Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Eric Himelick, Andrew Graham, and David Fry on the Asbury Outpouring
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Eric Himelick and Andrew Graham join David Fry and Johnathan Arnold to discuss their experiences at Asbury University and the theology of revival.
There was a large spontaneity to it, right? Students just really responding to what God was doing through the word and through the ordinary means of grace.
SPEAKER_00What I saw there that day was incredibly ordinary in the sense that this was all very familiar. I mean, we shared the Lord's Supper together uh that night.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I feel like the students here read that that really was important to them to realize that this isn't manufactured.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joyce Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice for a holy happy church.
SPEAKER_02Alright, we are back together on the Holy Joyce Podcast. We had an episode to kind of restart our podcasting and then went several weeks uh without releasing any episodes. I was sick for two weeks, and then we have a new baby in the house who decided to come a few weeks early. Uh, but we are back together. And uh I'm here, Dr. Fry's here. We also have Andrew Graham and Eric Heimlich joining us. And all three of these men were at Asbury um to witness the event at Asbury University. Uh, I'm the only one that wasn't there, so I'm going to let them share some of their experiences, and then hopefully we can circle around and talk a little bit about the theology of revival and what it could mean for our churches and ministries. So uh David and Eric both published articles on Holy Joys about their experiences. So, Andrew, why don't why don't we start with you? Um tell us a little bit about your own connection with Asbury, uh, why you're why you were just there on campus, and uh some of the things that you witnessed.
SPEAKER_04Thanks, Jonathan. Thanks for the opportunity to uh reflect with you all today. So I am an associate professor of graduate counseling at Asbury Seminary, which is across the street, literally right across the street from Asbury University. Um I still live in Hopestown, Florida, but I commute up here uh a couple times a year to teach. And back in July of 2022, I was scheduled, of all things, to be here this last week. So when I first heard about what was happening, uh just seemed really excited about the possibility of coming and being a part of that. And then I saw the video that uh Eric had posted on Facebook and was just so excited about uh the possibility of being here and being part of it, and then uh you know reading David's reflections about it as well. So I I came uh last Saturday and was able to uh was able to get into Estes Chapel, which is the seminary side of the street, where they were live streaming the live streaming the service from uh from Nasbury University. The university auditorium uh doesn't hold enough for the size of crowd. And so by the time I was here on Saturday, uh two chapels on the seminary side of the street, the local Baptist Church, the seminary cafeteria, uh, and the United Methodist Church were all uh live streaming services for people who had come from out of town, and they were actually simulcasting in the in the in the lawn uh the commonary in front of the university. So uh the police, I think it was the police who said the estimate that there were probably 20,000 people who were here um over the weekend, probably more than 10,000 at one, you know, at any one time. Uh so it was it was pretty pretty incredible. There were uh prayer cells, people gathered in groups of six, eight, ten people sort of in a in a huddle uh praying. There were different places where people were standing and giving their testimony, uh, that sort of thing. The occasional sort of combative street preacher or uh somebody driving through uh the main street here with music blaring or something like that. But other than those you know, really rare anomalies, it was a very peaceful and serene setting uh through the day Saturday. And then uh came back on Sunday and was in my my room at the Asbury Inn uh late on Sunday evening, and I thought, you know, I'm right here. I might as well go see if I can get into uh the university late. And so they had already by then announced that um the encounter needed to come to an end, or the outpouring, I think, is the official term that the seminary and university are using, that it needed it needed to come to an end. The logistics uh were just really complicating for this for this little town and these two uh relatively small-sized institutions. And so it may have been announced that the Sunday evening would be the last uh evening that would be open to the public. And so I stood in line for about two and a half hours and got in just before midnight on Sunday evening and was in there for uh about an hour. And again, very similar experience as the day before. Um most of the songs I was aware of. Uh there wasn't any anything new or there wasn't much new that I hadn't heard before. Uh, lots of uh testimonies that had been screened. Uh students would come up and read a passage of scripture, uh, that sort of thing, and then um, you know, some degree of faculty interaction, faculty at the altar praying for those who came forward. And so, yeah, just a real neat experience uh in both chapels Saturday and Sunday. And then, of course, I was teaching uh through the week, but still seeing people on campus uh throughout the week. And then that sort of culminated in the Collegiate Day of Prayer yesterday, uh, something that had been scheduled for uh since last May, I believe, is when they confirmed that Asbury would be the site of the Collegiate Day of Prayer. And so uh I actually was able to slip into the overflow crowd uh at Esther's Chapel for uh for last night's sort of final service. And so both sides of the street today are closed to the public. Um all the offices, all the doors are locked, all the offices are locked. Um I read the announcement from the seminary president, Dr. Timothy Tennant, basically mandating a day of rest and recovery uh because this has been uh this has been a joy for this community to host, and yet um it is a very small community to have 10 to 20,000 people all here at once. So uh such an honor, of course, that it you know, providentially that I was here this week uh for a meeting scheduled a long time ago, but being able to be a part of what's happening here.
SPEAKER_03Hey Andrew, thanks for being on here uh with us, and it's good to have uh someone actually there, especially as things have really changed um over these last few days. Well, I have uh one question that I really wanted to uh ask someone who's been there for a few days. I was just there for one afternoon. Um but have you heard any explanation as to why they are really staring away from using uh the term revival to explain these uh couple of weeks?
SPEAKER_04I I've heard several discussions on that. In our tradition, often revival is used to uh to describe a scheduled event. You know, a revival is you know a three-day or maybe a 10-day uh scheduled event where a special speaker comes and you know brings truth to a to a specific community. But uh I heard a number of people have remarked that um revival is more of a historical term that we look at later, we look back to and say, oh, that was uh that was a revival. And so I've heard different different terms used early in the in the phenomenon. And then uh I'm not sure who coined the phrase or or the methodology behind it. I know that um you know, once, once it had actually been several days, there was a leadership team uh between the two institutions and others who were sort of helping to navigate that. And the decision was uh to refer to this as an Asbury outpouring. Um I think part of that as well, it was remarked by uh, I think it was the vice president of spiritual formation at the seminary yesterday, talked about, you know, a revival sort of has a fixed ending. And this is an outpouring. This is a uh, you know, he his prayer of consecration uh you know about 1030 last night was to commission everyone in attendance as missionaries to take this outpouring back to their local communities. In fact, he uh he remarked that lots of people have said, How can we say thanks to your community? And he said, I think the best way to say to say thank you to our community is to leave. Uh you know, we are ready to return to to our uh to our mission and focus, and and we need our community back. Dr. Tenet had made similar remarks in his chapel address on Tuesday of last week that people are talking about the miracle of the outpouring. And this is the seminary's 100th year in existence, and his response was that's a miracle too, and we need to make sure that one miracle um isn't keeping another miracle from being able to work and function as it's supposed to. And so wanting to make space for what had happened, yet at the same time recognizing that this town does not have the infrastructure to have I mean, people traveling internationally. I I just a few minutes ago, a bus dropped off a group of people from South Korea who have uh signs and suitcases and all these things. There is not a hotel in this town. Um there there is one restaurant that serves an evening meal, and that's Subway. Um, so there's there's not a lot of options. They're here now. I don't know for how much longer, but um, yeah. So I I think that revival maybe has different connotations to different communities of faith. And so, yeah, I I don't know all the reasons behind it, but yeah, sticking with the term outpouring is what the official term has been.
SPEAKER_00So my experience there, um I was there on the fourth day when we uh were when it was just getting started, and so it was a little different. My experience with it, uh, there weren't uh there weren't a lot of people that uh were were familiar with what was going on there, at least there weren't a lot of reports, but I I had come back from early morning prayer meeting and was just reading some of the reports uh from some of those professors and others who were there, and just felt drawn uh to what was going on there, and so made a very sudden decision uh early Saturday morning to preempt my schedule, and my son Samuel and uh Matthew and I headed down within about 20 minutes uh of uh really thinking about this for just uh a few minutes, prayed with my wife and just felt like we needed to go. And so I just headed out there. And so when we when we arrived there, there were none of the crowds that uh Andrew you're you're describing that uh were there later. Um and at that time uh it wasn't an overrun sort of uh town. There were a few people there, but uh outside there was no one on the lawn. Uh and when we came, it was about one o'clock in the afternoon, and it was uh it was just kind of a quiet, peaceful, almost a commonplace sort of setting, and yet as I was walking across the lawn, just there was a sense of God's presence there, and just a sense of drawing. And um as we came inside, it was probably I don't know, about two-thirds full. Uh there were seats that were empty, but there were people that were standing, but there was just uh a real sweet sense of God's presence. And and so uh by the evening the the crowd had swelled to probably well over 2,000, and uh there were people that were packed in everywhere, and it was uh it was quite a quite an experience. But I was there for about nine hours. We finally left a little after 10 o'clock, uh, being there from 1 till 10, and it was just a a really an amazing time, a time that was was profoundly impactful in my life. But as I went back home, taking that uh that with me to our congregation, someone else asked me later that you know, are you planning on going back? And I said, No, I I don't really feel any reason that I need to go back. Um I I got what I came for, and uh it was just uh incredible to uh to be part of it uh there in the beginning, but I just sat down that Sunday morning and just shared from my heart what uh what I'd seen there. And uh I I just checked a little bit ago, and that little short video of just the testimony that I shared uh has been uh watched, I think, 305,000 times now by people from all around the world, and there's been all kinds of people that have uh have responded to me personally and and sent messages, and and it's been I think something that people are looking for, and that kind of uh hunger that uh that people have for God is what what I really saw there. There was just a real hunger uh on on the hearts of everyone that that showed up there. I think I saw a statistic today that they're estimating over a hundred thousand people that have come to the Asbury outpouring, which is incredible. And I think that social media has played a huge role in that, in that there are people that have been able to find out about this quickly and have come, uh, which has been uh both a challenge for the local community uh being inundated, but also a tremendous opportunity for the gospel.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Eric, thank you, and and Andrew as well. I think your perspectives are very, very insightful. And uh just to hear some of the things that you've heard there on the ground, I think are insightful as well. And I want to ask Eric a question here, uh especially because he was there quite a bit earlier in uh this uh two-week period. Uh and uh he uh uh like I experienced uh felt uh a uh compelling to make the you know trek down to Asbury and to uh see firsthand what was happening and and out of a sincere desire to participate in uh what some people were calling revival and an outpouring of the spirit. Uh and I think there is an at one level that is natural to being a follower of Christ, that you're hungry for the spirit. And so when you hear about a special moving of the spirit, uh there is something drawing to that. Uh but Eric, do you think uh that there is um on top of that or beyond that, do you think in uh sort of our modern spirituality, is there a sort of uh general religious mystique that has uh kind of crept into uh Christian theology as well that goes beyond just the normal drawing of the spirit to where people uh will so quickly uh maybe adopt a place as a sort of Mecca uh that they have to be there in order to experience uh the person of the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there's a danger of that for sure. And uh I think that's one of the things that I really appreciated about uh the leadership there at Asbury, and that was that uh they were emphasizing that God is present with us everywhere, and that you can take this with you wherever you are. And and I think that there is a general spirituality that's out there that, yes, is looking for something uh and they're not even quite sure what they're looking for. Um, but I do think that uh it's an opportunity also. You know, we're living in this postmodern age where things are felt. Uh, you know, they're not uh they're emoted, they're not, they're not necessarily thought through. Um and but but there's so much emptiness, there's so much brokenness, there's so much darkness in our world. And I think that people are searching for answers, they're searching for truth. And uh I think that's one of the reasons why you know there have been so many people that you know have responded to this. But yeah, I think there's a danger in you know forming a Mecca, if you will, and saying, well, you have to come here to experience this in the way that I experienced it, which is not the case. Uh, God is everywhere and He can be present with His people uh in any place. But I I do think that when the Holy Spirit who is present everywhere shows up in a place in a particular special way, that we don't need to just uh dismiss that or critique it or um uh try to uh explain it away either. Uh what God's done there at Asbury is special. Uh I don't think there's any doubt in my mind about that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you for those reflections. And you know, Jesus did respond exactly to that idea that you person had to be at the temple promising that with the coming of the Spirit uh that we would be able to worship him uh wherever. Um uh so Andrew, again, your experience it was a little later uh in uh the second week, correct? Um you have some more reflections on that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I appreciate uh Eric's reflections there. And again, it really fostered a sense of curiosity for me as I came to campus. Um but when I was there, uh lines were hours long. Uh I I saw one report where uh people had said they'd been in line for nine hours. Uh I was in line. Uh the most I was in line was was two and a half hours. Um, and that was up till midnight on Sunday evening, the last night. Uh but yeah, the logistics of the town, once people started deciding how far away they uh wish to, you know, they want to become, you know. And so there were people who'd never been here before, people from all kinds of different faith traditions, uh, you know, Christian faith traditions, largely Protestant, though I understand that there were some Catholic groups who were here as well. You know, Asbury, of course, comes out of the Wesleyan Holiness tradition. And so uh lots of those sorts of groups, but liter literally from all over the world, descending on a town uh of about 3,500 people, uh, most of whom are affiliated with the two institutions here. Not all, but the vast majority of them are. And when I was uh, well, for instance, I went to uh a local church that I attended back when I was a student here 20 years ago. I attended there on Sunday morning. And in the Sunday school hour during prayer requests, uh, people who are associated with the two institutions here um had significant emotional responses to how overwhelmed all of this had been. Um, you know, there as I mentioned, there are no hotels here. There is a small inn associated with the seminary, but there's actually a Salvation Army preaching conference that was happening at the exact same time. And so the inn was full. I I didn't even stay at the inn, I stayed in an overflow section that's available for visiting faculty like myself. But uh people sleeping in tents. Um this this lady thought about uh going into her classroom and seeing people sleeping on the floor of the classroom. Um, you know, so many of the buildings uh we could not use we could not flush the toilets because the system was overwhelmed. Uh so it was, you know, there's gotta be a hundred portalets uh all over these campuses. Uh right now. So just not sustainable. I stood in line for over an hour at Subway one of the evenings. And even then, it was down to one kind of meat, one kind of cheese, and all the sprouts you could ask for, which is more than I was interested in. So yeah, definitely once the sort of revival tourism component started, people who were curious, people who wanted to question the motives, certainly there are people like that. But, you know, people who had just seen and heard. You know, I stood in line last night with a man who had just gotten saved a few weeks ago, an older man in his 60s, and said, you know, I want to be where God is, and I'm watching these videos. He may have seen Eric's video, I'm not sure. And just, you know, I I saw and heard all these things. You know, I'm unemployed right now. I've I'm I'm on a disability. And I couldn't think of any reason why I couldn't come and see what God was doing here. And it just seemed like there were lots of people in that. Were there some outliers, some people who uh, yeah, maybe we should question their motives for being here, uh, people who wanted to center themselves, and I appreciate the the university and the seminary very being very active in not allowing people to center themselves in this whole situation. Uh there were, you know, were there street preachers who were calling on Christians to repent? Yes, those people were here too. Were there people passing out tracts? Yes. But that was by far the anomaly. Um local churches passing out free slices of pizza, bottles of water everywhere, um, you know, that people were just giving away, the local community serving by uh getting trash from people who were standing in line for hours, um, you know, so that we they didn't trash the town. It was it was really beautiful just to sort of come alongside and be a visitor, being somewhat part of the community tangentially, um, and having been here, again, as an important part of this community 20 years ago. But uh it was just beautiful to see how the city of Wilmore came alongside and hosted these people, recognizing that it wasn't something that they could do, uh they could do forever, uh, but just wanting to experience this moment and you know, allowing that, allowing it to happen in the way that it did.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I was curious along the way how you know like the city officials were feeling about all of this and how the community was cooperating with it. I'm sure there's some mixed feelings and emotions, but that uh yeah, very interesting. So Eric mentioned uh towards the end of uh what he was sharing there about the danger of explaining away a genuine movement of God. You know, it's one thing to ask questions, it's one thing to investigate respectfully, but I've seen so much uh cynicism, and uh it's it's disturbing, it's troubling. You know, I'd rather be a little bit more a little bit naive than be a cynic. Uh at the same time, I want to test all things in an appropriate way. But but one of the accusations that that comes up and that's pretty common in the history of revivals is that it's it's psychological, that this is just psychological. And you know, we're in a Marco Polo group, a couple of us, and uh Dr. Fry, you said something in that group that I just haven't gotten away from. I've never heard anybody say it like this. Uh you said, of course it's psychological. That doesn't mean it's all psychological, that doesn't mean it's only psychological, but part of what makes community community, part of what makes the church the church, part of biblical communal spirituality is a psychological element. It's part of the way we're made. And if the spirit is working in and through that, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It the problem is when it's all psychological or when it be, you know, it turns into psychological manipulation or whatever. So anyway, not to speak for you, but can you just kind of share some of your thoughts along those lines? Uh, I think it might be helpful for others. I know it was for me.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think that's the core of it, what you just said. But uh practically, uh and my understanding here uh a few weeks ago on that Wednesday chapel, that uh ordinarily following chapel, there will be uh a brief time of continuing in prayer and and sharing, but then that usually uh goes maybe maybe 20 minutes and then people are on to their next classes. Uh but this time uh people began to open up and make a confession, and there was a a real uh move of transparency. And we know that psychologically, transparency breeds transparency, right? Um unless there is some other psychological block that would influence me to not open up when everyone else is opening up around me. And so, right, that should not surprise us, but that's different than uh someone manipulating an atmosphere or a person psychologically. Uh so uh you know, and another thing is uh you know, emotivism or emotionalism. Um you know, it shouldn't be surprising that a person who is experiencing uh a uh a sort of uh mental spiritual uh you know cleansing by through their confession would experience some relief of the burden that they've been holding in. Um it shouldn't be so it shouldn't surprise us if if they express that very emotionally, and that expression of emotion will elicit uh emotion in other people. That in itself is not uh is not manipulation. Uh but there is, and I think uh probably the leaders there at Asbury, they well, I know they certainly uh witnessed uh you know two different kinds of people arriving there in Wilmore. Uh the majority, in my experience, and probably even as late as what Andrew has experienced, uh the majority of people being very sincere and desirable for the real, the true, uh the genuine, and then a few people who have very different agendas. But uh, in my understanding, though, even really all the way up until you know last night or or whenever the last gathering was, um, there was still pretty clear distinction between those two types of people uh generally. So um yeah, I don't know if there I don't recall what all I had said in that uh private discussion, but uh I think that is uh important for people who have become perhaps a bit suspicious of either emotionalism or any any sort of psychological uh impact or influence that they see. Uh just to say that that in itself uh is not in con certainly is not inconsistent with the moving of the Holy Spirit.
SPEAKER_04As I traveled to campus uh last Saturday, I was sitting in the airport trying to see what the updates were on Twitter, uh, what sort of discussions there were about the revival, and there were a number of things that I I came wondering uh what exactly I would find. For one thing, there was often uh the phrase, we'll know this is true repentance when fill in the blank with whatever that person's particular agenda item would be, right? We'll know that this is true repentance when Asbury uh when Asbury repents of ordaining women. Um, or we'll know this is true repentance when uh they start reading only from the King James Bible, or we'll oh we'll know that it's repentance when Asbury owns up to the fact that much of this local community was developed by slaves, or we'll know it's true repentance when, right? And people kept inserting their own thing. The the other thing that I came wondering how I would experience it was the impression I received on social media, and maybe this is because of the short video clips that were shared, including ones that I shared on social media, largely were the singing. And so I I came expecting songs that I didn't know, songs with maybe questionable theology, um, maybe no preaching, but only singing and and testimonies and those sorts of things. But uh the services that I attended, and even the parts that I watched the simulcast were you know included, were heavy on scripture. Um, you know, calling forward, you know, I'd like 10 students to line up over here with your Bibles. In fact, I noticed in the service last night, not one person read the scripture verse they had from their phone. They all had the printed word in front of them and would read a passage of scripture, and then would have, you know, faculty or some other local ministerial authority would give some sort of 10 or 15 minute exhortation about what it means to repent, why it is that we come forward, why we have a posture of prayer and something that was often talked about. You know, let's everyone kneel, let's everyone huddle up and share prayer with us. Let's take 10 minutes right now. Uh so it was very clearly not the kind of emotionalism that I had anticipated. It was very much marked with with peaceful uh interaction. Um, you know, uh there may have been times, there may have been moments where outside or in other venues, you know, things began to get sort of uh have more much more of a charismatic flair. That was not the experience that I had uh in those settings. And actually in the in the service last night, uh the vice president of spiritual formation, who was leading the service on the seminary side of the street, said um, just to make sure we don't want anybody in the aisles, we don't want anybody blowing a shofar, uh, those sorts of things, which I guess indicates to me that perhaps that had happened in services I wasn't a part of. But uh yeah, I heard strong presentation of the gospel and strong appeals for people to either come forward to repent of sin or to accept Christ for the first time. And if you weren't doing either of those, then to stay in your seat or kneel in prayer for those who are perhaps being confronted with the truth of the gospel for the first time. The idea that repentance and genuine salvation was not being preached is just was not was not part of my experience at all in the hours that I was part of this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I appreciate that, Dr. Graham. It's something that stood out to me as I've listened to the leaders there at the campus sharing on social media, videos, Facebook posts, this really strong emphasis that none of this is a re is to replace or displace the ordinary means of grace. And I just recently revisited uh Wesley's sermon on the means of grace, and he he says there's three main means of grace uh the reading and exposition of scripture, the prayer, and the Lord's Supper. And I was really, obviously, there's been a lot of prayer, and then I was interested, as I've listened to your reflections over the last couple days, to hear how often you mention people reading scripture, reading their favorite Bible verses, you know, going one by one. Um, you know, a lot of that, just the reading of the Bible. Uh, you know, sometimes we don't in church hear much of that. Just hear scripture, like even without an exposition, sometimes. That's been a major part of the church's life. And then to hear that the Lord's Supper has been offered multiple times, I understand, since you've been there at the campus, that that's been a big part of what's going on. And um, this is where I believe in, I believe in revival. I believe it's it's a real possibility, I believe it's an observable historical phenomenon. I want revival, I pray for revival, but I don't buy into revivalism. You know, there's a difference between believing in genuine revival and believing in revivalism, which is where revival is the fix for everything. And you begin to displace the ordinary means of grace. So you neglect the Lord's Supper, you neglect the careful exposition of the Bible week in and week out, because everything is focused on just having revival. And uh and I think that's disturbing. So this is another thing that stood out to me in the article that you wrote, Eric, and I'd like to hear you talk a little bit more about you know, what are the things that stood out to you as it pertains to this issue of the ordinary means of grace? Because you you described, you know, things like confession, prayer, that that's really what stood out to you. That was really the heart of what was going on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it really was. And and that's the thing, is that what what I saw there that day was was incredibly ordinary in the sense that this was all very familiar. I mean, we we shared the Lord's Supper together uh that night, and uh trying to share the Lord's Supper with 2,000 people, uh, they're all uh in that uh in that place was uh challenging, but that was special. And you know, there were lots of really familiar songs, nothing but the blood of Jesus, uh holy, holy, holy. You know, there there was a rich emphasis on the church in the afternoon. There was a time of just repentance for the the prayerlessness of the church and the way in which the church has has uh and a gathering around of pastors and praying for them. And I think the thing that really struck me about all this was that there was a strong emphasis on the word. Um brother Zach shared in the evening uh from Joshua chapter two consecrate yourselves. The Lord is about to do something uh you know amazing among you. And you know, he said some of you need to cut some things off in your life. He said, uh, you know, there's some there's some things in your life that you need to get rid of. And there was a strong emphasis on that like daily walking with Jesus and not just this you know hyped up emotionalism uh for sure. And I think that's what really uh spoke to me was these were young people, many of them, who who just had a heart for God. They they had a hunger after God that was keeping them there uh uh throughout all of it. And uh I just think that was something that really spoke to me uh was that that hunger um for for the real things of God was something that was continuing and ongoing.
SPEAKER_03I I have a question for for Andrew. Uh this the Asbury outpouring uh has been a student-led uh time of of confession, repentance, uh restoration, restitution, and so on. Uh you have students who right there at Asbury as a professor. Uh I'm sure you have talked about some of this because I think you just uh are wrapping up a class uh here in the last day or two. And I'm I'm really curious if you are hearing anything from the students themselves in regard to the uh the need that they recognize for a spiritual uh awakening for the church in general that that they have been that they have been either raised in or that they've been taken into and been passed on to them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah, we we did have a discussion. Um, I think it may have been Tuesday morning in my class. I just sort of gave students the opportunity to sort of reflect. It was a counseling class, it was actually a group counseling class, so it sort of fit what we were trying to do there. Uh and there was a student who who is a local student here uh on this campus who had talked about uh coming out of an environment where uh that would fit sort of what was just referenced as revivalism, you know, and like looking for this very specific manifestation and you know, trying to uh con sort of conjure up, maybe manipulate. And and this student had said, you know, I I came to Asbury to escape uh sort of the uh the faith tradition that I had been a part of, you know, more of a more of a charismatic leaning to it and said, you know, uh that was was expressed some concern about the fact that uh more of that sort of group may have been coming to town and maybe being part of it, but then uh realizing that that wasn't what was happening, and that the institutions were very clear as to uh you know, sort of our Wesleyan Holiness heritage and what that looks like. And we're interested in these kinds of testimonies, and we're interested in these kinds of uh interactions and these kinds of songs, and you know, hearing reports from other faculty members as well talking about uh various various um Christian celebrities, if that's the right word, who had said, Oh, we'd like to come and we'd like to film this and we'd like to be a part of this. And and I've seen on social media various various people who would, I guess, would be considered Christian celebrities celebrities who had pictures taken uh inside the building, but you know, we're given no sort of platform access whatsoever. This was to be done by students, this was to be done by you know the faculty of these institutions. Uh, you know, the event last night uh was originally scheduled to feature Francis Chan. Uh, I don't know the dynamics of him not being here, but he wasn't. Uh the seminary was scheduled to have a concert from uh the artist Andrew Peterson last week. That was canceled. Uh he was the one who initiated that and said, you know, I don't want to take away from what is already happening there, and I don't want to appear as though I'm responsible for what's happening here. And so I really appreciated uh that. And the students could see that, could see, you know, that this is this is not about uh this is not about a uh a well-produced show. Um you know, there were there were mechanisms in place. Once a couple of days had passed, there were mechanisms in place so that nobody was serving for more than two or three hours. So, you know, the you know, perhaps even while Eric was there, you know, the it wasn't nine hours of the same uh piano player or song leader, uh, but they had put a mechanism in place to keep people fresh and those sorts of things. But uh at no point were outside people uh involved in the process until, like I said, the the event last night that had been scheduled since last May uh did include uh some outside folks. But yeah, I feel like the students here read that that really was important to them to realize that this isn't manufactured. This wasn't um outside people coming in. This was a student-led initiative. Uh we want to see our own, uh, as they kept calling it, Gen Z population, people group, uh, you know, generations sort of stand up and say, uh, you know, we want to come together and pray for revival collectively, but also repent of our own faults and our own failures and seek uh greater communion with God and rededicate ourselves. I mean, very much using terminology that each of us would be well acquainted with in the ways that we would use them too.
SPEAKER_03There, of course, is a history, uh, quite a lengthy history of outpourings, what people have called even revivals at Asbury, uh, in their hundred-year history and and even actually preceding uh the founding of the college there. But um I'm I'm really curious, and I I don't think we have any you know statistics on this, but how many students who have participated over these last couple of weeks uh would identify as having been uh raised within a revivalistic uh culture and what the impact of that may be. Um my guess just from having students and and even going all the way back uh to the you know uh to early 2000s when I was a student, uh seminary student, uh if if there's at all a continued uh trajectory here at to today's student, uh my guess would be that actually very few uh of the students would have grown up hearing a lot of the revival rhetoric that uh that of course I am familiar with and probably all of us are familiar with. Now, I could be mistaken, but uh generally speaking, even within the Methodist tradition, uh at least in the last 20 years, that sort of language has uh almost totally is almost totally uh uh absent in the mainline and and secondary uh denominations. Within more conservative uh churches, of course, that has still been uh the currency and the language. Uh but again, I don't think there's Probably any uh maybe that those uh questions will be answered later as as students uh reflect and testify as to what their background is uh coming into this sort of an atmosphere. Uh but I think all of us would be pretty familiar with the various rhetoric of revival. And uh some time ago I was listening actually to a sermon by H. E. Schmuel from 1987, and I wrote this down. He said, quote, revival is the solution to every problem the church has, social, financial, and interpersonal. Uh now by that, I can I can read that a couple different ways, uh, but I can imagine that at least in part what he meant was that uh when people uh you know repent, when they repent of their hidden sin, when they make restitution, when they restore and reconcile with uh with their brother, that that will have social, financial, interpersonal impact. And so far as that uh maybe what he means, I would agree. Uh however, I think that's also part of a lot of rhetoric that we've heard that revival is just the solution, that that is the solution to the church's problem. And I think that's an overstatement. And Dallas Willard in his book uh The Great Omission has this great uh little paragraph uh that I've noted as well. Uh he says one of the greatest temptations that we face as evangelicals is the idea that the personality and the heart are going to be transformed by some sort of lightning strike of the spirit. You can call it revival or whatever you want. There is going to be this great boom, and then suddenly you will be transformed in every aspect of your being. There will be no need for a process. It will be accomplished passively and immediately. And uh again, uh Jonathan and Eric have touched on this about actually not not divorcing this these special moments and days from the ordinary and consistent, steadfast work of the Holy Spirit, which again, I so appreciate David Thompson and others who have been there on site, that they have continued to reiterate that uh through these days, you know, reminding people, you know, the Spirit works in ordinary ways and and and is going to continue to work when all of this comes to an end, uh, will continue to work. Um and and that that reminds me of, and I think I can uh cover just a a huge amount of history in really three short sections here. Uh if we think of the history of revival, which is a fairly uh new term uh in regard to uh Christian theology, there are basically three waves of revival and three theologies of revival. Uh the the first Great Awakening, of course, uh the 18th century, uh taking place on both sides of the pond, uh the Wesleyan Revival, of course, in England, and then uh Edwards Whitfield led revival in America, and the theology uh of the first Great Awakening, whether it was Wesley or Edwards, all right, Calvinist Arminian, all right, very different theologies in some ways, but they both agreed revival is something that God gives at his time, in his way when he you know decides to. That was very much um the heart of the theology of the first Great Awakening. Uh a hundred years later, Charles Finney and and others uh experience what now is called the Second Great Awakening, but it develops around a very different theological point, and that is that theology became a matter of this is what the church needs to do. It is more of a man-centered, man-initiated uh something that that we do, revival will happen when we get on our knees, when we pray, when we do certain things, then revival will take place. That's you know, you claim several different promises from God that when this happens, this will happen. So that's sort of a um you know syllogistic view of revival. When I do this, this will happen. Uh very different. Now, I would say there were there were good effects in both of those awakenings, and then there were some negative effects, and again, historians have have chronicled all of that. But very two very different theologies of revival. And then you have uh what some people call the third Great Awakening. Uh it's not widely called that, but that's the early 20th century. Uh so I think it was uh, let's see, Azusa, the Azusa Street Revival, I believe, started in 1906, uh, maybe 1908, but some of there they're in the first decade of the 20th century, uh extended for a period of about 10 years. Uh the Welsh Revival uh was about the same time, right? So those are taking place uh very near the same time. And uh there I've not read an account yet that kind of encapsulates the theology of that era, uh, but I have heard um at least historians are most critical of those revivals in regard to the psychological impact and the manipulation and the stories that came out of those particular revivals, especially the Welsh Revival. Um a lot of stories uh came out of that. Does that mean that there was not a real moving of God early on? Uh no, not at all. Uh but that it became a sort of wildfire seems to be uh the case. And again, here at Asbury, they've been very cautious. They know that history, right? They're very aware of the history of of you know these movements that that uh can can easily be taken by people uh to extremes. But uh but that's just sort of a a sweeping history of uh the main historical events of revival and the theology that's come out of it. And the uh the holiness movement has tended to latch on to a a finny-type theology of revival, that uh that if revival will come when we do something about it. And uh for you know whether we agree or you agree or I agree uh with one view or the other, uh it's important to note that's a very different theology of revival than what Wesley himself had and shared with his uh you know uh reformed brothers, uh George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, uh, that uh this was something uh a little more spontaneous, uh like what we see uh at at Asbury, uh that it was uh uh there was a large spontaneity to it, right? Uh students just really responding to what God was doing through the word and through the ordinary means of grace. Uh so today uh I think uh there's either people who feel very strongly about uh revival rhetoric and the language around that, and still feel and and and believe that it that is the solution to the church's, you know, every church problem. And then there are those who tend to be very skeptical. It's it's almost hard to find people uh in between. Um and and I think uh there is a middle way, there is a way to navigate uh between between the two. Uh but the way to do that is not to call revival the solution to every church problem, because that automatically discounts the ordinary means of grace and the steady, stable uh work of the spirit in ordinary ways. Um and yet also that doesn't mean uh that we uh do not anticipate or long for or even pray for a special moving of the Holy Spirit either. I think both of those are appropriate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, last year I revisited uh Finney's lectures on revival. And very first lecture, very first point, revival is not a miracle. Uh number one thing Finney wants to say about revival. And uh he says, you know, if you get the right singers, the right preachers, he even says it helps if the weather is right. You can have a revival, you know. And uh, and you know, he says some other things too, and sometimes I think he contradicts himself. Um, but you know, so you have that one end of the spectrum. And uh, I think it was in a lecture I was watching or a sermon by Tim Keller, where he I think I've never read Martin Lloyd Jones' uh lectures on revival, but I think it's his first lecture, his first point is is in response to Finney, and Lloyd Jones says revival is a miracle, right? So I would find myself um you know being much, much more on that side of things with Wesley and Edwards. But one of the things that I appreciated actually about that uh clip I was listening to or a sermon I was listening to from Tim Keller is he says, uh, even though I would agree with Edwards, I do believe that we we should uh um pray for revival and we that we can do certain things that make ourselves good candidates for revival. Forget how he put it, but he said, uh preach for conviction of sin. You know, keep the gospel central, pray, avail yourself to the means of grace as much as you possibly can, and and trust God to send revival in his time. And he talks about uh an experience he had in a church he pastored early on where he believes that that he had a local revival and uh gives a powerful experience, actually think gives a really balanced uh theology of revival. So, with that said, we need to wrap up. Uh, thank you so much for sharing your your experiences and your thoughts here. And uh I found this prayer from Charles Spurgeon, actually, simple little prayer, but uh he preached a sermon revival, and I just want to pray this in in closing. Uh Lord, revive us again, Lord, revive me. We would each one of us say Amen to that petition. Lord, revive the pastor, Lord revive the church officers, Lord revive the workers, Lord, revive the members of the church, Lord revive the backsliders, Lord, revive those who did seem to live but have grown careless, Lord revive the church at large throughout the whole earth. Spirit of revival, come upon us now, for Jesus Christ's sake. Amen.
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