Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Todd Hains on Children's Catechesis and Martin Luther
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Todd Hains, Associate Publisher at Lexham Press, joins Johnathan Arnold and David Fry to discuss children's catechesis and the FatCat series of children's books. Todd is the author of Martin Luther and the Rule of Faith: Reading God's Word for God's People. See also his recent article "Family Discipleship: 5 Easy Things You Can Do with Your Kids."
So he's very focused on. Yeah, the goal of this is to help pastors and parents in training. It's giving parents words to train their kids. You know, you have to know your own kids. There are kids that are maybe not guilty consciences. And so you do have to come down on them with a blog a little bit harder. That's uh Gregory the Great's pastoral rule. What sort of person stands before you? A guilty conscience or someone who's stubborn? A stubborn person, you use direct language. You have done this. A guilty conscience, you say things indirectly. When someone does something like this, people are hurt.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_01A privilege to have Todd Haynes with us today. And uh co-host David Fry might be jumping in a little bit later. Um, but Todd is the associate publisher at Lexum Press and has two small children, uh five and a six-year-old. I have a newborn baby and a three-year-old. So I'm sure Todd has more experience than me and can share some wisdom. I just reached out to somebody today and I was like, everybody talks about the terrible twos. The two twos were great for us. It's the terrible threes for us. Um, but we're here to talk about uh children's catechesis. So really excited to learn from him. Uh has done some great work for Lex Impress with the Fat Cat book series, which we're going to be talking about. Uh, some of the most beautiful and just well done uh children's books. And I think you call them catechisms, is that correct?
SPEAKER_04Well, we've called it a we've called it a catechesis series. I wouldn't necessarily call it a catechism itself. It's a commentary on the catechism. Um, and we can yeah, chat a little bit about that. That is kind of a hurdle. Um is recovering this word that's sort of been lost. And when it has been regained, it's associated with something else. It's what is that? It it's uh it's not univocal, the meeting. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so why don't we just start there? Okay, so when we talk about uh children's catechesis, um when I refer to catechesis, I'm talking about teaching or instruction in the Christian faith, usually in a pretty orderly systematic way. Uh, and that often takes the form of question and answer, though not always. Um, so how would you define catecesis and you know how would you distinguish uh that from a catechism? What specifically is a catechism?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a good question. Thank you, Jonathan. And and thank thank you for the introduction and for being willing to have me here to to chat with you about about these things. I really, I really do love talking about talking about the faith with our kids. And uh even though it can be very frustrating, like all things with small children, they can also bring great joy. And they're very sweet things that the kids say, and uh it's just a great reminder to adults to see those those little minds working. But uh catechesis, yes. You're I wouldn't really change what you said about catechesis, that catechesis itself is the instruction in the Christian faith. Um, and so what is it? One of the verses that folks will point to is Ephesians 6, verse 4, that we raise our children. Uh do not provoke your children, but raise them in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. And some folks will say the catechesis of the Lord, which I think is a very lovely um way of putting that verse. And so, yeah, it's it's going through the catechism. That's what catechesis is. The catechism is the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, and the Lord's Prayer. That is the catechism. And so when you hear about other catechisms, like the Luther's Small Catechism or the Large Catechism, the Westminster Catechism or Heidelberg, or the catechism of the Catholic Church, those are all commentaries on the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, and the Lord's Prayer. So that distinction does have to be held. So uh yeah, a catechism can just be those the catechism is those very things. A catechism is a commentary on those things. Uh, and and always catechistes the goal is really to train children in the Christian faith that the Bible teaches.
SPEAKER_01So historically, uh, what would parents use um with their children? Was that the shorter version, like the Westminster shorter, Luther shorter? Was that specifically for children? Or why do we see a shorter and a longer uh produced by various reformers?
SPEAKER_04That's a great question. So some of this is with literacy, things kind of change. But so in the medieval church, for example, uh we know that churches had placards with the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, and the Lord's Prayer stuck up everywhere. And uh, at least in medieval Germany, once a quarter they had a whole week that they would go through the catechism. That was what they did. Just come to church and we're just gonna preach these things. Um so just before Luther's on the scene, written catechisms are coming down. They're tending to be. There's something there's something funny about the catechism that the more you say, sometimes the more you obscure it, uh, where you're you're like really trying to land the point, like, what does the first commandment mean? You know, let me say all these words. And what you end up doing is kind of restricting it and adding a lot of verbiage. And so the catechisms that Luther would have been exposed to as a kid would have been would have felt very law-oriented. How do you act? How do you know that you've sinned? It's these kinds of things. And I mean great detail about uh what do you do when a bell rings is a favorite example of mine. Um those sorts of things, very detailed points. And now Luther himself, and anyone that would have entered school as a four-year-old, would have had to have memorized the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, and the Lord's Prayer. And so one of the great ironies is that the Reformation could have only happened because the Roman Catholic Church was faithful in giving those words to their children. Um and so that was what Luther was up to was reforming the Church with its own catechism. Um where am I going now? So then you were asking about the small catechism, Luther's small catechism in Westminster. So I, you know, I don't know a whole lot about Westminster and Heidelberg. Those are some areas that I need to fiddle around in more. I've been fixated in the ways that they present those three things. Um, the Ten Commandments often comes later, which is really fascinating. And anyway, so Luther, when he wrote the short catechism, he had been waiting for years. He had told his students, I want one of you to write a small catechism, commentary on the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, and the Lord's Prayer, for fathers and priests. And none of them did it. Because it's a very hard task. He wanted it very short, and then he's very good with these things. So what provoked it finally, he had several commentaries like in the just before 1520, just after 1520. Uh, they they aren't quite as tight as what you see in the small catechism. But what happened is in the late 20s, 1520s, he's visiting area churches, and these people are very ignorant. I mean, the pastors are insanely ignorant. So Philip Langton asked one pastor, how has preaching the Ten Commandments gone for you? And the pastor said, I don't have that book. Um, somebody else was asked, uh, who are the members of the Trinity? And they said, the Pope, Mary, and Satan. And so if you pull up the preface to the small catechism, I mean, I have it here. It's uh let's let's take a look.
SPEAKER_03It's better for me just to say what the words are rather than try to remember if they oh this one they omitted what the original thing was. Let's see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, while you're pulling yours out there, David is able to I was just saying while you're pulling that out, that David Fry jumped in. So uh hi David, good to have you with us.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Hi, David. Yeah, so here's how the preface to the small catechism of 1529 starts. Grace, mercy, and peace in Jesus Christ our Lord. The deplorable, wretched shortcomings that I recently encountered while I was a visitor has constrained and compelled me to prepare this catechism. Uh or a Christian instruction in such brief, plain, and simple version. Dear God, what misery I beheld. And then he just kind of goes on for a while. And then it's very funny, in a certain way, it's very characteristic Luther. But then he goes and just explains really great pedagogy, where he says, this is how you do this stuff. You pick a wording of these texts, and that's your wording forever. Don't change it, just leave it. Have the kids memorize it, have the adults memorize it. Then next, have them memorize the explanation of each of these things. And then after that, they are free to try to restate these explanations in words, in different words. This is just classic pedagogy. Uh you'll you'll see it all over. And yeah, I mean, you see it today with the the classical schools coming back. So he's very focused on yeah, the goal of this is to help pastors and then the larger uh pastors and parents in training. It's giving parents words to train their kids. And then the large catechism goes into more detail, uh, does some defensive stuff. If you look at the small catechism, it's about 4,000 words. It's a really clever repackaging of a ton of Bible verses. It actually has taken me a while to recognize just how much that's the case. Um, and and then in the early things, he really was emphasizing that the catechism, the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed and the Lord's Prayer, is the Bible's own commentary on the Bible. And so you'll see, like in the section on the sacraments, on baptism, forgiveness, and uh holy communion, that he would actually set the very words of Jesus super big because those are the words that interpret these signs. And uh that leads me, sorry, I've been droning on, but one last thing was it leads me to the caveat. There's there are four chapters, as it were, to the catechism: Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Sacraments. So that's the structure that all these things take. But Luther in the large catechism makes this distinction that he says we can't really get to the sacraments and their explanation until you've mastered these other things. You have to have them memorized, uh, or it doesn't quite work to talk about them. And so you'll go and see this. That is explicitly the structure that Ratzinger edited uh the Catholic Catechism of the Church, uh the Catechism of the Catholic Church to Yeah, so I have two questions about that structure.
SPEAKER_01Why do some put the commandments first? Uh, is that the idea of law first, bring conviction of sin, and then give the gospel, versus the gospel is what empowers us to live out the commandments in love? Uh, and then the other question is about the the sacraments, because I think we see that going back to um, I'm trying to think, is it Gregory's catechetical discourse that that includes the sacraments? I mean, that there's a long tradition of that going back before the Reformation. Is that the idea that Christian truth must be received within the community of faith, with its rites of initiation and unity, and also that this truth is kind of embodied in the sacraments? You know, what are the reasons for those four things and then the order that they take?
SPEAKER_04Luther is credited for changing some of these things, that what he would have received, the Ten Commandments would have come last, the Apostles' Creed first. Um and so some see that as a movement from love to faith that he would have received, where he changes it from a movement from faith to love. So he orders it, Ten Commandments, Apostles' Creed, Lord's Prayer, uh, where the church, the Catholic Church had had done it differently. Um, I don't want to over overread what he was up to when he made that change, but it does kind of work handily, especially when you go and look at his talk on the confession of sin, which is what sins do I confess to my pastor or a fellow Christian? Those that bother me, how do I know what those are? Examine yourself according to the Ten Commandments. Are you a husband? Are you a wife? Are you a child? Uh are you a worker? Have you been lazy or have you been caused trouble? So it is a good mirror for sin. That is what the Ten Commandments are good for. But Luther has other categories in keeping with the tradition for the Ten Commandments, which is that they have a civil use, the restraint of evil in the world, because the Ten Commandments are natural law. All people do have these. The uh the people of Israel had the special special privilege of God Himself writing these words down for them. But everyone did has the natural law. And the second use is his theological use, which is the conviction of sin. And then the debated third use. So this is sort of a rolling thing every every 10 years or so. Lutherans argue about this if there's a third use in Luther. So it depends what texts you're reading, that sometimes he'll talk about two, sometimes he'll talk about three. But he does, in my experience with what I see in his sermons and his antinomian disputations, he sees a role for a so-called sort of Christian use of the law, which is that the law describes the Christian life. Um, it doesn't, it can't go to you, it can't force you to do things, but it it describes that life. Um and so so part of that is that his thing about good works is that good works can't be compelled, they spontaneously come from us, they spontaneously erupt out of faith and love. And so that what's worse than what sort of love is it to say, oh, well, if I love my friend, what should I do? Like, tell me what I need to do. That's not what love is. Love spontaneously fulfills that. Um yeah, and then the reformed catechisms, Heidelberg, I think, is the one that I noticed it in. And uh again, I'm not as familiar with them, but Heidelberg, I believe, sets the Ten Commandments at the end. They have sort of an upfront little thing about the Ten Commandments, and there is probably some sort of confessional thing going on there that reformed folks do tend to be pretty excited about a third use of the law that's different from it. At least I think it's different from when Luther's just saying the third use of the law describes the Christian life. That there is sort of um I I don't know, I don't want to put words in reform folks' mouths, but it does come across sometimes as we can accomplish these things. We can direct the law when we preach. And that's another thing that um Luther and some of my favorite Lutherans, like Harold Senkweil, will say, you can't direct the use of the law. The Holy Spirit does that.
SPEAKER_01How does keeping the Creed, Ten Commandments, Lord's Prayer, and sacraments, you know, holding them together, how does that help to provide balanced instruction? Because I think I've seen a lot of examples of a very moralistic, a very moralistic approach to teaching children where we're almost completely focused on moral formation, what they should and shouldn't do, um, whereas they don't have a very robust understanding of the faith or why they're supposed to do these things, uh, except that they're gonna get in trouble with their parents, you know, uh, or with God. So, yeah, how how do these things work together, whatever order they're in, how do they work together to provide the kind of like holistic whole life discipleship formation that we're after?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and that's you definitely want to take them all together. I mean, so there still is the law and gospel distinction is sort of fascinating with these. That in a way you would think that the Ten Commandments is just always law, and it mostly is. Uh, but one fascinating thing in Luther's preaching is he actually glosses the Ten Commandments slightly different than he teaches them. He didn't change the ordering received from the Roman Catholic Church, but in practice, he always puts nine and ten, which is don't covet your neighbor's house, don't covet your neighbor's wife. Um, he always takes those together. The only place I've seen him separate it is the small catechism. And then usually he glosses the first commandment, not as you shall have no other gods, but I am the Lord your God. And so he has these lovely things where he said, you know, I sit down each morning and I'm gonna contemplate the Ten Commandments. And I turn to the first commandment. I am the Lord your God. I. And I sit there and I just think about I, how wonderful this is, that God speaks to me as an I. And, you know, I'm before it's too long, I have to go. I've spent all my time just thinking about how wonderful this is. And so he's saying that this can be law and gospel, law or gospel, depending on where I am. That for the Lord to say that he is my God is a terrifying thing when I have a guilty conscience, that God speaks to me when I've done such evil things. And then on the other side, when I'm a conscience looking for assurance and wanting forgiveness to hear that the Lord is my God, this is great news. Anyway, that's a little bit of a detour. So, how do we hold these all together with kids? Um it is it is true that people are often really fixated on getting kids to do the right thing. And that's Peter Lightheart has an interesting comment where he's he's talking about the Ten Commandments as helping to teach children to be ethical for a lifetime. It's not just giving a child an ethics, it's teaching them to make ethical decisions in in their life. Because if you just keep making the ethical decisions for them, they won't be able to learn. And so the the question is how do you take this and reapply it? But uh sorry, I'm kind of wandering around in the wilderness a little bit here. I was thinking about my own children with uh there's my goal right now, they're so young, five and six, my goal is for them to know these words. And the things that they really catch on that really have caught we go through the small catechism in the morning, just a section at a time. And uh and then at night we always say either the apostles' creed or the Lord's Prayer. And the Lord's Prayer and the Apostles' Creed are really wedged into their minds. The Ten Commandments, less so because that's not uh enforced in say public worship, or we don't really do it very often, except in about twice every ten days we go through it. And then the the sacraments, baptism and communion and forgiveness. Communion is is less fixed in their mind. Baptism is something that they understand a little bit better because we celebrate our baptismal anniversaries. So, like mine was just this last Saturday. So they go and they make the little sign of the cross on my forehead and on my wife's forehead and on another's. Uh so they they understand this because we're always starting our time of prayer by saying in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And so I ask them, why do we say those words? And why do we make the sign of the cross? And the answer that I want out of them is because we belong to Jesus, who is stronger than death. Um so those are the things that I'm really wanting them to know is that there's not something that they have done that's brought them to be loved by God. It's it's they're He did all these things because He loves them and He loves you and He loves me. Uh and that's really the great message of the Apostles' Creed. Um And you know, later in life there's gonna be more times to talk about the ways that we break the Ten Commandments. But I also find meditating on the Ten Commandments as a parent has been a great aid in my own life just to constantly be rolling over these things. So these are words that we can set up later to help them interpret themselves and the world around them. So uh one of the things that's at the end of the small catechism is a thing called the table of duties. And what it is is how do we interpret our vocation? And Luther gives you certain Bible verses. Are you a parent? Here's some Bible verses to interpret your life. And so I think a way to kind of turn the moralism on its head a little bit is to say when I look at my children. What word has God placed over them for me to see who they really are? Well, he's placed over them the words of baptism, that they are marked with his name and they are his children. And also they've placed over them the word of Ephesians 6, verse 4, that I am not to provoke them, but to discipline them and raise them in the faith. And so these are lovely things that they have both law and promises. And that's how I'm to see my children. There are things that they can teach me too. Or how do I see my wife? I see her according to the seventh commandment in the Lutheran numbering, that I'm not to commit adultery, uh, and that she is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. And so these are words that I can also teach my own children as they get older, and some of those things become bigger bits. But right now I find we're just focused on these words and helping them to hear the Bible. So I recently we were going through going through the story Bible, and uh we had gotten to Jesus' crucifixion. And when we ended it, my six-year-old had said, Well, the Apostles' Creed says, on the third day he rose again from the dead. And it you see they're finding their way in the Bible story because they have mastery over the creed. Because they know these words, they can find how that story is in all of the Bible. And that's the most important thing I think we can do as parents, is to give kids great handles so they can find their way around in the Bible. It's not hard to tell people what's wrong. It's not very fun. But you know, ethics isn't, in a certain sense, is not very difficult. You know, we have a functioning conscience, we know when we've done wrong, and kids know that too. I think you see it. Um I can I remember hiding as a kid when I did something wrong. My oldest is a guilty conscience, he does the same. Um, and so what I find, you know, you have to know your own kids. There are kids that are maybe not guilty consciences, and so you do have to come down on them with a law a little bit harder. That's uh Gregory the Great's pastoral rule. What sort of person stands before you? A guilty conscience or someone who's stubborn? A stubborn person, you use direct language. You have done this. A guilty conscience, you say things indirectly. When someone does something like this, people are hurt, you know, and that's enough. Um and then you always have to be able to bring a life of forgiveness in. So that means that as a parent, I'm saying when I have sinned against my children. Um, something that I'd like to do more that we we don't do as often as I'd like. Uh, and this is my control, I guess, is a mutual confession of sins. And then my children reminding me that God has forgiven me in Jesus Christ, and me likewise saying that to them. Uh, I think that's a a really, really important piece. So I I've I I'm kind of wandering in the wilderness here, Jonathan. I um, but I I guess part of what I'm saying is that when we're forming kids, we're wanting to give them the message of the Bible, that they can have the handles to get it, which means they need to have the creed, which is the the history of the Bible. It's the whole thing. And then the other pieces come, you know, the Ten Commandments. They already have it in a sense with the natural law. And uh the sacraments are lovely little ways to remind them of these words that God has spoken of forgiveness, life, and salvation. So I, as a Lutheran, I don't point my children to just the sign. I don't say, look at this bread, look at this wine, don't look at this water. Those are those are all things that are true. But apart from the word and promise of God, it's just bread. It's just water. So, like Luther will say, um, yeah, what's the difference between this and the water that a cow drinks? The words and promises of God. And that makes all the difference. And so that's the thing that I want them. I want them to close their little eyes and hear those words.
SPEAKER_02Let me just interject here a little bit. I'm thinking about uh the doctrine of the priesthood of believers and how this may relate uh specifically to the parent-child relationship. And uh in fact, you just mentioned uh Gregory and his pastoral wisdom there and knowing who it is that you are uh speaking to. Um what kind of wisdom does Luther have? And of course, uh we can bring Calvin into this too if you want to. Uh, in regard to the priesthood that parents show toward their children in not only in catechism, but the the kind of the wraparound teaching as well and instruction and the conversation that takes place after catechism.
SPEAKER_04That's an interesting question. Um we'll see, I maybe I'll I'll start by saying how I see Luther's priesthood of all believers. Yeah. Um, and then you can redirect or see if the question needs to be reformed a little bit. But um so sometimes the priesthood of all believers is seen as, and I'm not saying this is what you're saying, um, but I've I've seen it a lot that it's like, oh, we don't really need pastors. Yeah, we can all do it. And what Luther means by the priesthood of all believers is we don't need an intermediary to talk to God. We can directly speak with him and directly hear his forgiveness. Uh, Luther has a very high place for the pastorate in the office of the word. That the office of the word, in the office of the word, somebody brings us Jesus, brings us God's word. They're not ministering themselves, they're trying to minister. They are ministering God, whether or not they're trying or not. That's the whole thing. Uh, and so I I think a piece of that is that as a parent, I see this especially in prayer, is trying to teach these little ones you can talk with God yourself. You don't have to do it just with me. I don't have to do it for you. And it's it's helping them find little ways to have those conversations. So you prayer is an abstract idea. Uh, and I I've seen when I ask children, what do you want to pray about? They're not going to answer. But if I redirect the question to say, what are some things you want to tell God about? What are you happy about? What are you sad about? What do you want to give thanks for? And what do you want to ask him for? Uh often I find my own children really hammer on the Thanksgiving bit. And then when they're sick, they ask about that or their friends are sick. Uh, or sometimes it'll be a hard day and they'll ask, Can I can I say something that makes me sad? And I think that's the role that I find in trying to empower the kids to do this stuff on their own. So, like I think of when I was their age, I remember very distinctly being told we don't pray about silly things. By this is um our our pastors would say these things. You know, we don't pray about pets, we don't pray about this and that. And uh to get a kid to pray is so hard in the first place, it's such a tender thing. And so I find myself really just wanting to say whatever you want to give thanks for or ask for or say thank you, whatever, it's okay. The only time that I redirect is if things begin to get silly, sure. Like where they're behaving in a silly fashion. But you know, often it's I have this transformer toy, and I love this toy, and that's what they want to give thanks for, and that's okay. And so some of it is is giving them what the the little things in their lives now, so that as they get bigger, they're able to say the big things. And then I I really love the Psalms, and so we do a lot of things with the Psalms, and I I think that that is helping to give them words for bigger problems and to know that it's okay to talk about those things with God. So, one of the most striking instances of this was my oldest son was very sick at Christmas time a few years ago, and uh there's a a little visitation of the sick thing that I like to do with them when there's they're sick. And it starts with a psalm. So I'd asked, What psalm would you like? And before I could even finish the question, he had croaked, out of the depths I cry, which is Psalm 130, which is a very fitting sick psalm. Um he doesn't understand all the words in Psalm 130, but there's something going on there that it connected with him, and that it's I God's word does so many more things than what we can see or explain. Um so that's I guess that's what I really see is posturing for children that this is their relationship with God, and they can take it and they can go and talk with Him too. They can do that with me, do that on their own. And and then it's very important for me to be able to say, I don't know when I don't know, an answer to their question. I think those are the two places that I see it the most is the prayer and answering questions. Forgiveness probably is a piece that is a is a great other spot to work on. Sure. Does that kind of get it what you're asking?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that does. It and and that uh you know brings to mind the importance of the parent understanding how the child is seeing them as and their response, hearing their response to their simple prayers or even their questions, um that they will direct toward the parent. And of course, we're teaching them, you know, there's you're speaking to God, but our response to them is how they will understand God's response to them and to their prayers, even for those simple things and and as well as for the silliness that we may uh you know help help train them to understand what is appropriate or not. But um I I think the it is a sort of a rule that we go by, a general rule is you know, if a child, if if this is what comes to a child's mind, and they especially if it's a question, if they're asking a question or if you are urging them for uh to make their prayer needs known, uh, you know, what comes to mind is what's on their mind. Like that's what's that's what they're carrying. Now you can usually tell when they're just trying to give a quick answer just so they can move on and and not have to be you know think about it. Um but generally we we take where they are and what's on their mind and try to help frame it for them uh and even give them some words for how they might offer a prayer up for that you know circumstance or need.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, well, and that's that I think that's where children are a great example. They're a type for us. This is how my worries and concerns look to God. You know what in a certain sense, what does my job matter? Like I I'm providing for my family, and that's very important. Um but you know, when when somebody else takes this desk, new things will happen, and you know, it's not like I I will leave some movable legacy that everyone will talk about. Or when I die, my children will know me, and my if if we ever if they have grandkids and stuff, they'll know me. But otherwise, you know, my name will be forgotten, it'll be lost, and that's okay. But there are all these things that are really important to us and we obsess about. But it's like, yeah, in the grand scheme of things, we are just dust. And to dust we return. And I think children are a good reminder of sometimes when they ask these small things, I think they're small things, but it's like, well, Todd, the things that you're asking for that you think are big are also small. And uh when you were talking it, it made me think of this class at at Ted's at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in art and beauty in education. We'll see if I can get through this story. It usually sneaks up on me. Um, so Donald Guthrie, who taught the class, he was talking about taking some some art class, and he really wanted to make a son, a big sun to put in his garden, a big metal sun. And so he did it and he brought it in to show all of us. And somebody had asked, like, why did you want to make a son? And he's like, Because it's like the son that God made. And I just lost it in this class. Like, just I I am a very ugly crier. I feel like some people have dignified cries. Um mine's just like, you know, very uh any anyway. Um I was just so struck, this idea of little Donald Guthrie standing there and standing before God and saying, Look, it's like yours, my son. Like, look how cool that is. And it's just a lovely, lovely image. That that's that's how we stand. You know, when we preach or write books or teach with our kids, it's like, hey God, it's just like what you did with me. I'm doing it too. Um anyway, it's it's very dear to me. I've gone down an alley.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, no, that's great because uh you know, we we we as parents love to see the discovery, the lights turn on in our children's minds as they um you know maybe memorize a new new passage or they they recite back something to us that we didn't know that they had gotten that. And that's that's that's just you know such a joy as a parent to to hear that and we feel like, okay, wow, that's okay, we're making progress. Uh but but as you just mentioned, like they are uh they're examples to us, right? I mean, they are they are uh of such that the kingdom of God is made of. So so that that same child uh childlike um you know faith and eagerness uh ought to really stir us when we see every time we see those lights going off, every time we it ought to stir us. Uh not that we just put a feather in our cap, but like, okay, uh my father is looking upon me as well, and I want to please him as my child has pleased me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and uh the other thing I was thinking about with that, uh it is amazing how much children are listening, and they really are soaking up all this. I mean, there was once we were reading, uh, I'm a big fan of the 30-day Psalter, and the evening of the fourth day, Psalm 23 is on there. My mother's birthday is on the fourth of the month, and so we were reading Psalm 23 for grandma. And when we get to verse six, uh, surely your mercy and goodness will dwell with me all the days of my life. I started, I said, surely, and then my oldest just finishes the whole sentence. And I was like, I didn't even think you were ever paying attention. And it's just wild to see. Um, you know, I don't have to drill him, I don't have to make sure that he understands what it means. But there are all these little words that are being sown in their little minds and hearts, and they'll come out when they need to, when it's useful for them and encouragement. Um and and what you were thinking, it was making me think back to Ted's where um I remember when I started at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, I had this great excitement of weaving together passages to make prayers. And there was some point when I started school that I thought that was not okay, that I was being told that that was messing with something holy or changing things or blah blah blah. And so I had to stop doing it. And I don't know if that's anybody's actual fault or just my own anxiety. But one of the things that I thought about going to seminaries, so often we're told all the ways that we're not supposed to do things. Don't make those connections. Like I was told not to see the lamb in 1 Peter as Jesus. Like, how do you know that's Jesus? Because it's the Bible, dude. But um, I'm sure I had all sorts of not very useful interactions about this kind of thing. One of the things that you see with kids is they love making connections, sure, and so instead of swatting them down, you try to honor them. And often they are very good connections. Um, I remember our children in church, they're telling a story to the kids with uh this curriculum called godly play. It's kind of like I I call it um flannel graph but with gravitas because the figures are wood instead of goofy flannel things. And they they were going through the story of the temple and the tabernacle in the wilderness, and the children connected the tabernacle with the altar. They're like, oh, we have those things. And they point to the objects in the church, and I just thought that's so good. Encourage those connections. Um, that these words really are for their encouragement and instruction and reproof. And sometimes are we taking that seriously at when we are forming pastors and theologians? I mean, I still remember you made a comment in a class, David, about that. Something about does the Bible really need to be defended? Or can the Bible do what it says? That's my memory of about what you said. You probably said it in some other way.
SPEAKER_02I I I don't recall, but uh No, I'm yeah, I'm afraid of what all may be recalled from those days, but oh no, all good things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was just I think it was I I don't remember the full context, but often there is this let's give an apology for the Bible. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were making some point, like, hey, you know, God can take care of himself, like let's just use the words, and that's um that's the great Lutheran insight is God's word does what it says. So leave it to God.
SPEAKER_02Um you you may have touched on this before I came in. Oh, go ahead, Jonathan.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, I think I'm lagging. Uh I was just gonna say, um, because of time, I want to make sure we get to the Fat Cat books at some point here. This series uh books, you've written the text for at least one of them, right? The King of Christmas? King of Christmas and King of Easter, yep. Oh, you did the King of Easter. Okay. I haven't gotten that one yet. Yeah, that's right. These books are uh written for young children and illustrated by Natasha Kennedy, and they provide some beautiful expositions of the Apostles' Creed, Ten Commandments, and Lord's Prayer. Uh, do you have the Ten Commandments book yet? I I think I just have the Apostles' Creed and Lord's Prayer.
SPEAKER_04So the Ten Commandments is being uh proofread right now. Oh, that's exciting. Hal Sinkwaler wrote the text. We've been working over on that for the last couple, it's been a long time. Um, and then uh Natasha's had some ups and downs with health things for the last year, and so the tech, the the images were finished oh November to February or so. But really fun images. Um so all of the text in the Ten Commandments, each commandment is presented as protecting a gift that God has given. And then each commandment is illustrated from Jesus' life. Uh because the goal is that a child actually wants to read this book. So if you just do it as moral formation or stuff you're not supposed to do, it's not super exciting to anyone. Um but yeah, I'm I'm pretty excited about it. I think it turned out nicely. It is, I think, the hardest of the Apostles' Creed, the Lord's Prayer, uh for for illustrating and commenting on. Yeah, so do you want to talk a little bit? I'm sorry, I there was a question.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's okay. No, no, that's great. Uh, I'm I'm excited to see it when it comes out. Do you just want to talk about this series and how it it helps to embody some of the principles that we've been discussing?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, happy to. So so Fat Cat, it's a very funny way that it came about. So I've Luther's Luther's Small Catechism came with images, woodcuts for each of them. Because most of the people that had these books, they're illiterate, they couldn't read. Uh it was really interpreting with the image type of thing. And so I thought, I mean, Luther's Small Catechism is so incredible because it's so tiny, and it just empowers you to do so much. Where something like Heidelberg or Westminster is very big, and people quote kind of the same questions all the time from both of those. You don't, you don't hear, I mean, yeah, you don't you don't hear about some of the other ones. Um and so I had thought, you know, what does it look like to do this with today? And we have three generations of uncatechized Americans going on four. And so what happens is you see people that have kind of drifted out of church, and then they get married and have kids, and they're like, oh, I should take my kids to church, but I'm afraid to talk to them about anything because I don't know this stuff and I haven't read my Bible in years. So I'm just going to entrust them to the professionals of church. And uh you see this weird thing where there are kids that are going to church, but the parents aren't going. And then once the child has their own choice, they don't go. So it's sort of the goal was to give parents words for these things, knowing that in a way, these books are probably going to be teaching parents at the same time that they're teaching kids. And so that's that was talking about the catechism idea. So how why is it called fat cat? That was because I uh my wife and I we had this very, very, very fat cat. His name was Earl. Like squirrel but without the SQ. I mean, just ridiculously fat. Like his little belly kind of dragged on the ground. And it wasn't because we fed him, I don't know why he was so big. But he had both of the cats that we had when we got married, they died within six months of each other. And uh Tasha, the artist, her husband works with me at Lexum, and she thought this cat was very funny. So she had made a little funny, sad image of Earl with wings. And we're like, it's a fat cat. So her husband, Lindsay, he had made the point that actually this is a great name for a kid's series about teaching these truths because it makes a scary word like catechism sound approachable. So fat cat stands for it points to the catechism, cat for catechism. The catechism is fat because you can keep doing stuff with it. You're not going to get to the bottom of it. There's a life of stuff here. So the goal then was to start with these three core texts: the Apostles' Creed, the Lord's Prayer, and the Ten Commandments. And to illustrate these biblic as biblically as we could, with that's why in the back you'll see a parent's note with all these the passages that we use to interpret the very text and to illustrate. And so each one goes through kind of a gloss. Uh, in a lot of cases, there are many questions that are asked. So on one side you have the very text of, say, the Lord's Prayer, and then you have this gloss. So you can read these books in many different ways. You could just spend time on a single page and read the gloss to your children. Uh at night with my own kids. When we say the Lord's Prayer, I hold it up and we just say, you know, our father who art in heaven, and I turn the pages. So they have something to focus on. And I'll leave out words so that they have to finish them. You know, our father who art, and then they have to shout in heaven. Um so there are all these catechetical tools in these books for parents. There's a prayer at the front for kids in church, it's a long prayer. There's the very text of these things, and then in the back, there's a little family order of prayer that you can use with your children. You don't have to use all of it, you can use pieces of it. Has Psalm 100 verse 5 The Lord is good, his love endures forever. So it's sort of this call back, repeat these things, and then has a time for the children to pray, and it gives you some questions to ask your kids. You know, what do you what do you want to ask God about? What do you want to thank Him for? What etc. Um, and then there's this the parents' note that in the the core books, the Apostles' Creed, the Ten Commandments, and the Lord's Prayer, are pretty straight straight on about illustrating we're trying to do this according to the Bible. Ten Commandments, the parents' note is much longer because there's some other sticky things to talk about, like the numbering of the Ten Commandments. Why do some people number these things different? Uh we also chose to use an archaic word in the explanation of do not commit adultery, where Hal is trying to bring chastity back. Um it's really hard to talk about marriage and singleness without that word. And so we have an explanation on that so that parents can go somewhere else if if they feel ill-equipped to talk about chastity with children. Uh and just to clarify, chastity isn't just for not married people. All of us are called to be chaste. It's the the way that we use our bodies for God's glory. Um, and then the king of Christmas and the king of Easter are stories that are sort of assuming the logic of the catechism and approaching the Bible this way. So the King of Christmas asks, Where do we find Jesus? Where do we find God? And so it's stringing together several passages, but it's going through locations. The the Magi are looking for baby Jesus. So they look in the sky. Is he there? No. Is he in the field? No. Is he in the waters? No. And in all these places that they're looking for Jesus, the King of Christmas, there's a creature or a person that comes with them and joins the party. So then finally, you know, they get to they get to Jerusalem and they're going through thrones of the mighty, no, where the rich eat, no, until finally a stable, a manger where bait where animals eat. Yes. This is where God is found. And then it keeps going to the crucifixion, the resurrection, and finally, sort of the money landing spot is the word where he promises to be found. Yes. Jesus is the King of Christmas. Where his name and word are, you will find him. But so it's sort of this fun thing that it's very light text with pretty high concept. So the Taparent's note is explaining the logic of what's going on there with all these passages. And it's just fun to find all the things. So Easter reverses it. Then Easter is where how does Jesus find us? So it's taking the Zacchaeus story that the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost. And so it's listing all these people that Jesus finds. That they might not seem very lost, but they are. You know, Mary's lost, Simeon's lost, and Jesus finds them. And so it starts with just Jesus, and then as he finds these people, they join, and they all come along. Until at the end, I think there's like 30 people and a gaggle of animals as well. There's a raccoon named Faux Cat, uh, a caterpillar named Wormy, a uh woodpecker named Nocknock, and a goat named Fudge, which is named after my wife's childhood goat. Um, and then in the back of that, it's explaining the logic of how Zacchaeus is every every Easter story is a Zacchaeus story. That where where we find Jesus, we find the whole Christ. So you find baby Jesus, this is the man who's crucified. This is the the man who created the world. Um and both of those have little prayer services more focused on Christmas and Easter. So different psalmody and a slightly different prayer. Um and yeah, so now we're plotting about what's next. But does that help give an okay shape?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04I feel like I talk about these things too often that I I don't know if I'm assuming certain things.
SPEAKER_01These are beautiful books, and I use the Apostles' Creed book for a children's sermon series, and I I loved the page he descended into hell because that's you know, that's tough with kids, especially because you use the word hell rather than to the dead. But it says, Where will I go when I die? Where do all the dead go? Wherever it is, Jesus went there too. He went down as far as we had fallen. He took death's keys to free the captives. He overcame death with his life. He took Eve and Adam, our first parents, by the hand and made them his sister and brother. When I die, Jesus meets me there and takes me by the hand. He is God's strong son, my strong brother. Is anything stronger than death? Yes, Jesus. That's what I believe. And so just a little sample there. Encourage our listeners to to use these for their children and churches, Sunday schools. I mean, just uh I don't know of anything better, really. Uh beautiful, beautifully done, beautifully illustrated. So really appreciate this project. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02I appreciate uh your work as well. Uh, we also have used uh the the Apostles' Creed book uh with our children, uh with our our last two because uh our others are older. And uh we have a display in our church where we're bit displaying uh yours as well as some other uh works as well. So uh encouraging our families to use this material. Thank you with with their with their children. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you. It's it's really been fun, and it's so cool to hear about Fat Cat being in other people's homes and uh the the fun stories that you get to hear that kids ask, like, where where does Fat Cat live? Is he Jesus Cat? And um and I I did want to just briefly say about the descent to hell that uh it one thing that I sometimes I wish that it could have said more about that with with parents. I think Ben did an amazing job of splitting going right down the middle so that if you use that wording it applies, and if you use he descended the dead, it applies. And so part of that is what is hell? Hell, according to the Bible, is where death lives, it's death's house. So I I hope that this text can help reclaim that a little bit because it is a really useful category. Um, and that's I find myself thinking about the descent all the time. Whether it's in Ben's words there or Joseph Rotzinger, the the Pope Emeritus who recently died, uh he had a lifelong obsession talking about the descent. That the descent takes human loneliness to its height. What's low, what what's ultimate loneliness? Death. What's ultimate death? Hell. Jesus went all the way there. And so it any loneliness, any death, any pain, Jesus is there with you. And I mean, it just goes. Like it's so great. And and Tasha really gets that. The King of Easter has a wonderful um descent spread with Adam and Eve and this great host from Psalm 68 with banners. It's just really lovely, victorious image that Jesus has defeated death, the devil, and sin. So I just wanted to add that.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on. And you talked a lot about Martin Luther. I wanted to mention uh finally your book, Martin Luther and the Rule of Faith: Reading God's Word for God's People. That just came out this year, correct?
SPEAKER_04Uh 2022 came out, yep, October last year. Um, 500th anniversary of Luther's church postals and his September Testament. So that was kind of fun.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, hey, thanks so much for being on today. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Todd. Yeah, thank you. It's good to be here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good to see you again. And we'd love to have you on here again. You have a wealth of knowledge and and experience there. And I think I think a lot of our listeners uh do listen in part because of the uh usually the little tidbits here and there that we touch on that help families and uh uh help them to really really be engaging in robust theology.
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