the nakedness of Egypt. So uh yeah, clearly that's God is saying this is not what you want to happen, but this is going to show that you are captive, you know, that you are that you are enslaved to others. Uh, it's a symbol, again, a symbol of shame.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, and we talked about this in the last episode, too. If people want to go back, uh, you know, the connection between Adam and Eve sinning and then their nakedness being uncovered, exposed their shame exposed, and then how uh once again uh Israel sins and their nakedness is uncovered. So uh we discussed that earlier. But you know, the point here is obviously in Exodus 20, or I mean Isaiah 20, the the point of this passage isn't to give us a definition of nakedness. We understand that. But what this passage does is it tells us what Israel understood nakedness to mean, so that when we come up to a command that we're to cover our nakedness, we know what that is. Otherwise, it just becomes totally subjective, and I can just define it in any way I please.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Before we leave um the uh you know Moses recording of the law of of God, uh I'm actually turned over to to Leviticus, and in 18, you have this uh this phrase that is repeated, you know, not to uncover the nakedness of, and it goes through you know different relationships, you have father, mother, brother, sister, uh, you know, neighbor, so on. And uh that, of course, is that that phrase is um I I think reaffirms that in the biblical sense of uncovering nakedness, uh, there is a sexual uh connotation to that. Uh again, meaning and this is shorthand as I understand it uh for not having sexual relationships with them. And and so there is this connection, deep connection with uh in Israel's mind between exposure of nakedness uh generally being associated with uh sexuality. Um and I say generally because uh there's um you know there there are exceptions in scripture, uh, but generally understood the exposure of nakedness is an exposure of one's sexuality uh that is uh done so in a shameful way. We are sexual beings created by God to be sexual beings, that's a good thing, and it is likewise good for us to use our sexuality in appropriate, not inappropriate ways, and uh covering ourselves properly uh assists us in being properly sexualized beings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So Leviticus 18.8 says, You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife, it is your father's nakedness, and that reminds me of um first Corinthians, is it seven or is it eleven, where it says that in the Lord, you know, we don't know it's seven here. Here we go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, seven.
SPEAKER_01Um the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. So God has created us. We each have nakedness, which is this area of our body that's special, that's more intimate, that's that's you know, more sensitive. And that is a very special part of our body that when we get married and enter into a covenant relationship now belongs to our spouse and them alone. I don't want my wife going to the beach and exposing her inner thighs. I don't want her exposing half her buttocks. That belongs to me, right? And I think my wife feels the same way about me. Um, if I get too close to the window and I'm not properly dressed, Jonathan, you know, get away from the window. She doesn't want the world to see me. That's that's something that's special. And we just lost that in our world. We just we're so we walk around so exposed. Um, it's like hardly anything special or sacred anymore. And this comes back to this idea of modesty and propriety, yeah, and and it's like we want to protect and preserve that because it's good and because in its proper boundaries, it's special and it's intimate and it's sacred.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that's an indicator of a of a larger lost of modesty, not only in how we expose how one is exposed themselves, but just a larger sense of uh you know, there there are, you know, there are men who would say, you know, I want my wife to expose so I can you know be proud and show all the other guys you know who I have, that sort of thing. That's a a larger sense of uh loss of modesty, right? That that's that's pride. That is that's selfishness, that's self-centeredness. And and so I think all of this is is part of the challenge that we face as a culture, and uh is is so much uh so much a portrayal of Adam and Eve in in Genesis 3.7, where they they they think that they're sufficient and God comes along and says, no, you're not properly covered. Uh we we often are the last ones to recognize our own shame. And uh again, there are there are people, even even Christians, who you know quite ignorantly um you know expose their shame, and uh just because that's the sort of culture we live in. And yeah, I still think though that there is still a recognition, generally speaking, a a bit of common sense that says, you know what, there's you know at some point there's a line that's crossed. And everyone may not understand that line the same way, but there's still among Christians an understanding that there's there is a line exactly where that line is. Uh people may different differ in their understanding, but we're saying, you know what, God actually does give us uh maybe a little more definitive lines uh than than what we've acknowledged in the past.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. For the sake of time here, let's let's move on to the upper body. We talk about the lower body, let's talk about the upper body. Right, right. Um, the upper body is a little a little more difficult, and I think the reason for that is that everyone in Israelite culture wore a shoulder-hung garment that covered their full torso and then ended with an open bottom. So very naturally, there's going to arise more issues of modesty related to the bottom part of the body, um, because you're wearing a garment that's open at the bottom and goes to a certain length. So we see more information about that. Um, and also because on both men and women, um, the most sensitive, the most private part of your body is in the crotch area. But with the upper body, I still think there's things that we can that we can observe and that we can infer from scripture. And first of all, just the fact that um that the garment that God provided for them and the garments that God's people always wore were garments that were hung from the shoulders and covered the full torso area.
SPEAKER_02Right, yes. And uh I think we can go to uh to history here, um, history of Jewish understanding, history of Christian understanding, to see what at least common practice has been as well. And although there is some variation, uh, particularly in regard to to the length of, like, say, sleeves or or extension of uh, say our shirt bottoms, um, you know, how far they they extend and so forth, um, yeah, there there is some variation uh in that. But generally speaking, you know, we're talking about a garment. I think you use the the phrase shoulder-hung garment, uh, that um historically the understanding has been that it had sleeves and uh that those sleeves were part of the uh covering of the protection of the torso.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you know, on a woman, we have um biblical descriptions of a woman's breasts being associated with her nakedness. So I think we all understand that a woman's breasts need to be covered and that that includes the full breast, including the cleavage, right? Not plunging necklines that expose the chest. What would you say? How would you address like the question of, well, what about sleeveless shirts, those are shoulder hung, that expose the underarms, or what about crop tops that cover the chest area but expose the stomach?
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah. So yeah, the scripture is is not explicit, at least in uh the language that uses here between Genesis 3 and Genesis 3.21. Uh, but this is this is my understanding, putting the those two together, understanding that first of all, Adam and Eve made themselves loincloth, so that's the lower extremities, and then God comes and and covers the upper. And so I have understood the two pieces of clothing to be comprehensive. In other words, they were uh Adam and Eve were dressed in such a way that uh God extended upward the clothing that they had made themselves by covering the torso. Yeah, so let actually let me make it uh clearer here, just uh to compare what Adam and Eve did in Genesis 3.7. Uh, because I don't want to imply that what they made for themselves was even adequate for the lower extremities, because it seems to be that this was a a belt or apron that probably did not actually achieve the standard that uh God gave in Exodus 28, 42, where uh it extended the full length of their thigh. Uh but I think what we have here is we have God who is covering them completely and properly in verse 21, and special attention here is uh given uh to uh the fact that this is a this is a a coat or a garment that is placed over them, again, uh you know, shoulder hung, and uh we can presume from the standard that God gives us in Exodus 28 that that extended from the shoulders to the knee at least.
SPEAKER_01So let me see if I can summarize what you're saying here. So in Genesis 3:7, Adam and Eve make loincloths that could be translated as a belt or a girdle. This is a garment that uh goes around the waist and covers something of the lower body, maybe just the crotch area, maybe a little more than that. It probably wasn't even sufficient to cover the bottom part of the body. But the point is that when God clothes them, he doesn't just give them a fuller loincloth or a or a kilt or a or a skirt, right? Uh a robe that just covers the bottom part of their body as if it's okay for them to walk around shirtless. Um, he doesn't just give Eve a garment that covers her torso as if it's okay for Adam to walk around shirtless, but both of them receive a garment that covers their chest, their torso, in fact, their whole upper body from the shoulders down to down to about to the knees, at least. Um certainly cut would have covered the thighs, um, given what we see other places about uh what nakedness is biblically.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So when it comes to us, yeah, it's a little harder to say you shouldn't wear, say, a uh shirt that when you lift lift up your arm, you can see the underarms. But it kind of seems like that's um a little careless if the garment that God gives is to cover the upper body. Your underarm is part of your upper, your chest. It's an extension of your chest, just like the thighs are an extension of your of your crotch area. And so it seems like prudence, good judgment would lead us to conclude cover the thighs in the torso. If you do that, you know, you're you have covered the biblical area of nakedness. Don't wear tank tops, don't wear plunging neck shirts, don't wear crop tops, don't wear short shorts, don't wear a one-piece bathing suit. And, you know, you're pretty much good. And there's there's actually a lot of room for liberty there. I don't think the biblical data, you know, settles the question of, you know, men shouldn't wear shorts. I think it's just whatever you wear, they gotta cover your thighs. Um, that, you know, some people want to say you can't wear short-sleeved shirts. And again, I think that's that's pretty hard to prove from it's pretty pretty hard to prove from scripture. Um, I think that's pretty, that's that's getting to be legalistic where we're trying to legislate beyond what can be reasonably inferred from scripture. If your torso is covered, if your thighs are covered, I think that that is is sufficient to cover the area that is either stated implicitly or explicitly as comprehending biblical nakedness.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that seems to be sufficient for God. I mean, that's he is uh he is the one who is who is you know revealing this to his people uh in Old Testament Israel. And since this is rooted in the uh the events of Genesis 2 and 3, uh the creation of Adam and Eve, uh as first of all innocent, and then in response to their sin, uh this is something that uh uh extends uh this this principle, this practice, both extend uh to people in all places. Um there's I I don't believe there is any reason to believe that God's standard for the symbol of uh having our shame covered has changed. Um that's I I think the that burden would be on a person, uh the burden of proof would be on a person who would who would say that it has. Um so I think this is grounded in certainly grounded in uh events and a theology that is timeless uh in regard to Adam and Eve and their sin. Uh it it's extended through time uh to us today. And so uh I think we have to uh say, you know what, this is this is God's plan, and it is uh I like the phrase you use, it's a gospel symbol. And uh when this world is you know purified and we are glorified, and you know, if if the the rules change at that point, uh so be it. But uh what what we do know is that uh Christ uh through his redemption uh will restore uh this world to such a place that uh you know we will uh we will go more than just return to the shamelessness that Adam and Eve experienced, but we'll be beyond where they are as well, and uh experience the fullness of humanity. In an undefiled way, and not defiled by shame, not defiled by sexual perversion or any of those things. But that does not happen in this age.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think it's just so important in this discussion that we don't become uh like Adam and Eve, where we just try to take matters into our own hands and define nakedness for ourselves and embrace a standard that really is just a reflection of the culture around us, which doesn't share our value of modesty. And on the other hand, that we don't become like the Pharisees and try to go beyond what can be reasonably um read or inferred from scripture and uh try to just resolve the issue by getting stuck in a by golden standard of modesty. The fact is that there have been periods in history like the Victorian era and even the early 1900s where you know expectations for modesty uh frankly were even beyond what probably God requires in his word. Um, you know, not being able to expose the ankles, right, in the Victorian era. That was seen as shameful. So standards change over time. And as Christians, we can um take into consideration those cultural changes, but we have to have a baseline for modesty and a baseline understanding of nakedness, so that if our culture goes to the other extreme where they're walking around without any clothing, we as the church still have a basic standard that we're gonna hold to no matter what, um, wherever culture goes. Um, otherwise, we're just following, you know, the winds of cultural change and we end up being like Adam and Eve, where we're just doing what's right in our own our own eyes. So it's about finding that balance and trying to be biblical, um trying to search scripture to faithfully uh understand what nakedness is, how it ought to be covered, and then ultimately how it points us to Jesus Christ and to the gospel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And uh again, I think we ought to uh ask ourselves repeatedly where is my standard for modesty coming from? Uh who is defining nakedness from me? Am I being attentive to what God's word says and doing my best to understand it properly and and practice it? Or am I just following what uh the the has become a sort of common sense around us in our culture, which I think is quite uh foreign to what scripture says. Um so there there are definitely some some follow-up to conversations that I think are are worthy of having. I think it's worth uh giving some attention in a later episode uh in regard to how to actually present this and actually teach and disciple people through this uh and understanding how uh this may play into local church uh discipleship and membership and and belonging. Uh but I think we do have to recognize we live in a world where this kind of conversation is actually quite foreign. Uh but if you're having the conversation, uh if you're a pastor or a teacher and you're at least having the conversation, I think that is uh very valuable. And uh if you are raising the the pertinent scriptures and engaging and people are engaging with a determination uh to live life God's way, uh I I think that is uh where we have to start as as Christians uh to make sure that we are uh moving along in the direction that God would have us to go.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Don't avoid the conversation. Don't avoid the conversation because you're on the far right and you've just shut down all discussion because you're afraid of of sliding, uh, of the slippery slope. Don't avoid the conversation on if you're on the left, so to speak, uh a more loose standard because you don't want to get caught up in legalism. Um, both sides can have reasons why at the end of the day they just stop talking about it. But faithfulness to scripture means that we've got to have these hard conversations. And especially church leaders, we can't shy away, we can't drop the ball because these things really do matter and there's gospel significance at stake.
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