In this episode, Johnathan Arnold and Michael Avery discuss holiness, spiritual formation, and the deeper life.
Highlights:
"Spiritual formation is very simply a process of being conformed to the image of Christ for the sake of others." (Avery)
"Behavior modification basically rests on your own human energy–what you can put into it or what someone else can threaten you to put into it. But spiritual formation comes from a very different approach. It is Spirit-enabled. We can only be formed into the image of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit as we partner with the grace of God." (Avery)
"Justification is by faith and faith alone. It's not performance-based, it's not what we can do or can't do. It is strictly by faith." (Avery)
"Sanctification is a process. We engage it. Paul said, 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.' We are partnering with God's grace, but we are truly partnering. We are initiating effort on behalf of being conformed into the image of Christ." (Avery)
"Even in the ways that we initiative growth in sanctification, that itself is a response to what God has already initiated by saving us." (Arnold)
"We pursue holiness because of what God has done for us. It's a responsive love, not a burden." (Arnold)
"Justification is not an isolated work alone. It is coupled with adoption and regeneration or initial sanctification. Born into the heart of every truly justified believer is a desire to be thoroughly good. They don't even know what to call it, maybe, but planted in our hearts through faith is this desire to be all that God wants us to be." (Avery)
"Growing out the new appetite that God has given us in the new birth is the quest and hunger and pursuit to live a holy life." (Avery)
"Union with Christ includes communion with Christ: that intimate relationship we have with Christ when we have experienced the new birth." (Avery)
"All of the spiritual energy that I have flows from him and through him and by him as I am united with him." (Avery)
"Spiritual formation is the natural outworking and outflowing of Christ in us. We can hinder or help the growth by getting involved and cooperating with the Holy Spirit." (Arnold)
"Ceasing from sin is not a matter of me screwing up my courage and saying, 'This is gonna stop' in my own energy, because it won't happen. The only way to break deep, sinful habits in our life is through the power of the Holy Spirit." (Avery)
"Through the power of the Holy Spirit in me, he can help me to be victorious over anything he doesn't want in my life." (Avery)
"Because our context is increasingly similar to the one in which Paul wrote, we need to be increasingly sensitive to the way Paul frames moral issues." (Arnold)
"If we jump from Romans 1 to Romans 12 and don't understand the 'therefore,' we're calling people to present their bodies a living sacrifice and to be transformed without a foundation." (Arnold)
"Paul brings his converts to a deep understanding of who Jesus is and what it means to be united to him, and then there's a big therefore." (Arnold)
"We want people to obey out of a motive of love for what God has had and what he's doing in my life." (Avery)
"The concept of the 'higher life' or the 'deeper life'—those are old terms that have been tossed around for a long time, they are just broad terms used to describe those who actively embrace an aggressive sanctification process." (Avery)
"Ultimately everything is of grace and by grace. But I also believe, as Dallas Willard coined the phrase, 'Grace is not opposed to effort; it's opposed to earning.'" (Avery)
"We can either cooperate with the grace of God or we can resist it. And I believe cooperating's the best way to go." (Avery)
You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_00
It's a pleasure to sit down for a conversation with Dr. Michael Avery today on the subject of holiness, spiritual formation, and the deeper life. Dr. Avery is the president of Deeper Life Ministries and was named Chancellor of GBSC in 2017 after serving as its president for 22 years. He holds degrees from Wesley Biblical Seminary and Cincinnati Christian University. And he has his hands in a lot of other ministries. He's a busy man on the road a lot, on the road right now. But I'm glad to have this opportunity to chat with him. Thank you for taking the time, Dr. Avery.
SPEAKER_02
Thank you, Jonathan. It's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00
Let's just jump right in here. I like to start by defining terms. Some people may never have heard the term spiritual formation. So what do you mean and not mean uh by spiritual formation? This is something that you talk about a lot. Uh, how do you define it?
SPEAKER_02
It's interesting. Uh, spiritual formation is like uh education. Dallas Willard says everybody's got an education, some good, some bad. And everybody has some level of spiritual formation. Some good, bad, some bad. And spiritual formation is very simply just a process of being conformed to the image of Christ for the sake of others. It's a time-honored way that I believe even Jesus used, the apostles use, the church fathers have used, that enables us to grow and develop and be conformed to the ultimate goal of the gospel, and that's Christ-likeness in our lives.
SPEAKER_00
How is that different from just behavior modification? You know, sometimes we talk about forming children, and that uh often seems like the goal is to get them to just simply act in different ways. So, how do you differentiate spiritual formation from uh just just behavior modification?
SPEAKER_02
Well, they are different, but they're also similar. Uh both are processes. Uh, behavior modification wants to alter behavior patterns through certain learning techniques to produce a desired outcome. And at the same time, spiritual formation wants to do the same thing. Spiritual formation wants to mold and change us through various structures and disciplines and learning techniques to produce the outcome of being Christ-like or holy. So both are a process, both use means to accomplish that process, but the goals are different and the enablement is different. Uh behavior modification basically rests on your own human energy, uh, what you can put into it, what someone else can put into it, or threaten you to put into it. But spiritual formation uh comes from a very very different uh approach. Uh, it is spirit enabled. We can only be formed into the image of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit as we partner with the grace of God. And so that makes it very distinct and unique. Uh in behavior modification, you can actually accomplish certain results or fruits, you might even call it, through uh learning techniques, through sh sheer human uh discipline. But spiritual formation, though again, though there's many similarities, um the ultimate goal, the ultimate fruit, uh spiritual fruit that we want to see produced can only be produced in the context and enabled by the Spirit of God. And so, yes, they're similar, but ultimately quite different.
SPEAKER_00
Spiritual formation in many ways seems to be uh what we often refer to as progressive sanctification. Do you make any distinctions between the two? Is spiritual formation just maybe a broader category?
SPEAKER_02
Yes, you can make a distinction, it but it is really the process, and actually sanctification is that same process of being conformed into the image of God or or uh being conformed into in holiness, growth in holiness. And in some recent studies, uh I found uh the contrast between justification and sanctification. Justification is by faith and faith alone. It's not performance-based, it's not what we can do or can't do, it is strictly by faith. But in the biblical sense, and particularly the New Testament sense, you only see one time in the entire New Testament where faith is connected with the work of sanctification in our lives. Sanctification is a process, we engage it, uh, we partner with God's grace. Paul said, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that worketh in you both to do and to will his good pleasure. We are partnering with God's grace, but we are truly partnering. We are truly uh initiating effort on behalf of being conformed into the image of Christ. We are initiating effort to lay the groundwork uh to produce the environment that God can grow spiritual fruit and produce spiritual fruit in our lives. The old uh Quakers used to say holiness uh doesn't come on wheels, it doesn't just roll up to us. We must engage, we must pursue, we must uh we must be the, as Paul said, the athlete, the farmer, and the soldier. There's a part of this process that we have to exert uh our energy and our will uh to engage it.
SPEAKER_00
Right. And I think starting by by pointing out that justification is is strictly by faith and by God's grace uh is the you know is the necessary foundation because even in the ways that we initiate um growth and sanctification, that really itself is a response to what God has already initiated um by saving us. And like in Romans, uh, when we're called to present our body as a living sacrifice, it's because of what God has already done uh for us in Christ, justifying us, uh providing redemption and wisdom. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02
And then but then there is this sanctification. Yeah. I'm sorry, sanctification clearly rests on justification.
SPEAKER_00
Right. And that's so important for people to understand because sometimes, uh, especially if we have a tr really transactional view of justification, people can get caught up in this kind of uh working mentality that really the heart of of what it means to live in in a way that's pleasing to God is really dependent on my effort. But really, um it's simply uh in response. It's a life of gratitude. We pursue holiness because of what God has done for us. It's the response of love, uh, not this burden. And so it rests in God's grace in that way. But it is important to recognize that uh nobody just sits around and becomes holy. I love the song uh hymn, Take Time to Be Holy. And uh, we're gonna talk a little bit about the spiritual disciplines here, but I think that's a very important point. Uh let's just talk, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02
Let me back up a little bit and address that a little bit more. I believe you're exactly right. Sanctification grows out of rest in the work of justification, but justification is not an isolated work alone. It's unique, it's distinct, but coupled with that, of course, is adoption and regeneration, or what we might call initial sanctification. And I believe that born into the heart of every truly justified believer is this desire to be thoroughly good. They don't even know what to call it, maybe. But planted in our hearts through faith is this desire to be all God wants us to be. Uh, you call it a response of love, which is which is true. But it it's also a simple desire to be everything God wants me to be, and growing out of that passion, out of that desire to thoroughly please God, growing out of this new appetite God has given us in the new birth, is this quest and hunger and pursuit uh to live a holy life.
SPEAKER_00
Right. And I think that's vital with even in Romans 8, we cry, Ah, the Father. You know, one of the marks of the witness of the Spirit is these new upward longings. I think of uh somebody came to mind that I was discipling. I had tried to lead her to the Lord many times, and she prayed. And uh the next time I visited her, she was outside reading her Bible 37 chapters into Genesis, and it was like there was all of a sudden this new desire that she didn't understand that she had never had before. And uh that desire is something that's implanted in us, uh, the implanted word. And uh, and that really leads us right to the next thing that I was going to ask you about, which is union with Christ, because all of these concepts that you mentioned, adoption, justification, regeneration, uh, we could go on and talk about redemption and and just other themes in our salvation are really united in this idea of union with Christ. And it saves us from this just merely legal transactional uh idea in salvation, which there is a legal aspect to it, but it's not just a get out of jail free card. Um, there's the life of God in the soul of man. So can you talk to us a little bit about union with Christ and how that helps us to understand that this spiritual formation, this progressive sanctification, this transformation in Christ-likeness, it naturally flows out of salvation and the salvation that's provided in Christ.
SPEAKER_02
That's interesting. As you well know, union with Christ is a big subject. Uh I doubt I can cover it all in a in a in a soundbite, but um there is a sense, there is a positional sense when we talk about union with Christ from a theological perspective. There's a communal sense and there's a relational sense. And but I like to think of communion with Christ, that intimate relational aspect we have with Christ when we have been uh we've experienced the new birth. It's like the the branch that's engrafted into the vine. All of a sudden there is new life flowing out of that relationship. It's in and through and by Christ that I have my life. I'm connected to him, I identify with him, and all of the spiritual energy that I have flows from him and through him and by him as I am united with him. And through that union, all of these appetites, these affections come and flow. When I talk about union, I want to go back to that, you know, the the very heart of our our being united with Christ births in us uh those appetites and passions to be good, to to grow, uh to have to have hunger and thirst for righteousness. And that all comes uh from that union with Him, that branch that's been implanted in the vine.
SPEAKER_00
You mentioned this this uh image in John 15: abide in me and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I'm the vine, you're the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. And that's really the definition of uh union with Christ. Uh abide in me, we are in Christ, and I in you, Christ is in us. There's this mutual relationship, a sharing of lives, as it's sometimes put. Um, and so Christ comes, the spirit comes and indwells us and unites us to Christ, and then that becomes the source of our life and all of our blessings and of our even of our sanctification. So spiritual formation is really just the natural outworking and outflowing of Christ in us. That's what happens. You know, if you're united, the branches are going to grow. Now, at what rate they grow, um, you know, or how much fruit they bear depends on a lot of other factors. You can hinder the growth or you can help the growth. And uh that's where we get involved and we cooperate with the Holy Spirit in, you know, the disciplines and so forth to help us grow. Yes.
SPEAKER_02
Well said.
SPEAKER_00
One of the passages that uh I wondered if you have any comments on is Colossians chapter three. It's it's my favorite chapter on uh spiritual formation. And I've been teaching through the book of Colossians and uh just am almost finished up with the first chapter. Looking forward to jumping into this. Uh, but sometimes we hear this quoted in isolation: put to death what is earthly in you, um, sexual immorality, impurity, passion, and so forth. You must put away uh all the ways in which you once walked, and then you're supposed to put on um other other practices, other ways of living. Um, but what interests me about this passage is that if you back up a few verses, uh Paul says, if you have been raised with Christ, that's union with him. So you're united to Jesus and raised with him. Um if you have died and your life is hidden with Christ and God, again, that's union with Christ, um, put to death, therefore, for this reason, because you're already positionally dead, you have died, now you're supposed to put to death certain practices. So, um, in your experience, you know, how do you think isolating these kind of like moral injunctions, do this, don't do this, from this doctrine? What are the consequences of that kind of thinking?
SPEAKER_02
Well, the consequences can be frustration on the part of the believer and also a tendency toward just rule-oriented or legalistic-oriented living. Quite frankly, we can only we can only accomplish any of these uh levels of putting off or putting on as we do so through the power of the Holy Spirit within us. You and I obviously believe that Christians cease to practice sin uh in a habitual way when they are truly born again and find new life in Christ. However, it's not uh it's not a matter of me just sort of screwing up my courage and saying, you know, I'm gonna this is gonna stop and this is gonna stop and this is gonna stop in my own energy because it won't happen. It can only happen through the power of the Holy Spirit through the life of Jesus in me. As I engage that power and draw on that power, can any of these things happen? You mentioned not only these very clear statements and patterns of what it means to be united with Christ, his death, his resurrection, his life, uh, but it's also a a great way to talk about uh again spiritual formation or progressive sanctification, where we engage, uh we we get busy uh letting the Holy Spirit evaluate our lives and say, I'm going to put this off, I'm going to put this on. That's a theme Paul carries right on through in uh his other epistles, particularly in Ephesians. Put on, put off, put off the old man, put on the new man. And uh I believe that's a part of what it means of being thoroughly and progressively sanctified. That's what John means by walking in the light as he is in the light, as we learn, as we grow, as we see, uh as the Spirit of God talks to us, as the Word of God reveals these things to us. Some of these may have been deep, deep uh sinful habits in our life. And uh the only way to break those deep uh sinful habits in our life is through the energy, the power of the Holy Spirit. And we have to go into it resting on his energy and resting in his grace, resting in his power as we again partner with his grace. Uh I don't just sit back and say, Well, you know, I've got I've got this problem in my life, this sin. I want you to deal with it. No, I don't do that, but at the same time, I don't try to tackle it completely on my own because in in my in my human energy I'm gonna fail. It's only again as I partner with the grace of God. And uh it's even possible I may not succeed the first time around because there is a learning curve. Some things we don't know as new Christians, but as we grow, as we learn, as we learn how to engage the spirit that is within us, the power and grace that can be unleashed within us. As we learn how to engage those and apply those, we can certainly find a complete victory over these things that um Paul is enumerating, we need to put off.
SPEAKER_00
I think we make a good point about spiritual frustration. I think a lot of uh Christians experience that, especially younger Christians, um, new disciples. And uh when you become a believer, I mean you're just bombarded with all these expectations. I mean, if you just take one of these things, one of these isolated examples like um like sexual immorality is the first thing that Paul says. Um, just that very thing. I mean, if you're you're you're practicing uh all kinds of uh you have relational entanglements and you're addicted to pornography or whatever, and then suddenly you get saved, and all you understand about salvation is that I asked for forgiveness and God forgives me. I prayed this little prayer, but now I'm just bombarded with, okay, now you have to stop doing all of this and impurity and passion and evil desire and covetousness, and you have to tithe, and you have to, you know, do all of these things. It's just overwhelming because it just feels like this full burden is placed on you. But but if you understand I'm putting this to death because Christ, through the indwelling Christ, I'm already, I'm already dead, I've already died, I'm already crucified. Um, you realize that really all that's happening here is the spirit now, if I just cooperate with him, he's gonna work these things out in my life as I as I obey him, as I walk with him moment by moment. And uh understanding union with Christ and where I how I stand before God positionally, and that God approves of the life of Christ in me, that's liberating. And uh that's one of the things that as a pastor, I've tried to help people understand um, you know, how this just relates to the way that that we live, because there's a lot of Christians just go 10, 20, 30 years under the burden of just a lot of expectations without ever really understanding that if without the power of Christ in them, which is which is available to them, they can't do it. But once they let go and trust that that God has made this power available through Christ, who indwells us by his spirit, then then that resurrection life is unleashed in us. That's really a liberating thing. And I don't think it it makes us passive. I don't think it creates passivity. And you you warn against that. I think it's very important. But I think if we really understand this, it's actually it's liberating and it's exciting and it's freeing, and uh, we are called to to work out sanctification from this position of freedom uh in Christ.
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely. I I I you said it very well, I couldn't agree more. And you mentioned young believers. There is clearly a learning curve. There may have been a time in our culture when our culture was so aware and knowledgeable of Judeo Christian values that that a new convert sort of immediately knew, you know, oh, I shouldn't be doing some of these things, these are bad. Uh I'm not so sure that's true anymore. I've met people in uh deeper life conferences and churches where they were they didn't really have. A challenge to be holy. And I'm thinking of one young woman in particular who came up to me after a session in Galatians and walking in the spirit. And she said, You know, I heard you say that, you know, if we're going to live in the spirit, we're not going to fulfill the lust of the flesh. And you enumerated those sins of the flesh, one of which is, you know, adultery, immorality. And she said, I live with my boyfriend. I've lived with him for two years. And I just turned to Galatians chapter 5 and I said, Here, read this list of the uh the sins of the flesh. She had never seen those. She she didn't know they were there, it seems. And it's amazing. She wrote me later and she said, God the Holy Spirit showed her that you know this is wrong based on the word of God, and she moved out and lived uh, you know, a victorious, wonderful, it still is a wonderful, victorious Christian life. So there's clearly a learning curve in a post-Christian pagan culture that we live in. Uh and I think we need to be sensitive to that. At the same time, uh we should we should not uh sort of succumb to uh the other side and fall in the other ditch of just uh you know well after all we're just uh mere mere flesh. I d I don't believe that. I believe that as the Spirit of God comes into our life in the new birth, that we can in fact live and walk in the power of the Spirit, and as new light, new knowledge, uh new insight comes our way, we don't have to lean on our own understanding, we don't have to lean on our own strength. Through the power of the Holy Spirit in me, uh, he can help me be victorious over anything he doesn't want in my life, whatever that is.
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely. I think you uh make a good point about the challenge of spiritual formation in our culture because these uh these moral expectations aren't even clear sometimes. And that's really the context in which Paul was ministering. And so I think we need to be increasingly sensitive to the way that Paul frames these moral issues. We we uh put off and put on because uh of these other um realities that have that have been made possible to us through union with the sun, through faith in Christ. And uh, and if we jump from Romans 1 to Romans 12 and uh don't understand the therefore, uh we're calling people to present their bodies, a living sacrifice, to be conformed not to the world, but transformed by the removing of our minds. We're calling to people to spiritual formation without a foundation. And uh that's vitally important too. And I think that learning curve is so helpful to understand because uh I've heard stories, unfortunately, in the past uh of times when somebody gets comes and prays and uh professes to believe in Christ as Lord, and then they're just bombarded with all these moral expectations. But you see Paul really bringing his converts to a deep understanding of who Jesus is and what it means to be united to him. And then there's this big word there for. And only once you understand the weight of that doctrine, then can you really pursue um that spiritual formation. So giving people room to grow, understanding that that there is a learning curve and it is a process and that it rests on these greater truths, I think could bring a lot of health to the way that we teach and preach holiness in the local church.
SPEAKER_02
Absolutely. Not only does it bring health, I think it removes this uh dreaded expectation that we want people to fear the Lord, to fear the word, to honor God, to obey, but not out of a motive of uh fear, uh the wrong kind of fear, but out of a motive of love, you know, based on what he's done, what he's doing in my life. And again, born into the heart of every new believer is just this new life, new desire, new passion to thoroughly be all God wants me to be.
SPEAKER_00
And that that needs a lot of fleshing out, uh, especially and you just let that that rule in your heart, you know. Let the peace of Christ rule in your heart, let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. Uh, it's about letting that have its way, uh, the the indwelling Christ have his way, and uh and not uh succumbing to the the lusts of the flesh, but just cooperating. You mentioned the deeper life. You you uh obviously named your ministry after that. You hold these deeper life conferences. Um, I'd be interested just to know where did you pick up that phrase and uh and why has it become so important to you? What do you mean by it? And how does that relate to spiritual formation?
SPEAKER_02
Uh many, many years ago, probably 25 years ago, a friend of mine was uh renewing and revitalizing a church that was about to close in Hollywood, Florida, and God gave him wonderful success with uh all kinds of people, every everything from street walkers to managers of uh large department stores, gave him an unusual success. But as he was pastoring those people, uh his background, of course, was Wesley and he asked me to come. He said, he said, these people have no concept of terminology, of theology. He said, I just want them to go deeper. He said, let's let's have a deeper life weekend. And so I went to Hollywood, Florida, and I gave them the biblical call to holiness, to surrender, to be all that God wanted them to be. And that's how the name came about. But actually, the whole concept of the higher life, the deeper life, those are old terms uh that have been tossed around for a long time, but they're just broad terms used to describe those who actively embrace an aggressive sanctification process. Uh to the to some reform theologians, that whole idea is anathema. They they just repulse it the thought of you and I engaging in our sanctification or in the sanctification process. In their minds, it's all it's all of God. God does it all, because whatever happens to us, it's a it's of God. Obviously, ultimately, everything's of grace and by grace. I get that, but I also believe that we uh as Dallas Willard s coined the phrase grace is not opposed to effort, it's opposed to earning. And to me that kind of says it all. We can't earn our salvation, we can't earn any merit with God. However, we can partner with grace, uh, we can throw our lives passionately into pursuing holy living, pursuing godly living, pursuing obedient lives, uh, Christ-like lives. Of course we can pursue that. And of course we can do things and bring disciplines and structures into our life that enable that process to happen. We can either cooperate with the grace of God or we can resist it. And I believe cooperating is the best way to go.
SPEAKER_01
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