Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Reflections on the 2023 Healthy Church Conference
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David Fry and Johnathan Arnold discuss their experience at the recent Holy Joys Healthy Church Conference in Frankfort, IN. Visit holyjoys.org/conference for more info about the conference and next year's dates.
Just one of several clips of feedback that we've gotten from a first timer. He said, This conference was set apart in a class all of its own from anything I've ever experienced, still wishing it wasn't over. Jesus was placed as preeminent and exalted throughout. The word of God took precedence. The presence of God was manifest. I loved all the guest speakers who were well equipped to teach and welcomed an open dialogue. I loved hearing those who spoke from their seats as well.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the Holy Joys Podcast. Here with Dr. David Fry to talk about the recent Holy Joys Healthy Church Conference there in Frankfurt, Indiana. We had a wonderful conference. I walked away encouraged, but also challenged, and uh continue to think about some of the insights that I gained. Uh, and we're going to talk about some of the things that uh some takeaways from the sessions, but being there is an experience. Uh it's uh it's it's not something that just listening even to a recording of the session, you can really walk away and get the gist of it. So much of what happens at the conferences is around the tables, it's in personal conversations, and it's just in experiencing the healthy culture that's there, uh the freedom of dialogue, uh, the spirit of prayerfulness. It was really a beautiful time together and uh really looking forward already to next year.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I am too, and I always enjoy having uh so many uh friends and new friends uh you know coming in for the conference and uh just a variety of people from across uh nine, maybe even ten different states, uh number of denominations, uh various backgrounds, and coming together, sitting at the same table and having conversation, uh, enjoying the speakers. I felt like the speakers were just, you know, just really nailing it and um in such a positive and instructive and uh even conversational way. So I appreciate that. And I always want to give the caveat for the healthy church conference because uh as the host pastor, um I want to say two things. Number one, I didn't come up with the name of it uh for the conference. Uh that was I think that was your idea, Jonathan, uh, not mine, uh, because I don't want to be uh appearing to say, hey, come and see what a healthy church is and learn from us, uh, because that's not what it what it's about at all. Uh it's it's about having a conversation for uh all of us to improve our own spiritual health, but those of of uh that life of our church, uh local churches as well. So um it's always challenging. I always walk away with, oh wow, you know, that that's you know, those are some great ideas, those are great insights. You know, that's a better way to say this, or that's a better way to think about this. And uh I walked away with um from both the sessions and the table conversations with a whole list of ideas that are actually pretty easily uh implemented and yeah, I think can really uh pack a real punch in the local church.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't remember who came up with the name. Uh I like it though. We've really been leaning into it. We've been leaning into the word health. You know, we started out a holy happy church, and I think those two ideas kind of come together in the idea of health. So, you know, we've expressed various times like, you know, a church that's serious about holiness, at least in word, but doesn't seem to be producing people who deeply enjoy God and one another, the peace and joy of the kingdom, there's an indication there that something's going awry with our holiness, or vice versa. You know, a church that's not very pure, but just seems to be and everything's great, um, just kind of uplifting all the time. So there's got to be this balance. I think those ideas really cohere in this concept of health, and people seem to get a hold of that really easily. So um after the conference wrote up a paragraph here for the for the website, and we'll probably continue to refine this, but uh on the conference page of holyjoys.org, the Holy Joys Healthy Church Conference is a gathering of committed lay people and growing pastors. So pause there to just say I noticed there was some perception uh this year that this was primarily a pastor's conference, and that's not at all what this is, because you started it out to train lay people. This was about uh group leaders, right? Small group leaders. So we want people to know. Um, I think over 50% of the people in attendance this year were lay people anyway, but we want this to know this is for anyone who's a serious Christian who wants to have an impact in their local church to be healthy and to uh help disciple others. So it's a gathering of committed lay people and growing pastors, growing. There's a culture of growth here that we want to emphasize. We're trying to sharpen one another, we're trying to build one another up that we can we can be better pastors for Christ and his kingdom, who come together in person. Um, you know, we're not live streaming this and probably won't do it in the future. We may release some edited audio clips, but this is really an in-person experience. It's more like workshop-based and conversational. Um, this is really a time to just stop, come together, and focus on what are we doing well, how can we help one another to grow, uh, what can we learn from one another. Um, I can't stop at every word here and break this all down, but committed lay people and growing pastors who come together in person to learn from one another about the beliefs, values, practices, and culture of a healthy local church. The conversation, key emphasis there on conversation, the conversation is led by qualified practitioners who love the church and want to see it grow in holy happiness. We encourage open and constructive dialogue in a relaxed and prayerful setting. So also emphasis on constructive. One of the comments that I so appreciated from an ICHA pastor who attended was uh just how much uh he walked away feeling like everything was positive. Everything was up um, it wasn't about you know, sitting around and and moaning about uh unhealthy practices or beliefs, either of our churches or of other churches. It was about, hey, what is the kind of kind of church that we want to be? What is the kind of church that ultimately Jesus wants us to be, and how do we get there? Um so very constructive. Um, we're there to just try to be healthy, right? Try to be holy and happy. And so trying to keep that very positive and encouraging emphasis going.
SPEAKER_00It is. And I opened up the conference by uh we had a number of new people there. So this is their first time, first experience because of the size of the the group that was gathered. We had to move to the sanctuary. We used to be in a uh more of a fellowship uh area. Uh so when you walk into a sanctuary, you kind of put on your get ready for a church service mentality. And oh, we did sing a song, we we you know, we prayed, we we took an offering. Uh, but uh I did preface with saying, you know, hey, this is this is a relaxed atmosphere, this is a relaxed uh conference. Uh we are here to have a conversation, we're here to uh build one another up uh from uh the many different places where we where we come from. Uh where we all have something to contribute to the conversation. And I really think that that uh lay presence, the presence of people who are, you know, they're not the pastor, uh maybe not even the a board member or even a Sunday school teacher, but they are someone who is involved in the discipleship in their local church in some way. And that there are a lot of different ways to be involved in discipleship. You don't have to be the one up front teaching a class or the one leading a Bible study in a circle to be involved in discipleship. You may be the person that someone comes to afterwards and pours their heart out, and you just need to listen and pray with them and and uh and walk with them, right? That's an important part of discipleship. And so uh if if you're that person, yeah, this is for you as well. And now for nine years, this is our ninth year uh to have this this conference uh prior, it was just called the the uh discipleship conference. And I actually think uh about three years ago, I think we had either a session or the theme of the the conference was was healthy church. And I think that's actually where that came from. I think uh you mentioned like, well, hey, that that that's a great theme, like that's what it's all about. Let's just make that the the title theme. So um, so that's I think how that came about. But uh in any case, I I agree. Those those three words, happiness, holiness, health, uh, those uh that all works together. Now I mentioned uh a couple of times in the last two weeks to our congregation something like this. I've said if your if your idea of holiness is leading you in a direction other than harmony, or we could say a direction other than happiness, or if your idea of happiness or harmony is leading you away from holiness, you're going in the wrong direction because all of that is the same direction, not different directions. And so I think what I appreciate about holy joys and and everything else we do, and then we bring this uh mindset and framework to conference, is happiness and holiness and health, and let me throw it in another word, uh uh harmony, all of that is in the same direction.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And as we pursue one, we're pursuing all of that together. And it really is a beautiful thing to see that come through in the happy uh conversations that take place uh in between sessions at the table. And uh it's it's been very rewarding to see the growth of the conference.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. I just did an interview with Mark Crabins and shared my testimony on his podcast, uh Hope Along the Journey. And we got talking about my early Christian life, and it reminded me that uh one of the first books I ever read, before I think I was even attending a church anywhere, I was just in public high school reading my Bible and looking for resources. I stumbled upon Wesleana, a compendium of Wesley's writings, and I found that book, um, I think it was last year sometime, and I had it underlined and marked up in that book. The very first chapter is on true religion. And Wesley says, Christianity is holiness and happiness. Happiness is only another name for the Christian religion. He that is not happy is not a Christian. Now, Wesley qualifies that and explains what he means by that, right? You know, he talks about people who have nervous disorders and all those things. So we understand that. Um, but defined in a biblical and historically Christian way, happiness is the goal or the end of holiness. And I just uh taught through a first draft or second draft now of the catechism in our church this past Sunday, and I talked about that same thing where Anselm, well, so we're talking about the image of God. And so we're talking about how the image of God is this moral and intellectual likeness of God, uh, to God. And so, why do we need to be made like God in this way? Why do we need to be made holy? Well, in order that we might be near Him and then rationally perceive something of His glory for our enjoyment, right? So Answer says it shouldn't even be disputed that we were made holy to be happy in God. So, in some sense, happiness is even more ultimate, but yet they're inseparable. So I don't really want to frame it that way, but I'm just saying there happiness is the goal for you. So, yeah, I really love how we've um made that the beating heart of our ministry. And I feel like in the beginning, when we started Holy Joys, we kind of knew that was a really central idea. But I think in the last couple months, and especially at this conference and since this conference, um some dots are connecting for me, and I'm I'm realizing how it really is at the heart and at the center of everything that we're doing, even if it's not always explicit, you know, even if we're not always using those words. It is the beating heart of our ministry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, one of the things I appreciate is um I I meet new people every year, right? There are new people who come. Uh this is the second year that Holy Joys has uh that's been a Holy Joys conference. Um, and and in these two years I've met new people I did not know before. Um and and every year someone comes up to me or to you and says, Oh, I really enjoyed you know the podcast. I really appreciate this article or that article or this resource. And so it's a great place, first of all, to get some feedback from our listeners and um and then to um also, of course, you know, kind of expand our um our vision of of you know who is out there and who is uh you know searching for this sort of uh fellowship and and this kind of gathering. And uh we've um you know we we have gotten some very positive feedback from the attenders. And I think you put on that uh that page, holyjoys.org conference, um uh just one of several uh you know clips of of the feedback that we've gotten. And uh this one was that you have listed here is from a first timer. And I noticed something what he said. Let me go ahead and read it for those who are listening. Uh he said, um, this conference was set apart in a class all of its own from anything I've ever experienced, still wishing it wasn't over. Jesus was placed as preeminent and exalted throughout. The word of God took precedence, the presence of God was manifest. I loved all the guest speakers who were well equipped to teach and welcomed an open dialogue. I loved hearing those who spoke from their seats as well. So he touches on a little bit how of how the setting, you know, what the setting looks like and how it's conducted. And uh, you know, so we have a speaker who will speak for you know 30 minutes, 40 minutes, and then we just open up the conversation. You know, we have mics uh for so that everyone can hear. We haven't had to do that in the past, but this year we had to make sure that everyone could hear. So we pass a mic around and um you know, so people can ask a question and engage. And uh I think that's uh that's very engaging. Now we're already making plans for for as the as the conference grows for how to maintain that atmosphere um because people are less likely to speak out if you have you know 200 people in a room. Um, you know, they're not not as many people. You're gonna have all the pastors speaking out, right? Uh or or those who are used to speaking up front. Uh so we want to to have a good uh dialogue. So uh there are already plans for how to keep that happening. So we're gonna try to move to round tables where there are still small groups of people and you can have conversation. And of course, we'll still have you know some open time where you're actually dialoguing with the speaker as well. But then um, you know, we go uh to a fellowship area and you continue the conversation right there on site. So uh we're not moving very far, you don't have to go you know somewhere else necessarily to get food. You can you can eat together there, and and uh it was beautiful. And then the other thing that uh that this um attender mentioned was the um how did he say it? That the just the time of uh the presence of God was manifest. And I want to give a shout out here to our board member Travis Johnson, who who last year led uh on Friday morning, I think it was, on Friday morning, had a session, and he was assigned a topic of uh I think it was like uh worship-based prayer or something like that. And so uh as he uh which he's done before in the past at the conference, and uh last year he said, Hey, why don't we just let's not let's just like actually just do do the whole thing, which I was like, yeah, that's exactly what we should be doing. Let's just do it like we would in a a Wednesday night or a Sunday night. And so he did that, and it was so worshipful, so powerful, just a uh you know, a time of you know, uh we had a little prayer circles uh in that particular session, and time of worship and singing and scripture and reflection. And so uh we loved it so much last year, we decided this year, hey, we're just gonna start off each day with that. So the first session in the morning, Friday morning, Saturday morning, like we're gonna do that. And so Travis did that again, and he's agreed to come back next year and to uh to lead us again. And and uh he's he puts a lot of work into that, very creative, very uh um very Bible focused, right? It's it's the word of God actually leading that time of worship with songs that reflect that. Uh so that's a beautiful time of worship and then um you know conversation that follows. Yeah, it really set the tone for the day.
SPEAKER_03Uh it's one of the things I mentioned there in that description in a prayerful setting. Um, sometimes at conferences, camp meetings, events, um, there's a lot of energy and there's this um like really strong push to see something happen that's exciting and that's and you know, whatever. And that's that's fine, you know, for for certain settings. But one of the things I appreciate about this is it's different. It's restful, it's peaceful, it's contemplative. You know, we're trying to cultivate that culture of slowing down for a few days and really thinking together in God's presence about what it is that uh we want we need to be, want to be as a church. So um, yeah, Travis did it, did a great job. And as you said in a I think a private conversation, um the act of just doing it is training people because it's really not that hard. You could take his outline and go back to your church and just do it without hardly any preparation because it's all laid out there. You know, there's prayer prompts. You know, you read a psalm where the psalmist says, you know, Lord, you hear my prayers. And then Travis looks at the congregation and says, you know, hey, answer this or complete this prompt. Lord, thank you for hearing my prayers when. And people start uh just speaking up and sharing things like, you know, when I was depressed, when I was addicted to, you know, whatever, and just really transparent and meaningful um points of prayer, and then just praying about those things and thanking God for them and praising God for them, and then singing a song, uh hymn or whatever that goes along with that. Um, one of the things I wish I would have been there for is Saturday. I had to leave uh early Saturday morning to be able to get back to Pennsylvania in time for uh our church service Sunday morning to be able to prepare in the evening. So I miss the psalm sing. Um that's something that's near and dear to my heart. Our church sings a psalm uh in our Wednesday night small group, and I am um planning to work that into our Sunday morning worship eventually. Um can you just talk a little bit about that? Uh, how did that go? Why do you feel like that's important?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we sang a couple of psalms, uh, maybe even three psalms. So uh one was a um uh Psalm 34 written to a uh a new tune that someone I don't know who wrote the tune, but uh one that I had heard somewhere before. Um and then there was another psalm, I don't recall which one it was, but we sang it to the tune of Crown Hymn with many crowns. So it was set to a tune that was already familiar with people. Uh the the newer uh tune that we sang with the Psalm 34 may not have been as familiar, but it was easy to learn, so it was uh it was very nice. And then it seems like we did a third one, and I can't remember if it was too uh we did a couple other songs that were not psalms. Um but uh yeah, I mean that was beautiful, and it really got me to thinking um about number one, looking into um the work because I know a fair amount of work has been done by some artists. On writing tunes for the Psalms. And there's there actually, I think, is a lot more out there than what I'm familiar with. So that was one thing I put in my head to check into is okay, what's out there that's actually singable for a congregation? And uh and so that I think if we have if you know of any sources, I think that'd be great to share those. I'm sure Travis probably has some too.
SPEAKER_03Um I talked about that actually in our book list podcast. I think that was, or no, maybe it was our online resources podcast, which we haven't published yet. One of mine was psalms.sebed.com. Uh Timothy Tennant has rewritten all of the psalms in metrical form and paired them with familiar hymn tunes. So uh you go to oh I thought Psalm 23 was said to Grace, but it's not. I can put that in the link.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you'll put that link in there, I'll I'll definitely look at that too.
SPEAKER_03Here's here's Psalm 1 really quick, just to give people an idea how simple this is. And I think this Travis used this for at least one of them. So I just went to Psalm 1, and um it's in metrical form, so it's blessed is the one who does not walk within the wicked way, nor stands in the paths of sinners, nor sit where the scoffers stay. So there's rhyming and there's you know meter, and then there's four tunes that you can set it to. So joyful, joyful, we adore the ode to joy.
SPEAKER_02So blessed is the one who does not walk within the wicked way, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit where the scoffers stay. So just like that, people can do it.
SPEAKER_03And I did it with our church, and they picked it up. It's not not hard.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's great. Man, it's yeah, that's and that can be used so beautifully in a Sunday morning service or a um you know a Bible study, small group, you know, could do that together very easily. I think that's beautiful. Yeah, so that was yeah, that was Saturday morning, and um, and then uh Friday going back to well, actually, let's go back to Thursday for a second. This began on Thursday night. We'll kind of um recap the the whole conference here. Uh so Thursday night, uh David Hartkoff um spoke and and um gave sort of a a broad uh view on uh just our our whole church liturgy and worship and and uh touched on a lot of different uh matters there that was just in a beautiful and funny and uh you know uh very uh you know captured the audience that first night in such a beautiful way. And um now he had drank a Mountain Dew, uh something one of those certain Mountain Dews, it must have had extra uh caffeine or something. Um he was he was uh hyped up.
SPEAKER_03But it was great switching more than usual.
SPEAKER_00That's right, that's right. That's what you said. Uh but it was great, it was just absolutely everyone loved it. And um you know, challenging and and talked about uh really just preparing ourselves and preparing as worship leaders, uh preparing for our you know to lead our congregations in worship and what that needs to go into that. Uh so that was really meaningful.
SPEAKER_03Uh Friday, uh then um Phil Brown before you move on to David, real quick, or uh to Phil Brown, real quick, David's points uh were to start, well, so the whole the whole session was about the word and worship. So he asked the question, you know, we say that the Bible is inspired, inerrant, infallible, but how much does it actually shape and show up in our services? So he said, start with a scriptural call to worship, sing the psalms, prioritize the meta-narrative, the big picture of the Bible and your preaching and your teaching, give tools for reading the Bible well and say what scripture says. And I actually had forgotten that uh until I was looking at my notes here, that he mentioned singing the psalms as well. So Travis went in that direction if you went that direction. And um, I was just thinking when I pass out the psalm on Wednesday nights to our group, uh, I have at the top Ephesians 5.19, be filled with the spirit addressing one another in Psalms. So obviously, a healthy church is a spirit-filled church. You know, when you send forth your spirit, they are created and you renew the face of the earth. So spirit-filled church is a healthy church, and Ephesians 5.19, be filled with the spirit addressing one another in psalms. And then Colossians 3.6, Paul commands singing psalms. Like singing psalms has been a huge part of the church's worship for most of its history. It's been almost completely lost in the last, I don't know, what, 100 years in evangelical churches? And so it's really a matter of great importance to recover. But anyway, right, I won't be stuck on that too long.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um yeah, and then uh and then Phil had uh uh four or did he have four points, or was it five points on on um Friday morning, right? Five points, and and uh do you have those written down? You want to share those?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so he talked about how um people are messy, redeemed people are messy, and churches are filled with redeemed but messy people. Therefore, as you work with a healthy church or for a healthy church, first of all, reject utopian ideals. And I needed to hear that. Yeah, it was so good. Uh patiently lean towards biblical models, lean into learning self-sacrificial community. I love I love his words here, his verbs. Lean into learning self-sacrificial community, uh patiently lean. And then fourth, expect pain, problems, and difficult communication. Don't avoid it, but expect it, prepare for it, and learn how to navigate in a healthy way. And then finally, and this is this phrase has really stuck with me. Discipleship must include wisdom, skills, development. And the book of Proverbs can help. So discipleship must include wisdom skills development. So wisdom skills are the skills that are taught to us in the wisdom literature, especially, about interpersonal relationships and working out conflict and how to receive criticism and how to give criticism and you know, all those things. And I thought to myself, wow, um that really is a missing area of my discipleship plan, so to speak. Um, and I'm actually taking a class from Dr. Brown right now on Proverbs. And one of the things he at the very beginning of the class said, What do you want to learn from this class? And I said, I want to know how Proverbs fits into my discipleship plan. Uh, what will come of this class? And and that really clicked at the conference. This is this is crucial. And he's all about theological instruction, but he said, you know, more systematic theology lectures are not going to resolve these issues. You need Proverbs talks about how to live out this theology in the grind. So wow, that session was probably for me the uh the most the most impactful um because it it really exposed some areas of weakness in my own ministry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I and in our own small group ministry and discipleship uh groups, we emphasize uh one of the questions we ask is how is God's word shaping your life right now? Book, chapter, verse. And I often press our group leaders to encourage people to draw from the proverbs first and foremost, because that is because it's so right there. Like it's it's uh number one, proverb is simple, it just makes the point and it's memorable. You can memorize it, you can hide it in your heart, and you can feed on it for a long, long time. And in my case, it takes me a long time to form a new habit, and so I gotta meditate on it for months before I even start seeing really some you know, the sort of habit change in my life. So um, yeah, absolutely. Uh the role of the proverbs in disciple discipleship is is uh extremely helpful.
SPEAKER_03And then the next session was Jessica Harkoff, is that correct? Yes. Um and she hit it.
SPEAKER_00I'm sorry, no, uh no, uh Dave, no, I'm sorry, David followed up. Uh he he had the late morning, and then Jessica was the first in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_03You know what? I think the points that I shared from David on the word and worship were from that session, actually. Okay, okay. Yeah. Um, so then so then Jessica after that, and she talked about how a healthy church is built on healthy families, and the foundation of healthy families is a healthy marriage. So um she said, we won't be a healthy church if we don't have healthy families, no matter how well we speak on Sunday morning, just as healthy churches are made up of healthy families, so healthy families are built on the foundation of healthy marriages. Uh, and then I had two takeaways here for for me and my own family. The worst thing you can do for your kids is to make them the center of your family. Uh, and then every time your spouse talks to you about anything, however small, it's a bid for your attention. You then choose to either turn towards them or away from them. And if you turn away from them, you aren't cherishing them. So just some some great point, practical points. But I think what really stood out in that conference was when she talked about the rhythms and the patterns, she called them liturgies in her family, and how Deuteronomy 6, which um, you know, that's the heart of this um discipleship in the home. That's the heart of family discipleship. Right. It's talk about these things when you rise up, when you walk by the way, when you go to bed at night. That will never happen if you don't have some kind of intentionality and structure. And um, so she talked about some of the things that they do and simple things. And it was very, it was very honest, it was very real and relatable because she said, you know, before they uh have a meal, they just light a candle and say Christ is the light of the world. And you know, Jessica's saying that, and you're up there thinking, wow, that's so beautiful. Look at their home and their family. And she's like, and some nights the kids fight, you know, and you know, yell over who gets to blow the candle out, right? But sometimes it's very meaningful. And uh so yeah, it just really challenged me. I actually revisited our podcast conversation on uh nurturing children, like practical tips for child nurture. Do you remember that podcast? I remember you shared your rhythms, and I said, you know, I was doing the catechism and you know, talking to Adam, but I just I was struggling to establish some habits, and uh this really helped me. Um, Adam's going to preschool now, so we started a before and after school routine, and it's already been fruitful, it's already paid off in some pretty awesome ways. So yeah, I could go on on about Jessica's session. I was really proud of her just because here is a like a lay person who said she's very introverted and felt you know very humbled to get up there, but she just I mean, she went to town. It was content rich and it was everybody was paying attention. It was really good.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I was able, I I was in the emergency room at that time, but I was able to, uh, my daughter was streaming it for me, you know, privately. So I was able to listen while I was driving down to Indianapolis during that particular moment. And then I came back later in the day. But um, yeah, so I was really happy to be able to listen to that one, and uh she just absolutely hit it out of the ballpark. Um so many practical takeaways, and we're gonna try to share some clips from that uh sometime in the future as well, and uh share at least a little bit of the sessions with uh with our audience.
SPEAKER_03Okay, um, evening session, you wouldn't have been there. Well, I guess Phil did another afternoon session, right?
SPEAKER_00Because I was scheduled and yep, ended up at the hospital, and so yeah. So he stepped in, I think probably I kind of picked up where he left off, uh, and then uh then he came back uh in the evening and shared again.
SPEAKER_03Talked about Proverbs and Holess and presented the book of Proverbs as a manual for holiness.
SPEAKER_00Um there's there was conversation. I did catch part of the conversation that followed that. Uh so I don't remember what time he stopped the the speaking part, but then it went into conversation. And so there was uh uh you know a number of questions and interaction in regard to uh holiness in general, some discussion on entire sanctification, and uh of course, you know, he was uh approaching it from the wisdom literature, you know, and and making some ties in even with uh I think there's a Hebrews passage that um he had talked about a connection. There was a connection there that he felt like was significant and and appears to be significant.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. You weren't there and you're remembering it better than I was. I just blamped for some reason. I'm like, I didn't take notes and I can't remember what he's talking about. But that's right, that's right. He talked about Hebrews 12 and about you know that famous verse um about pursuing holiness and peace with all men, and how um the author of Hebrews cites Proverbs there, have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons, my son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. Um so he he started out by talking for a while about why would the Hebrew author go to Proverbs? What does that tell us about how he understood Proverbs and its purpose and its role in Christian holiness, and uh just expounded that for a while and gave some practical ways in which um Proverbs can help us to be more uh a more Christ-like, holy, happy, and healthy church. So, yeah, very good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good, good. And then so I I arrived uh during the table conversation. So I was able to get into some of that when I arrived back, and that was uh very enjoyable. Uh and then, of course, Saturday morning at another time of worship, that's when we sang through some of the psalms. Uh that was followed up with uh David Harkoff uh then spoke his final session, and uh he talked about the sacraments and uh in particular the Holy Eucharist and uh the role it plays in um in church health, and uh really a fantastic conversation uh that took place there for about an hour and a half. And uh, you know, a lot of people got involved in the conversation, a lot of great questions. Uh Phil Brown came up, um, of course, David Hartkoff was in the front, he had a microphone, uh, I had a microphone, and so we were all able to uh interact with one another and with um audience members. Uh, and I won't go through all the questions that were asked there, but some really important questions uh were shared. Um, you know, a little bit of survey was was taken, um, and it was really, really helpful. And I felt like people walked away with, wow, I I I have a renewed appreciation, or maybe for the first time, an appreciation for uh why the Holy Eucharist is important for a healthy church. And uh we were able to talk about some some um some issues that might be considered perhaps peripheral to the Holy Eucharist, but are really important to that. And um and that was uh a good opportunity. Uh so that again, those are those are sessions I wish the whole world could hear, but it was it's important in those times because people do ask some pretty personal questions, and uh and so we you know we don't broadcast that, you know, we're not gonna share those on you know in in our podcasts or anything, but uh there will be bits and pieces that we'll be able to share from the from the actual uh speaking portions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was so excited to hear that uh David Harkoff was addressing that. It's uh it's an issue that we've discussed a lot. David and I um have talked about Ramarco Polo in just private conversations, and we just share uh a common passion to retrieve that, especially in conservative Wesleyan churches. And there was a guy in, I think it he said maybe it'd been 15 years at the church that he had attended since they had the um I forget how you said that, or maybe one time in 15 years or something. 41 years. That's right. That's right. I'm thinking of something different. 41 years, one time in 41 years. So think of how different that is from John Wesley, who you know has a sermon on constant communion, tells the Methodist elders to administer it every Sunday, and agrees with the Anglican church that if you take communion less than three times, you ought to be excommunicated in a year. I mean, it's like, whoa, that's pretty radical, you know, different mindset. It's just a very different mindset. We're not even we're so far going from that. What happened? You know, where did we just fall off the wagon? And um, I I just I think David is so good at navigating this conversation because he's so winsome, he's so likable. You know, I I'm I was not the right person to lead that conversation because I'm too passionate, you know. He's passionate, but he's he's better about being winsome and likable. But I heard really great results from that conversation. So it's it's just encouraging to hear that that is is happening. And I've heard across the board, I think there is more and more discussion about the Lord's, and that's really central to Holy Joyce. I mean, that's like one of the core things. I mean, our logo is word and sacrament. Um, and and David Harkoff's all about that as well, word and table. And I think his two sessions were the word in worship, the table in worship. So um, yeah, it's very refreshing, very encouraging.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And even since then, I've had a conversation with another pastor who was not able to attend the conference, but he's uh he you know, he's listening, he's he's learning, he's picking up on this, and is is practicing, trying to practice you know, more frequent communion. And and uh we had a conversation about um you know sort of our background, which I share with him, coming from a you know, sort of the the personal experience of the manifest presence of Christ, right? Where it's where you know the glory of God, you want the you want to feel his presence, right? So that's part of our background, and coupling that with what is often viewed as sort of a high church sacramental liturgy. And and I suggested to him, I said, I really think that we are a unique place in in at least the modern history of the church, where we can draw from our um from our own history that has emphasized personal experience, but we can couple that with a you know a a the ordinance, the sacrament itself, right, that has again been around for two millennia now, uh, and gives form. Those two don't don't have to be the opposite. Right. We can bring them together, we have to be very intentional, but we can bring those two together in order to keep it from being purely subjective and um and uh you know falling into what John Wesley called enthusiasm, um or on one side, or on the other hand, uh something that's dry and uh even esoteric or obscure from you know the person in the pew. But it can be something that that's uh our our liturgy, our worship can be uh vibrant and formative, formal and formative all at the same time. And I think David really brought that through in such a winsome way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, beautiful. Um, absolutely. We don't always feel, you know, we don't always have this experience or this emotional experience, but experience is important and it matters, and we want vital piety. And it reminded me there's a person at my church that didn't take communion for decades because they grew up hearing really harsh preaching about drinking damnation to your soul. And and then they had a parent who, even as a child, when they would go to take communion, would say to this child, to this person as a child, now you be careful, you could drink damnation to your soul. And so for decades, they did not take it, and finally, for the first time in decades, received communion um under our ministry there at the church, and now you know shares communion every week uh at our church and texted me the other day that um this person has been feeling the presence of God and sensing the presence of God most powerfully in our services at communion time. And they said it almost reminds them of what people called an altar call presence in their youth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where when there was this big altar call and the glory of God came in a powerful way, that that's almost what they're experiencing at the table, which is really incredible to hear that. Right, that's just how far they've come in their experience. It's no longer a matter of fear, but of joy in God's presence. So it's it's beautiful. It's there are strengths of our tradition, right? We're not tearing trying to tear down our tradition, we're trying to learn from all of it. The West, that more, you know, we we would probably resonate more. Well, I know we would resonate more with kind of early Methodism than some of kind of its permutations and the American Postman. But there's things we treasure and appreciate about um all of that, our whole Western tradition, and we want to learn from all of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so I I definitely learned uh on that topic as well at this conference, as well as um from the other other sessions and other topics that were discussed. And uh we're already making plans for next year. We've got a um the schedule of of speakers is gonna be a little bit different uh next year as far as uh the length of the sessions and the the interaction, but still gonna be conversation focused. Uh we're gonna hit a lot of different topics and have plenty of time, as always, for uh table conversation as well. So uh we're looking forward to uh next year, August, uh towards the uh end of August 22nd through the 24th is the scheduled conference for 2024 and hope to see everyone there, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We've had a lot of interest in people holding regional conferences. So pastors who say, Hey, I want to get my lay people here, but it's too far away. You know, could you hold one at our church if we have the facilities and the funds and you know, all of that? And so we are exploring the possibility of expanding to other locations. Um, I really enjoy having it there at Frankfurt. You've created, uh, I know you're not going to praise yourself, but you have created a very healthy culture there. And there's something about stepping in to that and just experiencing it that is life-giving, is meaningful. Um, but we we definitely are exploring that possibility. So uh stay tuned. Might be hearing more about that in the very near future.
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