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Introduction to William Burt Pope's Doctrine of the Church
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David Fry and Johnathan Arnold begin a series on Methodist theologian William Burt Pope's doctrine of the church. Read along: holyjoys.org/the-christian-church/.
These opening sections are just densely packed paragraphs, fairly short, but he is summarizing what he's going to go on to talk about for the next 105 pages. And so it's important for us to pause there, look it over carefully, make some big logical connections, and then start breaking it down.
SPEAKER_02The Christian Church is the sphere as well as the organ of the Spirit's administration of redemption.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_02Alright, we're back together to discuss William Burt Pope. Once again, we had spent several weeks working through his section on prevenient grace, and those episodes are published on the podcast, and decided to do another series of episodes on Pope's doctrine of the Christian Church, which in his compendium of Christian Theology, which is his uh Magnum Opus, his second edition, uh volume, I guess this is volume three, page two fifty-nine. And this section we also have published at holyjoys.org, and we'll link in the show notes so that you can pull that up and follow along as we uh talk through it on this episode. So before we jump in, um can you just briefly talk about um how Pope fits into uh Methodist theology? Just give like a quick overview of who Pope is in relationship to Richard Watson and others who are in the middle of the city.
SPEAKER_00Uh I think what's most important to understand is that through the first uh half of uh the 19th century, uh the British systematic theologians were the standard for American Methodism as well as British Methodism. Uh so even in the course of study here, uh ministers in training were in the early part of the century reading Watson up till um really until Pope uh wrote his volumes. And and then uh Pope in the last quarter of the century uh became the standard and replaced Watson. So uh there was about 50 years difference between uh as I recall, between Watson's publication and and Pope's. Uh I can't pull the dates exactly off the top of my head, but uh but the last quarter of the century was when Pope's uh theology, again, he's British, so uh still American Methodism is being heavily influenced by uh British uh the British theologians. Not that there is a significant difference between, say, them and um uh say like like Thomas Summers or um or Miley, John Miley, a little later in the 19th century. Uh it's just that those guys do have bring into their theology some things that are uniquely American, um and uh occasionally perhaps a little still a little uh anti-British. Uh so they'll bring in a little more politically overt uh material, uh, whereas you don't see that so much in Watson and Pope. Um but but uh that I think that's what's most important. And and Pope continued to be a standard on into the 20th century as well, and certainly stands among the uh I would say five giants in Methodist systemic theology, uh Watson being one of them, Pope, of course, the other, Miley being another, Thomas Summers uh being the other. And uh and then I would place Daniel Whedon, uh, although he did not actually write a full systemic theology, he wrote uh hundreds of articles as editor of uh the Methodist magazine, and uh and so influenced systemic theology very, very significantly as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So Pope, I think his systematic theology is probably the greatest written from a Methodist perspective. I know we both appreciate Summers. There's some things that are a bit problematic with Summers, and and then Rouston is is excellent, but you know, his doesn't really have a complete systematic theology. It's not comprehensive in the way that Pope's is. Uh, and then of course Pope has the higher uh the uh catechism of higher theology as well that kind of summarizes this work. So um, for those who are listening, especially if you are a pastor, uh if you can only own, read one systematic theology, uh Pope is you can't you can't go wrong uh to understand historic Methodist uh theology. So his doctrine of the church, um, one of the things that I like about his doctrine of the church is that um it's it's really grounded in the the trinitarian foundation of redemption, you know, planned by the Father. He starts out with God and then God in relationship to the creature, and then the mediatorial ministry of Jesus Christ, the church you know, purchased, um, and then the administration of redemption by the Holy Spirit is the context in which the church comes. There's this beautiful Trinitarian approach, and that runs all the way through uh his doctrine of the church, which we'll see, and then also is really strong in the relationship between the church and the kingdom. You know, some theologies will give a maybe devote a section to what is the relationship between the church and the kingdom, and Pope does that too. Um, but wow, almost every few sentences, right? We're talking about the the church's relationship to the kingdom. Um so those are those are two things that that stand out. Uh the way that his doctrine of the church is situated within a broader Trinitarian theology than the economy of redemption. Uh secondly, the relationship of the church and the kingdom. Uh, what would be, as we're just kind of preparing to dive in here, what would be some other things from reading Pope's theology of the church that you would say uh you should be looking out for as you read? What are things that stand out to you? Big picture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think just another comment on the kingdom is that he will use language, which we'll actually probably see here in just uh like the second page that we uh look at, uh, that the church is the manifestation of the kingdom. So uh I mean I think those two themes are uh head and shoulders above above all other things, uh themes uh here. Uh and of course, this section is uh, you know, he'll he'll he'll break it down into several sub-themes, but uh this is all leading into the final section of his uh systematic theology, uh which is eschatology. And so the church is going somewhere, and it's significant for him that this is the final mess manifestation, sort of the authoritative manifestation of the kingdom of God in this age. Uh this is a sort of a crown of human history of this age, and yet it is not a self-fulfillment. It is leading, still leading us, ushering us into the age yet to come. So there is a strong now and yet aspect of his ecclesiology.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think the only other thing that that comes to mind, and we'll we'll touch on this as we we work through this section, but he really stresses the newness of the church. Um he a high degree of continuity with God's people, uh, Israel, but that something happens uh because of the cross, the resurrection, and then the especially the outpouring of the spirit at Pentecost that makes this community have a have a newness to it, a new character to it. So he talks about uh the new community, the new name, the new congregation, the new fellowship. Um so I think that's another thing to trace. What is you know, what is Pope doing? And uh hopefully we can discuss that a little a little bit more here. But why don't we just jump in? So page 259 here starts out with a little introductory section, some kind of a summary section as he does. And the first sentence says the Christian church is the sphere as well as the organ of the Spirit's administration of redemption. So I think of Apostles' Creed, I believe in God the Father Almighty, and we have the work of creation, and in Jesus Christ, we have the work of redemption, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, you know, coming rain, and then we have, and I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, right? Right there, spirit and church, same thing in the Nicene Creed, the Holy Spirit produces the Holy Church. So the church is within the realm of the spirit's administration. He has these two words here, sphere and organ. So sphere, uh, I understand that to be the uh area in which he he's operating, right? The area of his operation. And organ is speaking more towards like instrument, instruments operation.
SPEAKER_00And manifestation, right? So we will see that uh this is a word that he uses quite often. It's not a word that we use in our uh in our uh you know the the words that we would pull out uh in our common way of speaking. Uh we don't use the word organ so much, but uh he's gonna mean by this both the instrument of the Holy Spirit and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. So uh just a cross-reference here, both in regard to uh the Christian church as the sphere as well as the organ of the spirit, on page 264, uh, under the reference, which one of the things I like about uh Pope is he will have scripture references there in the margin. And under the uh reference for John 20, 21, uh about midway through that paragraph, he says the new brotherhood. So there's another new emphasis there. Uh the new brotherhood was not molded by an esoteric influence, uh, but uh he he goes on and says, it was the Holy Spirit that shaped it into a body as fully and exactly organized as any known to man. So uh here he is uh again emphasizing that the church is the formation of the Holy Spirit. And that is what he's trying to capture, I think, in saying it's the sphere, so it's the location, but it's also the organ. It's a it's a body, it's a vehicle, it's a it's something that is organic, and that's what the word organ kind of carries, an organic sense. Uh it it's it is animated by the Holy Spirit. So it's not that the church is uh you know birthed and then sent out apart from God Himself, but uh there's an assurance right off the bat here that the church is always the sphere of the work of the Holy Spirit and an organ, an instrument in the hand of the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I don't have the cross-reference in front of me, but I think there's somewhere uh in this section, or maybe in the section on the resurrection, where it speaks of the body, the human body, uh our human flesh and blood as the organ of our human spirit. So if you think about how we have a spirit, but it's invisible. And it's our physical bodies, it's the embodiment of that spirit that makes our personal presence visible and known. And then while the spirit is in the body, it's it works through the body. Right? So I think of this thing by uh JP Moreland talks about how the relationship between the soul and the body is something like when you're in your car, and as long as you're in your vehicle, you can only go where your car can go. If your car breaks down, you're stuck. But if you can get out of the vehicle, you can continue to move around. And it's like while the spirit is in the body, the body is the organ of the spirit. It's the thing through which the spirit moves and works. Now, the spirit of God, of course, his activity is not limited to the church, but he ordinarily and primarily works in and through the church as the body of Christ. It makes the spirit's it makes Christ's presence known on the earth, and it's through the church that we can encounter his activity. So I think that word organ there is really loaded.
SPEAKER_00It is a lot of uh we read through this. That's certainly a word that we'll want to keep an eye on and uh and and see how uh how else he uses it and uh the context in which he he uses it. And let me just mention one more here. This would be on page 359 under the heading The Church and Its Relation to the World. And he says this, the church of Christ, at once visible and invisible, exists to continue and perfect the work which he began. It is his organ for the preparation of his final kingdom.
SPEAKER_02So the next sentence says that as a corporate body, the church was founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. So here we have um this language of the body of Christ uh is invested with certain attributes and notes as the representative of his agency among men. And now he's just gonna basically give a summary of each of the sections that follow, discharges its functions as an institute of worship, depository of the faith, has definite obligations, bears relations to the kingdom. So a couple key words here that he's gonna develop. Um it's not only the sphere and the organ, but it's also the agent, the depository, and the instrument, which I think agency and instrument relate back to this idea of organ, but it's the place where the Christian faith has been deposited, right? Delivered once uh once for all to the saints. And then through the church, that faith continues to be um continues to be proclaimed, and people are invited in to participate in the benefits of that redemption within the context of the church. So really, the whole uh Pope's, you know, understanding all of theology, everything that God's doing, kind of centers on and coalesces in the church as the place where the faith is deposited, and then the place through which the Spirit works to bring that faith to bear on the world and establish.
SPEAKER_00So I actually I circled the words fear and that opening sentence, and I drew lines from that down to that that phrase institute of worship and depository of the faith. Because I think those two ideas are an expansion of of what it means for the Christian church to be the sphere of the spirits administration. And then Oregon, you mentioned this, uh, I drew that line down to uh instrument for its of its or for its conversion. Um I think he's expanding on that, which is part of again what he does throughout his entire systemic theology. These opening sections are just densely packed um paragraphs, fairly short, but he is summarizing what he's gonna go on to talk about for the next 105 pages. And and so it's important for us to just recognize here are the this is the table of contents essentially for the next 105 pages. And um it's important to pause there, look it over carefully, make some logic big logical connections, and then start breaking it down.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Um, I I like what you did there. So sphere and organ. So sphere is more like the inner, the where the spirit's working. So it's more focused inwardly on the church and its life, it's worship and it's the place where the it's the pillar and ground of the truth, right? The faith is there. But it also has this outward uh obligations to the world as an instrument for its conversion. So um God first deposits the faith in the church, but then it also has this outward, this outward purpose of proclamation with the goal that people will be will be brought in. Okay, any more comments on that opening paragraph? Yeah, before we're gonna go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just to note that relationship between that opening paragraph and then uh under again this this general heading, uh Pope will often uh place uh a in in smaller print in in uh both his first and second edition, he will uh give what we might would say are footnotes to the main paragraph. Uh those are usually a little longer, and you'll find them also uh sometimes scattered throughout uh the theology. Uh but here in this opening kind of table of contents, uh you have a slightly longer paragraph uh that we'll look at here before we close this uh episode. And uh it is uh just a little more detail. Think of it as a footnote uh as we're reading it, uh footnote to that opening paragraph.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So Hope continues uh here, still in summary form, to say that uh these several branches of the one subject, which is ecclesiology, doctrine of the church, must be considered in relation to biblical, dogmatic, and historical theology. From the Word of God, so this is the biblical part of it, we gather the materials for the true doctrinal statement and make this the standard by which to test the various ecclesiastical phenomena of the Christian world. And then he goes on to say it's already been shown this is in relationship to the uh to the Redeemer, but he's stressing here the priority of scripture for our doctrine of ecclesiology, which Pope does. Um, I don't think Pope is, we've talked before about, you know, kind of bare biblicism. Uh, I don't think Pope is a bare biblicist, but Pope is his theology is very exegetical in character. And even when Pope isn't demonstrating his exegetical moves, one of the things that I have learned is that the more that I probe into what he's saying and doing, the more I realize there's a mountain of exegesis behind it. He he really is a careful, careful exeg. Um, but how do you understand? Two questions for you. What exactly is dogmatic theology? Because it's not exactly the same meaning as systematic theology. We sometimes hear about you know biblical theology, systematic theology, historical theology, and then uh practical theology, those that fourfold division. What is the difference between dogmatic theology and systematic theology? And then how does that relate? How does dogmatics relate to biblical and historical theology?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So uh you know, dogma is uh just a set of teachings, and uh uh it is uh it is used uh often synonymously with systematic theology, but it's it's the word that was used in uh by say you know Ignatius of Antioch, you know, he uses the word dogma. The word systematic theology didn't exist until much later, you know, centuries later. Uh so um what what dogma uh dogmatic theology is here, uh the way I understand Pope to be using it is that he's that's what he understands himself to be doing. So for instance, uh you mentioned that he is uh writing with a lot of exegesis behind what he's writing. So uh again, let me just take this example earlier that I gave uh from uh where he mentions John 20, uh 20, verse 21, and the margin. And again, the margins are full of scripture references. And uh sometimes he'll he'll quote the passage, but sometimes uh he's just commenting. He'll put the reference and then his comments, uh theological comments, of course, in the text. Well, what he's doing is he is showing the dogma that uh that we gain from that particular verse or or uh collection of verses. And so I understand Pope to be writing yes, a systematic theology, but that this whole work is a work in dogmatics. I so I actually understand him to be using it pretty synonymously with systematic theology in this context.
SPEAKER_02Okay, interesting. So I just looked up his um in his section on Christian theology at the beginning in the first volume there, and he speaks of uh dogmatic theology taught first in creeds, the apostles, uh, the Nicene, the Athanasian, and afterwards in specific expositions of those creeds and their individual articles. And then he goes on to speak of dogmatic or doctrinal theology, which includes both the doctrine and ethics of Christianity in their scientific arrangement with their apology and defense. In it, doctrine as taught in Scripture and dogma as taught in the church are one. So I think that's interesting because I think for him, dogma is an ecclesiastical word. It's uh because he speaks of theology in the church. So dogma is not just doctrine, but it's doctrine as taught by the church, as held by a specific body of Christians or by all Christians as something, you know, as the fruit of systematic theological reflection on uh on scripture. So maybe would that be a fair, maybe, maybe that would be the point at which to distinguish systematic theology from dogmatics is dogmatics is specifically it's specifically dealing with the doctrinal fruit of systematic theological reflection as taught by Yeah, well we could do a whole episode on on this topic.
SPEAKER_00Uh so uh dogma could be it could be viewed that way. It could also be reviewed almost in the reverse way, that our our systematic thinking is grounded on church dogma. That is, and when someone would use it in that way, what they mean is we understand uh you know biblical theology, Christian orthodoxy to be expressed in the historic dogmas of the church, meaning you know, those those teachings of for instance the the ecumenical creeds, like that's that's the dogma that is is passed on by the church. And so it can be viewed that way as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is this the fruit though of centuries of systematic reflection, sure, but then shapes future system, so it has that kind of reciproc reciprocal relationship. Okay. I think it it's helpful just to clarify what he what he views himself as doing and what the relation, what his theological method is, you know. What does this say about his theological method? Um what do you think about this statement? From the word of God, we gather the materials for the true doctrinal statement. I think the reason I hesitate is because I've seen theology done where it's almost like doctrine is just collecting a list of Bible verses and putting them together, right? Hope's doing something that's more sophisticated.
SPEAKER_00I would understand it in this sense that the Bible contains all the necessary material, all the material necessary for the church to arrive at correct dogma, uh, correct theology. So all of the raw materials are there. We have to work with it. So it's like uh, you know, all the materials for a house are delivered to us. Now we have to put the house together and uh you know understand that everything has been provided that is needed, but it requires some work to understand the structure and how things go together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's helpful. And then the last sentence there, it may be added that many topics connected with this department of theology must needs be distributed over several sections. And then I think this is this last little phrase here is really interesting in the introduction, especially those of the three offices of Christ and the consummation of the kingdom in eschatology. So three offices of Christ, that especially goes back to John Calvin, right, who is organizing in terms of Christ's priestly, prophetic, and kingly offices. And he's saying the church as the body of Christ, as the one who shares in his anointing, participates in those offices.
SPEAKER_00I I think he does a really neat uh uh thing here with uh describing or or yeah, describing the church as continuing the mission of Christ, which can be understood in short form as the three offices of Christ, and that what the church is doing is not separate from, but is it a continuation, a real continuation of an extension, I should say, an extension of the work of Christ. It continues to be Christ's work, it continues to be Christ who holds those offices. We as a sort of as a diplomat or as a representative of Christ extend those arms in a physical way to the world today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, I think of the Heidelberg Catechism, which says, you know, why are you called a Christian? And it's and it says, you know, because I share in Christ's anointing, and then it goes on to describe, it doesn't say I'm a priest, I'm a prophet, I'm a king, but it goes on to describe a priestly, you know, priestly duties, prophetic duties, and kingly duties. And I just had this uh verse come to mind in Psalm 133, too. Uh it is like the precious oil on the head running down on the beard, on the beard of Aaron, running down on the collar of his robes. And I remember sometime back, Augustine makes this comment. He he view he interprets this typologically about how the Holy Spirit anointed Christ, the head, but then that the oil of the Spirit at Pentecost runs down onto the body of Christ, the church, so that we share in that anointing, the same oil runs and flows to us. So that beautiful continuity, and of course the anointed offices, with oil being you know, the priestly prophetic and kingly offices. So Pope's gonna set that up, and that's something we're gonna want to pay attention to. All right, we're at 28 minutes. We got through two paragraphs, so why don't we we stop this and uh start a new episode? But is there any of any final comments just introduct by way of introduction?
SPEAKER_00I think uh he dives into the next section here, and I think we're ready to do the same.
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