Holy Joys Podcast
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Holy Joys Podcast
Four Questions About Ordination
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Johnathan Arnold and David Fry discuss four questions about ordination:
1. What is ordination?
2. What does the Bible say about ordination?
3. Who should be ordained?
4. Who has the authority to ordain?
Ordination is appointment to a church office.
SPEAKER_00Ordination answers the question of who is authorized or appointed to speak on behalf of the people of God.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_00Hi, welcome back. Today we are talking about ordination, and we are going to return to our four question format that we've used a few times. And we have uh some, I think the four most important questions, maybe most comprehensive questions, uh, that I will uh pose today. And Jonathan, you've done some writing on this. Uh you have at least one article, I believe, that is available on uh the Holy Joy's website.
SPEAKER_02Uh not yet, but maybe we'll be at some point. Okay, we'll be. All right.
SPEAKER_00Well, I've I've read it at least. So um so we're gonna we're gonna to delve into that and then uh maybe from this uh you will uh publish some resources there as well. So hey, let's just dive right into this. You ready?
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00All right, so ordination. Uh I will not assume that everyone who listens to our podcast podcast uh is uh familiar uh with exactly what ordination is. Um my guess is that many have have at least probably seen or have witnessed uh ordination, but they're not really sure what that all means. So let's just start with this question. What is ordination?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think the simplest definition that I can give is that ordination is appointment to a church office, uh, and it's a formal appointment to a church office. The uh Book of Church Order in the PCA gives a fuller definition that it is the authoritative admission. So we're gonna talk about authority and why authority is so important here, but it's the authoritative admission of one duly called. So this involves making sure the person who's being ordained is duly called, they meet certain qualifications, to an office in the church of God. Um, it's it's not just an appointment to anything, but it's an appointment to a God-ordained office in his church, and it's accompanied with prayer and the laying on of hands, and that laying on of hands there is especially key, and we're going to look at that as well. Uh, and then the Book of Church Order adds this to which it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship, which uh I was just I just actually pulled up my copy of Hippolytus on the Apostolic Tradition and was reading what he has to say about the ordination of uh bishops, presbyters, and deacons. And uh this is another point of emphasis, you know, that the whole congregation gives their assent. Um so maybe that will come up as well. But the key idea here is that it's appointment to a church office. And as simple as that is, I don't think that that's how it's understood by some people today. It's understood more like some kind of a special status that some church officers have and others don't. Um, but historically it's been, and I believe biblically, uh, is the appointment to an office, and it's been likened to the inauguration of a president. So, you know, you you test the candidates uh during the presidential run, and then once that person has been elected, uh he's demonstrated that he qualifies for the office, then he has this formal swearing-in ceremony, uh, this inauguration, and that's what ordination is. It's it's his appointment. And once a person is appointed, they're ordained, they're installed to that office, they immediately begin assuming the duties of that office. And um, just to really clarify this idea, I think it's helpful to look at the Sunday service for the Methodists in North America, the Sunday service that John Wesley prepared for the first Methodist denomination, where there's two rituals. So there's a ritual for the making of elders and a ritual for the making of deacons. And these are synonymously called the ordaining of elders and the ordaining of deacons. So to ordain an elder is to make an elder, it's to make somebody an elder. To ordain a deacon is to install them to this office in the local church. So it's very local church centered. Uh, it's very much focused on appointing people to a definite work, not just some kind of status, but it's a local church, uh, it's a local church appointment that we're talking about here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there, of course, the uh Sunday service also has the ordination of a bishop as well, correct? So uh there Wesley is recognizing three offices, correct?
SPEAKER_02Methodist, the Methodist Episcopal Church, right? Yeah, so we'll have to get into the threefold office, but yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So so this podcast is not a podcast on uh an episode on the particular offices, but how one enters into the that office. So uh with these questions, I may have some sort of secondary questions uh for clarification. And uh I think I'm gonna hold off until we get down to actually our third question for some of the questions you just raised. Um so let's let's go on to this next one. Uh the next question is uh what does the Bible say about ordination, if anything?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it actually says uh quite a bit about ordination if you include um you know appointments to to an office more generally. So we have uh that in the Old Testament background where the priests are ordained. So in Exodus 29 and Leviticus 7 and 8, the word ordination I think is used like 12 times in the ESV translation. And so we have a description here of Aaron and his sons being ordained. So Exodus 29, 9, you shall ordain Aaron and his sons. And this ordination ceremony involved the laying on of hands, and this had to do with the sacrificial offering, but then as we're gonna see you know throughout the Bible, it involves the laying on of hands uh upon the candidates themselves. So in Numbers 11, uh Moses appoints 70 elders to assist him in governing the people, and the Lord takes some of the spirit that's on Moses and he puts it on the elders. Uh in Numbers 27, 18, Moses ordains Joshua as his successor, and uh again, Moses is instructed to lay his hands on Joshua. Uh and I think it's really interesting that in Deuteronomy 34, where it says that Joshua the son of nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him. So, you know, the key idea here, and we could give more examples, is that in the Old Testament we have people being appointed to an office, there's the laying on of hands, and this laying on of hands is somehow associated with conferring authority and enduing people with a special provision of the Holy Spirit to carry out their task. And that kind of sets up the uh the New Testament context.
SPEAKER_00Oh, good. Yeah, that's that's really helpful because one of my questions is uh what does you know, are are these strongly equivalent? Uh is there is there any discontinuity between the testaments on this uh matter? Uh do you see any discontinuity or are you saying full-on continuity?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I I think that's why I think why I use the word background. It provides some background for what's happening in the New Testament. And then I think in the New Testament there is some discontinuity. You know, arguably there is still some kind of endometri because Paul talks about the gift that you have because I laid you know laid my hands on you in 2 Timothy 1 6. But I think what we see at least is that those elements are present there and kind of provide a background for the for the new covenant. How would you how would you answer that question?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, I think that's a good answer that you've given. Um I think theologically, especially with Reformation theology, in regard to the priesthood of the believer, where we understand uh every believer to be in some sense a priest, there can be some theological confusion as to why ordination is even necessary at all. But I would say that's not so so in in regard to the priesthood of believers, uh there is some theological discontinuity from you know the the designated priests in the old testament to uh us being priests of in the church, but that is but there's still an uh there are still offices for which ordination is required. So that's not a displacement. There's not a displacement uh taking place through that. So I that's just one thought that comes to mind. But I do see pretty strong continuity through through the testament. And I think the laying on of hands, imagery that continues is crucial, as well as uh the role of the Holy Spirit, which you touched on. Uh, this is something that we I think overlook quite frequently, um, especially as we uh uh read about the the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament from Pentecost, uh particularly at Pentecost. Uh and we kind of forget that the Holy Spirit also empowered people in the Old Testament as well. Uh the difference between the two being uh the Spirit's role in presenting uh representing and empowering us to bear witness of the risen Christ. Uh so um, but yes, that's so the Holy Spirit's still at work in the Old Testament, gifting people in particular ways and using uh typically priests, uh uh to sometimes prophets to ordain or to lay hands on someone for a special task. And that's what we see also in the New Testament. Same concepts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's really that's a really helpful answer because we talked about before Acts 2, you know, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh. And so in the New Covenant, you know, the Spirit anoints all of us. We we are a nation of priests. And something you said there reminded me of Luther's uh open letter to the Christian nobility, where he says, Through baptism all of us are consecrated to the priesthood, as Saint Peter says in 1 Peter 2 9, you are a royal priesthood, a priestly kingdom, and the book of Revelation says, Revelation 5.10, you have made us by your blood to be priests and kings. For if we had no higher consecration than Pope or Bishop gives, the consecration by Pope or Bishop would never make a priest.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so let me mention one more uh point of continuity that I understand, and that is in a sense, ordination answers the question of who is authorized or appointed to speak on behalf of the people of God, or uh when you're thinking about the Old Testament prophets, who's authorized to speak directly on behalf of God? Uh and and so ordination in Old and New Testament is the answer to that question. Those who are uh filled with the Spirit and are uh I think you use the the Old English word, I think that was part of the uh PCA definition, uh, duly called uh to an office in the church of God. That duly just means appropriate, right? Appropriately, properly called. Um and and so in for the church, this is a matter particularly for who is authorized to uh to speak or to act on behalf of the church because there are certain roles that the church has, uh, certain actions that the church is to carry out. For instance, I'm thinking of Matthew 16, 18 through 20, and Matthew 18, 15 through 20, the exercise of the keys of discipline. Um, who's authorized to do that? Um, I'm thinking of John 20, uh 23, which we've talked about before, when Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit upon his on the disciples, and then uh and then really commissions that commissions them for a an apostolic role uh in uh that has a lot to do with uh maintaining uh the holiness of it of the church, the purity of the church. Uh so there are certain key roles I think that uh require this ongoing act of ordaining persons who are properly uh called and gifted.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you can draw uh a you know continuity between Moses and Joshua and Paul and Timothy. So Moses you know lays his hands on Joshua, and because of that, Joshua is full of the spirit of wisdom. He is now appointed as the successor, he has authority to lead the people. Nobody can just you know stand up and just decide they're going to be the leader of Israel. It has to be conferred on them, they have to receive that authority. And it's similar with Timothy, where Paul lays his hands upon Timothy, confers that apostolic authority, and now uh there's this gift of God that needs to be fanned into flame.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there really is a pretty strong connection, parallel between the laying on of hands and the filling of the Holy Spirit, right?
SPEAKER_02Right, which is why it would be, you know, holy orders would be viewed as a sacrament in the Roman Catholic Church. You've got a visible sign, which is the laying on of hands, and you have the spiritual reality, which is the Holy Spirit coming upon that person.
SPEAKER_00So you have mentioned the role of appointment in the Old Testament. We have that in the New Testament as well, right? Uh as well as the laying on of hands. So let's talk a little bit about what the New Testament says and some of the imagery that it uses.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I like to turn to Acts 6 because I think it's one of the clearest examples of ordination uh in the New Testament. And so we have this uh practical situation where the widows need cared for, and the apostles say to the church, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. And the church set seven qualified men before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands on them, and then these seven men immediately began the work that was entrusted to them, you know, caring for the widows, taking care of the church's practical needs. So this is the institution of the office of deacon or the diaconate. And we hear we see here that this office required ordination. Uh, and I think something you know very similar in the way that that elders were appointed in the book of Acts, Acts 14, 23, the apostles appointed elders for them in every church with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord. And uh, even though the laying on of hands isn't mentioned there, um, you know, we do read, uh, as we mentioned before in the pastoral epistles that, you know, Elder Timothy uh had hands laid upon him, the council of elders laid their hands on you, first Timothy four fourteen, and uh Paul says that I laid my hands on you in 2 Timothy 1.6. So we have appointment, we have the laying on of hands, we have prayer, and we have the uh the taking on of duties in the in the church.
SPEAKER_00So historically, uh, and and we saw in the Wesley Sunday service, he recognizes three orders of uh uh foreordination, right? The uh deacons, elders, and bishops. So we call those orders. Uh can you explain real quickly what is meant by that that term?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so not to bring in the catechism of the Catholic Church unnecessarily, but um, you know, holy orders is the it is a term that Protestants use, and especially Anglicans, um, and so and historically, you know, some Methodists, but most often if you hear about holy orders, it's going to be in a Roman Catholic context. So it's just helpful, I think, I think to give their definition. So they the first thing that's said, uh, why is this sacrament called orders, is that the word order in Roman antiquity designated an established civil body, especially a governing body. And then, you know, ordination means incorporation into an order. So, you know, even the word ordination that we use, it's the idea of we are we are making you a part of an order. So if I'm being ordained to the diaconate, if I'm being ordained as a deacon, it means I'm being incorporated into the order of deacon.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so there is actually a a sort of, I don't even like to use this word because it may have negative connotations, but a sort of ranking of the offices, right? So there is there is deacon, there is elder, and uh we'll get to you know first Timothy and Titus here momentarily, but uh there is a distinction as to this kind of oversight that they practice, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is uh definitely clear in in scripture itself, where the elders are said to rule, to govern, um and that's you know not the case with deacons. Deacons are there to carry out the vision of the elders. And then if you acknowledge bishops as a distinct order, um we see in you know in Ignatius, who's who's really the first one to um really defend pretty forcefully the authority of the bishop. The bishop is you know is given this uh special status as I'm talking here. I'm trying to find my book of the Apostolic Fathers, because if you go to Ignatius's letters, he gives this, he give again and again gives these really interesting, um, I wish I could remember what it is. I think he says like the bishop is Christ and the presbyters or the apostles or something, or I I I can't remember what he how he likens it, but clearly hierarchical language.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Yeah, so Ignatius is very strong that where the bishop is, there is Christ, right? Uh you know, he is the you know the bishop is the you know the vicar of Christ in in some sense. So um yeah, okay. Ignate I absolutely recommend reading Ignatius. I I enjoy reading Ignatius, he is controversial on this matter, um, and I still don't know what all I think about that, but uh it's certainly thought-provoking.
SPEAKER_02I just I just found it here quickly, Ignatius to the Magnesians. Um, be eager to do everything in the harmony of God, the bishop presiding in the place of God, and the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and the deacons, who to me are especially dear, entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ. And then in here we go, uh to the trolleyans. The bishop is an example of the father. So here uh he doesn't just say God, he says the father, the presbyters as the council of God and as the band of apostles. So, you know, really clearly elevating the bishop to, you know, hold the the orders, the order of bishop is clearly set very high above the other orders.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, so hopefully that's clarifying to those who may not have a lot of familiarity as to even the meaning of the word ordination. Uh, but that I think that's really helpful. So that takes us to the third question, and that is who should be ordained?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is a sticky one. I mean, it's e it's easy, I think it's easy to answer in in a sense, but it it's it's sensitive because There's probably a lot of people who are ordained that shouldn't be, and there's a lot of people who aren't ordained that should be. So why? Is that well? Okay. Yeah. So, okay, so if we start with what ordination is, ordination is the making of elders and deacons, uh, or if you're Episcopalian, of bishops as well, right? So it's the making of church officers. You know, I should say that. Well, who should be ordained is only those who qualify for and are prepared to assume the duties of a biblical church office. So every elder and deacon should be ordained. Anyone who's not a local church elder or deacon shouldn't be ordained.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so these are uh 1 Timothy 3. If anyone aspires to the office of an overseer, so clearly the overseer or elder is an office, right? Uh deacon also is understood uh immediately following as a uh as an office as well in the uh local church. Uh sometimes people will take lists of like you know, maybe something out of Ephesians 4, uh, you know, he gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers, or they'll find some other list that's kind of a generalized ministerial list of of uh functions and uh maybe use it to stretch it over the concept of ordination. So uh we we've talked about uh in a previous podcast, we've talked about you know what is a deacon and why do we need them. Uh we have not, I don't think we've actually recorded on what is an elder and why do we need elders. Um so yeah, I don't want to get into our questions of that, but obviously it touches a lot on this, right? Especially on this question, who who should be uh ordained. Um so let me ask you a couple of maybe secondary questions with this one. Uh one would be, you know, you said that you know there are people who you know probably should be ordained, uh, and then there are some who probably shouldn't have been. Uh, how do we make that determination? I'm I'm gonna guess that you're gonna say, you know, okay, first 1 Timothy chapter 3, you know, we have certain qualifications, and if a person is not, say, able to teach, or Titus 1, you know, if a person is not able to, you know, be trustworthy and holding on to the uh you know the word and be able to give instruction and sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it, then they shouldn't be ordained to the office of elder. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's I you know I obviously if somebody's gonna fill a church office, they have to meet the biblical qualifications. But you know, my my guess my thought isn't even so much that we have unqualified church officers, although obviously that's that's a concern. Um, and we all right want to start by looking in the mirror. It's just that there are people who not only are they not qualified for the office, they're not even filling the office at all. They're not elders or deacons, they're just lay people. They're just lay people in their church, but because they are a parachurch ministry leader, they're a Bible college president, they're a Bible college teacher, they're a seminary professor, and they're active in their denomination, they are ordained. And then on the other hand, you have people who are elders and deacons. You know, I know some who are who have been an elder at their church or a board member at their church and you know, functioning as an elder or a deacon, and they've never been ordained. And if you told them they needed to be ordained, they'd look at you like you have two heads because wait, I thought that was for the senior pastor. I thought that was for somebody who you know wanted to marry people. I'm never gonna marry anyone, right? Because when we hear about marriage, you know, I need to get an ordained minister to marry me as if all you know pastors aren't ordained. And and so my concern is just more with the separation of ordination from installation to an office in the local church.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. That yeah, that's that's really important. That's important to me too. So I I actually have seen the for actually quite a number of years now, a uh maybe a revival of interest or certainly a a renewal of Bible college professors and you know administrators who actually do carry ordination with their particular church or conference, uh be uh actually actually be more intentional about ministry in the local church. So uh I know uh the places where I have taught uh as I I all of the faculty, uh ministerial faculty is involved at the local church, uh either as you know, senior pastor or on that ministry staff in some way. So uh that has not always been true and has not even been really been recognized. But I think I'm not sure that that has happened so much because of a recognition of one's responsibilities as an ordinant, as much as how important it is for theology to be taking place at the local church and not just in the academy. But nonetheless, I think that's uh an important thing to uh to recognize, and I and that's something that's commendable to those who have been deliberate to to take their calling back to the local church in a very intentional way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, so in the question of who should be ordained, um, I you know, I do think we want to emphasize that it has to be somebody who's qualified. Uh, maybe another question that we could ask is when should somebody ordain? And and when somebody should be ordained is after they have been tested by the qualification. So, you know, again, you mentioned First Timothy 3 a few times there, but uh it says let them be tested first, then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. So, you know, part of being appointed or ordained to a biblical office is undergoing a period of testing in which you're vetted by qualifications. And that's another concern in churches where you know you hold elections to elect your elders. Um that's that's pretty concerning if in the middle of an election somebody can just nominate a name and all you gotta do is take a quick vote, and if you get enough votes, now you're an elder. Um that didn't no, that's not biblical. There's gotta be a testing period here. So, you know, who should be ordained? It's somebody who is duly called. It's somebody who has gone through this prop this appropriate process and then is installed.
SPEAKER_00Right. So many of us are part of a congregational style of church polity where you know everything's done by election, it seems. Um so that was actually a question I wrote down here earlier in regard to these last two questions we have here. That is who should be ordained, and then our final question is who has the authority to ordain? Uh, that is uh this is uh especially a congregational uh church uh where people are elected to offices, including you know, pastor and uh you know all all the pastoral staff and and ministerial positions, uh this is this is not speaking about election. Ordination is not an election, right?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00But there is still testing that has to take place. And you know, I I sit on a committee that oversees that process of of testing, examining. And uh you know, we we actually don't uh you know take official votes, we all share our thoughts and then there's a consensus, and that and that's what the recommendation is. Um so what's what is the danger of especially in maybe an independent congregational style context, what's the danger there that we need to be aware of?
SPEAKER_02Oh well, the danger. Oh my, there's so many, right? I mean, uh some some obvious obvious concerns is that um to qualify for eldership, there's very high moral requirements, very high moral standards. And so if you push elders through, or deacons even, or just church officers in general, very quickly through this election process, you know, all you need is a vote uh and and you you know you get elected, there's no opportunity to really test that person's character. Now you have somebody who has authority in the church. You know, you've just elected somebody to a position of authority, and if that person has you know a lot of hidden sin, um just you know some real glaring moral issues, then I mean that can be very compromising for the safety of the church, for the reputation of the church. Um it's just you're setting yourself up for failure, and I think we need more rigorous standards of um of testing and vetting church officers. And I know I know that, you know, even for myself, I look back on the various places where I've served and I just think, man, um I appreciate what was done, but I think it would have been helpful for me personally to undergo you know more rigorous testing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. So I have sat for a number of years on a committee, as I mentioned, who uh you know overseas are were tasked with this um responsibility of examining candidates for uh for eldership in particular. And uh and I have to recall back 20 some years ago when I went through the process, and quite frankly, uh it was not really that rigorous. Uh in fact, at the end of my exam, uh I was asked the question, do you have any questions? And my question was, uh I do actually. Um why had why haven't I been asked this question and this question and this question? And I had three or four that I posed. And um and the response was, oh, we thought that those had already been asked by a previous committee somewhere, and so we didn't bother. So so there's I think there is definitely some refining that needs to be done, uh, because I I don't know how other committees function, so I can't speak. I can only speak for myself and my own experience, uh, which may be totally unique. I have no idea. But uh I in my experience, I think that we should at least, at the very minimum, have as a template for examination, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, and go through line by line and uh point by point, go through and and assure ourselves that this is a person who upholds God's requirement for this particular office.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and all of this is prior to ordination and part of the ordination process. So I have a lot of thoughts on that. I'm sure you do as well. And I think maybe we could have a whole episode on that, and it will come up when we discuss eldership for sure. Um, but you mentioned, you know, the place of election. So uh in Hippolytus on the Apostolic Tradition, he says, uh, well, he has three sections here: one for ordaining bishops, one for ordaining presbyters, and one for ordaining deacons. But then in the sections on uh elders and deacons, he refers back to many of the things that are said about bishops. So this is what he says. He says, Let the bishop be ordained as we appointed above, having been elected by all the people, when he has been named and found pleasing to all, let the people come together with the presbyters and any bishops who are present on the Lord's day. And then Hippolytus goes on here to say that all give their consent, uh, when all give their consent, bishops, presbyters, and the people, they lay hands on him and the presbytery stands in silence. So I think it's another point that's really interesting here is that um the whole congregation is involved, um, even though this is the election of a bishop, this is something that the bishop is exercising power or the elders are exercising power and authority on behalf of the whole. And so I think involving all in the process is helpful. And this reminds me of how, in the definition that I gave at the beginning, uh it says that it is proper to add the giving of the right hand of fellowship. Um, if you're gonna ordain somebody, do it at a place where the whole local church, the people who are going to be governed by this person, that they have an opportunity to give assent to the election that's being happened. Right. And then it goes on to say that they shall keep silence, praying in their heart for the descent of the Holy Spirit. And so again, we have here the laying on of hands and the uh the endomet with the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_00That's good. So that actually leads us into the fourth question because uh we are going to consider who has the authority to ordain. But you mentioned just now, this is an important point for me, that ordination is biblically something that happens within the local church. And uh I was ordained you know at a conference, you know, and during camp meeting, so you have a bunch of local churches come together, and thankfully a large portion of my congregation was present for that, and that was it was great, it was awesome. Uh, but uh this is this really is something that is vitally important to the local church. Can you give some comments on that and then uh and then I'll throw out this question with that, who who then has the authority to ordain?
SPEAKER_02I'd rather hear your comments, but I'll I'll I'll say this real quick. Um yeah, I think definitely um if you're going to be ordained outside of the local church where you're serving, um, yeah, I mean, as much as possible, have your church present. But it's my personal conviction that I I would say it's my theological conviction uh that that ordination should happen in the loc in the local church itself. This is an appointment to a local church office. So to have that appointment happen somewhere other than the local church I think is really undermining the transfer of authority here, where the authority is the congregation as a nation of priests and doing uh you know a certain person to exercise authority on their behalf. So this comes back to what I was saying earlier about Luther, and he gives this illustration. Um when the bishop consecrates, it is the same thing as if he, in the place instead of the whole congregation, all of whom have like power, were to take one out of their number and charge him to use this power for the others, just as though ten brothers, all king, sons, and equal heirs, were to choose one of themselves to rule the inheritance for them all. They would all be kings and equal in power, though one of them would be charged with the duty of ruling. So when you up when you ordain a senior pastor or an elder, a lay elder or a deacon, you're charging them with a particular duty, a definite work, but that work is being done on behalf of the whole congregation, and the whole congregation has power and authority to depose that person if they don't carry out their duties appropriately. And by separating it from the local church context, I think we really undermine the um you know the transfer of authority there.
SPEAKER_00So it's yeah, that that would be especially true if if we understand, as as I my understanding is now, that the congregation is part of the ordination itself. So in other words, when when I say you know who who ordained me, I was ordained by you know my conference president, but by the body that was there, not just by you know the bishop. Uh it was, you know, I was ordained in part by my congregation as well. So now if you don't understand that, if you have you know, say a strong Episcopalian or Methodist background, then you might not include the congregation in that. So to summarize, uh, who has the authority to ordain uh historically uh bishops and elders, uh bishop being uh elected from among the elders, uh, have practiced ordination in the local church. And we are saying that there is authority both within the congregation in affirming one's fittingness for ordination, and then there is, I guess, uh, confirmation by the laying on of hands by the uh ordaining elders who oversee the process of examination. Okay, so let's give our summary statements here and or or maybe rather uh kind of give a bonus answer uh here to kind of cap all this off. Uh, because as you as we're talking through this, I'm thinking of you know, we're really emphasizing the role through this conversation of the local church being involved in this process, and that brings my mind to the need for the local church to be raising up and identifying persons within the congregation who are preparing themselves and being prepared to receive the call to deacon or elder. And uh I I see that as local leaders and whoever our listeners may be, whether they are pastors, elders, or or uh board members or members, uh, that we all need to be identifying uh people within the congregation who can be appointed, publicly appointed, to uh these offices, and that we are really lacking something within the church when we overs when we uh just just ignore that or overlook that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I would just want to reiterate uh that every pastor, elder, deacon should be ordained. No one should be ordained who's not being made a pastor or deacon, and that because uh elders and deacons are offices of the local church, this uh the ordination process needs to be re-centered on the local church, not be something that happens outside the local church with very little involvement by the local church and its leaders, um, so that when somebody is ordained, we understand that, like the inauguration of a president, they are being installed to an office, authority is being conferred upon them to act and speak on behalf of the whole. Perhaps they're receiving some kind of special grace, gifting of the Holy Spirit to carry out these duties, and there is, you know, understanding and assent by the whole that that this is the case.
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