Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Navigating Crisis Times in the Local Church
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In this episode, Darrell Stetler II and Johnathan Arnold discuss leading the church through crisis times and the coronavirus pandemic.
- Flexibility and a can-do attitude is essential in the leadership of a church.
- I want to be the kind of leader who is a "Yes, and..." leader, not a "Yes, but..." leader.
- The paralysis of analysis is a real thing—where you get frozen trying to find the "right path." But in many cases, it's not about doing the "right thing," it's about doing something. A car is much easier to steer when it's moving.
- The biggest mistake that pastors can make in times of crisis is to not take any care of themselves—their own spiritual, physical, and emotional life. You're best equipped to help someone else in crisis if you have your foot on something solid.
- A huge mistake that pastors can make in times of crisis is to surrender to negative emotion—pride, anger, bitterness, or impatience.
- Don't quit in the middle of crisis. It's a huge abdication of leadership and responsibility. Running away when the wolf is coming is not a good plan.
Don't quit in the middle of crisis. It's a huge abdication of leadership and responsibility. And running away when the wolf is coming is not a good plan. So don't quit.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_02I'm happy to be able to have a conversation with Daryl Stettler II. Daryl is a pastor and blogger. He has a passion for helping small churches and busy pastors by providing preaching resources and tools that make ministry less stressful and to make pastors more productive. We agreed to discuss the topic of navigating times of crisis in the local church. And it's still a very relevant topic for many of us as this pandemic continues to linger. And although we can never fully prepare for a crisis time, I'm looking forward to this time as an opportunity to learn how I can be a better shepherd to God's people in troubled times. Daryl, thanks for taking the time to talk about this important subject.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Jonathan. It's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_02Before we jump in, uh can you just share a little bit about how your church uh has navigated the coronavirus crisis and maybe some uh takeaways, general lessons that you've learned that we could we could all benefit from going forward?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um wow, this has been some kind of year, hasn't it? Um mind-blowing. Every time it seems like uh maybe things are gonna go a little more normal, uh, something else comes down the pike that is definitely not normal. So it's been a weird, uh, a weird time for all of us and in our church is is no exception. Um we actually uh we we've we've had um uh several different phases to this. Um in the early phase uh when when it seemed like um everything was shutting down, the big shutdowns nationwide, and all of that. Uh we live in Oklahoma. Um I'm a pastor in Oklahoma City, and so uh we were a little less, maybe a little less dramatic um in terms of response than some places. Um but it's still there was uh you know a a uh uh a prohibition on gathering for more than 50 people and things like that. And so that would make it where we couldn't have our services. So, so I think the first uh the first thing that that we did that was kind of I felt like was a lesson that that we could all benefit from, it reminded me of the importance of of flexibility and a can-do attitude uh within the leadership of your church. Um so flexibility, uh, you know, we we decided to literally at the last at the last moment, we said, you know what, why don't we do um somebody somebody I think it was my wife said to me in a casual conversation, maybe we should just do drive-in church and have everybody pull in and we'll just broadcast. And that was before we knew anybody else was doing it. It kind of became a thing, uh, you know, nationwide. But um uh we we got in before we knew anybody else. I went and Googled uh um you know FM transmitters and I talked to our church board and one of them kind of grabbed it and ran with it and said, you know, what if we did that? What if we just did it? And uh several people, young some young guys in the church, uh kind of caught that vision, jumped in and um called me on a uh texted me early on a on a um Thursday morning and said, What if we did that? What if we did drive in? And I called, and by the way, this this to me is is a big deal for for leaders. I I called him and said, Okay, um, talk to me, convince me. Um, because I want I want to be the kind of leader who is not a yes but leader, but a yes and leader. And so so rather than being a person who says, yeah, but I just don't think we, you know, I want to be a person who says, okay, and what if we also did this, you know, and and be a yes and person is one of the passions of my of my leadership and collaboration sort of uh mindset. So the flexibility we we built in a very short time, we built and transitioned our sound system, built a stage, transitioned our sound system outside and uh purchased some supplies we would need and put up uh some screens that we use uh on the back of things. We couldn't move our grand piano outside, so we did some other things and uh used uh video tracks and sound tracks and and things. And so it was uh it was a very flexible and everybody was incredibly gracious. Our actually our uh attendance went up during drive-in because there were some other churches that didn't have services for a period of time. And um, and so we actually wound up having several people uh come over, and our attendance was up higher uh during that time than it was uh other times. So eventually we we went back into in-person services after a number of weeks of drive-in. But um it just uh the idea of flexibility and a can-do spirit was was, I think, uh really, really important uh for us in that kind of moment. It enabled us to think differently about online ministry. And um there was there's some guys in the church that use their gifts to to know how to put all that together, and and I'm really grateful for guys uh like that. We had to adjust our food pantry uh because the food pantry we serve uh last year about 20,000 people, and our our all of a sudden we we couldn't keep people standing in line, you know, two feet from each other uh as we used to do. And so we changed and left people in their cars and rerouted the cars through our parking lot and changed our systems, you know. Um so it was a a significant, a lot of significant changes in a short period of time. But it enabled us to serve more people and and do it in a way that was more comfortable for some folks who were, you know, quite worried about things. And uh so a lot of different uh a lot of different changes in in ministry. But I think having that flexibility and a can-do sort of spirit and having a yes and it was it was a really important thing in in terms of trying to figure out how to respond to sudden crisis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's great. And I I think I've observed that sometimes it's better to do something than nothing, you know, just trying something. And uh and sometimes we look at people who are trying these creative ideas, and uh, and it's scary to step out and do that, and and sometimes it takes somebody else to lead the way. Um but one of the things about crisis times is when you when you're slammed with something, it's put at your front door, you don't always have a lot of time to respond. And uh and one of the things that looking back, I wish we would have been a little more proactive, we maybe waited too long because you're you're not sure what to do and you're afraid to do the wrong thing. But I think that that fear can paralyze you, and sometimes stepping out and taking a risk and just trying something. Um, you know, being creative and and opening up to ideas can be can be really helpful. Yeah. You mentioned different stages. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Uh so the the paralysis of analysis is is a real thing, um, where you just kind of get frozen uh as you're trying to figure out the right path. And a lot of times it's not about the right path, it's about doing something and moving because it just like a car is a whole lot easier to steer when it's moving, so is an organization and a person. And so that just sitting still actually makes it a lot more difficult. Uh, it's like trying to turn something without power steering. You know, it's when it's moving, that's when it's the easiest to steer. And um, so yeah, taking some kind of action rather than being like, I want to find the correct diet plan, you'll actually make a lot more progress if you just say, I'm gonna pick one and move forward, and then I'll change if I need to. Uh so it's uh a whole lot better to take that kind of try, fail, learn, repeat uh sort of attitude uh is a whole lot more effective in the long run.
SPEAKER_02No, that's great. That forward momentum. Um sometimes organizations, people you you have strife, you have division, these kind of things form when the when the organization's not going anywhere. But if everybody's being pulled in a forward direction, it's a lot harder to get into that tailspin. And you need that momentum to get out of that tailspin, you know. So I think that's uh it's a great takeaway. What I was gonna say is you you mentioned different stages in the in the process. Where's your church at right now? Um, I think if I if I'm correct, you're you're you're about to open up. Um a lot of pastors still struggling knowing what to do, but it's unique for every situation. Uh, where's your church at right now?
SPEAKER_01So we had another really another phase of this that hit us here recently because we had actually opened back up and everything was relatively normal. Oklahoma City has a mask mandate, but churches are exempt if they are practicing distancing. So I'll on Sundays I've been, you know, I'll wear a mask out in the foyer while I'm shaking hands with people. We have uh we took out all our four-year furniture to keep people from you know being crunched more tightly together and having temptation to just sit down and fellowship around too much. But so we took actions like that. We did ever we're doing every other row and those kinds of things. But then um we we had uh situation where I uh I got I contracted coronavirus myself. So I've had COVID-19, um, and so did my wife. Um and so it's been it's been quite a journey. We I found out on a Saturday that I had tested positive. I found out on a Friday that that I had been exposed to it. And that Friday evening I was developing kind of a dry cough and maybe some aches and pains, and I thought, uh-oh, uh when I got the call. So I I um I scheduled a test for myself the next day, and that afternoon, Saturday afternoon, I found out that I was positive. So we just had to shut everything down. I was feeling pretty rotten by the Saturday evening. And uh so we shut everything down for one Sunday and then did online only for the next two weeks. So we're actually on almost this coming Sunday, we should be back open. Yeah. Um, so it's it's just a different different phase, and in every phase, you just flex and try to figure out what is um what's the core of what we we do and and try to make it possible to to do that in a way that fits you know governmental regulations. I I don't have a lot of time for uh being uh angry and grumpy about all that, although I have my opinions. I just don't have a lot of time to be uh I feel like it's a complete waste of emotional energy um to be angry and grumpy about it. Um I'll sometime I'll vote for it, uh vote about it, and um and I'll remember things at that appropriate time. But for now, uh we'll just live in the in the moment uh because we're trying to exhibit something I'll talk about later, I expect, and that is just just a patience with one another during crisis. Uh so that's that's kind of where we are right now. We're we're getting back to normal, I hope. Uh well back to distanced normal. So that's just where we are. It's such a strange moment.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, that that brings me to another question that I I wanted to raise, and that is, you know, what do you think the biggest mistakes are that pastors can make in times of crisis? Uh we mentioned one of them is is being paralyzed by analysis, just uh not doing anything. Uh, but what are some of the other mistakes that pastors need to be aware of and avoid as much as possible in these kinds of times?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I want to be careful here because I it it's a danger that I it could sound like I've got something figured out. I would just say the biggest makes that mistakes that pastors can make in leading in times of crisis are probably all the ones I make. Uh so and I'm sure my people would probably agree because uh it's just I I'm not I'm a million miles from a perfect leader, and none of us have this figured out. Right. But perfection is not really the goal of leadership. Um, just trying to figure out how to appropriately uh respond and keep something moving forward. Um, I would say if you if you kind of envision the pastor and his life and family and church and all of that as kind of a series of concentric circles, I would start in the middle and say um the biggest mistake that pastors could make in times of crisis is not at all taking care of themselves, um, their own spiritual life, um, their own physical uh self and uh emotional existence. Uh they they train lifeguards, they tell me. I'm not a lifeguard, I'm not trained that way, but they say they train lifeguards to never get so close to a drowning person that they can be grabbed. You know, um that there's they have to, in other words, keep some measure of self-determination and some measure of distance there. And so taking care of yourself, you're best equipped to rescue somebody else and help somebody else in crisis if you have your foot on something solid or you have you know control of where you are. And so not taking care of yourself spiritually or physically or emotionally, you're not doing something that restores yourself, you're not doing set things that are uh practices that are feeding your uh your margin and those kinds of things, I think is a huge, huge mistake. Um because you can't eventually you can either sit down or God will sit you down. Um and so I I think that that's a crucial thing. And then if you if you kind of move out from that center circle of of your own life, I think it's a huge mistake would be not pastoring the little church in your home, um, making sure that you're shepherding your wife and um that you know that relationship. Years ago, I I know that uh Andy Stanley's uh name is not highly popular in some circles, and so I don't wish to uh put a stamp of approval on everything he's ever said, but I I heard him give a talk years ago uh based off his little book called Choosing to Cheat. Um and he said basically this, he said, I'm gonna put two scriptures together that nobody ever puts together. Um he said the first one is Jesus said, I will build my church. And the other one is love your wife as Christ loved the church. And he said, basically, if you if you put those two together and you try to execute them in light of each other, he said, What what you the conclusion you come to is you can either cheat the church that Jesus promised to build or the wife that he told you to love. And that uh that stuck with me uh for years. And I said, you know what, that's I saw my dad, I saw my dad do that. I saw my father um not cheat his family in order to do ministry. And it stuck with me. And so in times of crisis, everyone runs a lot closer to the margin, uh to the the edge, you know, because there's so much change and so much chaos and uncertainty, and that takes a toll spiritually and mentally and even physically. And so uh making sure you're taking care of your family is is a huge, huge important thing. And so I've I've tried to tried to do that and uh make sure that I'm um close and available and those sorts of things. Um I think that uh one front one other thing that that relates to uh your own spiritual life, but starts connecting to the things outside is that a huge mistake that I see some pastors make in times of crisis is surrendering to negative emotion, uh pride toward other people. You know, I just know so much more than these stupid people around me, you know, or or anger, uh how dare they treat me that way, or how dare they not consider my feelings, or um, or bitterness, um, just uh unforgiveness, you know, not not being patient with the people they're called to lead, whether it's uh they're they're themselves or their family or in their church. And that's a that's a big deal. Um so I I think that those are are some of the mistakes that I've seen pastors make. And I I want to those are things I want to avoid.
SPEAKER_03Um that's excellent. Finally, ultimately quitting.
SPEAKER_01Ultimately quitting, you know, is is uh I think a mistake. Don't don't quit during crisis. No, quit on your terms, you know, quit on on times when you can leave well. Don't quit in the middle of crisis. Uh it's a huge abdication of leadership uh and responsibility, and running away when the wolf is coming is not a good plan. Uh so don't quit.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. No, that's actually that's exactly what I was just gonna say. I've heard more about pastoral burnout and pastoral depression in the last several months than I probably have for for years. And uh I think we need to be aware uh of how some pastors are hurting, and maybe you know, some churches this this may not have taken as much a toll on them as as other churches. It it depends on the situation, the context. Um, but we're we really don't know what other pastors are going through. And uh maybe one of the things that I would just mention as another mistake is not reaching out for help, thinking that you have to you have to handle it all on your own. And one of the things that I've enjoyed is is uh the opportunity to connect with other pastors and ask them, uh, you know, hey, what are what are you doing? And uh I have a pastor with with another gentleman and he actually called a pastor in the community that he hasn't talked to for a while, and they just they they discuss some of the measures they were taking. And so I think it's important for us to be connected to other leaders, especially churches that you know you're you're passionate about helping smaller churches. Smaller churches tend to not have um the the leadership, maybe the the plurality of leaders, and they might not have a strong board, they might be more likely to uh to feel like they're alone in a time like this, and uh, even if they don't have a lot of people in their congregation to help bear that burden of leadership, I think it's so important to reach out to somebody and walk through this together because we when we face something we've never faced before, it requires great wisdom. And uh God has promised to give us wisdom, but one of the ways that he answers that prayer for wisdom uh is through other people. And I think it's vitally important that we're connected.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Um you look at um Exodus chapter 18 and Moses, who was in a uh crisis of leadership, and Jethro comes along and gives him some great advice um to reach out to others and gives give away, delegate. That's crucial. Um, I I would I would say and just a huge amen to that. Um and specifically, just I I have three three uh types of of reaching out that I do um very intentionally, and and it has to be intentional. It can't be just accidental. But so so I have a person that's a mentor to me that I call and once a week I uh he gives me uh 30 minutes of his time. I call him and I'll ask questions and just uh bounce things off and seek his counsel about things. I have a peer, another pastor, that I have for the last couple of years uh spent time with. Um in the I'll spend about 30 minutes once a week. And uh he actually calls me, but it's an appointment that's on my calendar. And so he'll call and we'll just talk for 30 minutes. And the the primary um the primary question we'll ask is what are the stressors in your life right now? And so then we'll just we'll just converse about those things. He'll tell me about what's going on in his life, his family, his church. I'll do the same. Um, and we'll just be honest with one another if we're facing temptation um to whatever degree, we'll talk about that and we'll pray together. And um uh so it it's it's I've been really surprised. I'm a I'm a super independent sort of person. Um, I don't feel a heavy need for other people and other relationships a lot of times, but I have been pleasantly surprised at how being intentional in that way has benefited me. He actually called me and said, uh, he said, I took a resilience test and my resilience score was really low. And he said, uh, I know from past training and experience that uh resilience goes upward when you have somebody to talk to. Would you mind being that person for me? And I said, sure, because I'm uh we're we're friends. And so he caught he started calling me. But what I was surprised by is how much it helped me in the process and uh to have somebody that I could just unload something to uh once a week. So yeah, huge, huge amen to what you just said.
SPEAKER_02Mentioned uh, you know, biblical plurality of leadership, the need in the local church for for multiple people to share the burden, and uh we can't really have a thorough discussion about this uh right now. But um, can you just tell us? We've met I think we've actually discussed this in the past at some point. You know, what do we mean when we talk about a biblical plurality of eldership and and how is that one uh one aspect of building a church that's able to navigate a crisis time?
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely. So there's a there's a whole um a whole podcast there in the world. Yeah, there's entire books, entire books have been written. Right. But yeah, plurality of leadership, um, especially as expressed in deacons and elders, is a very biblical concept. In fact, it's the only biblical structure of leadership in the church. Um, and some some people might kind of freak out by. That, what I mean is it's the it's the one that the Bible expresses. And so for the quick background for those who might not be aware of this issue, pastor is actually the least common word for a church leader in the New Testament. Uh, the most common word is elder. Um, and every single church in the New Testament had more than one elder. Um, if you do the study and you look at from from Acts 14, 23, which is the first time that uh eldership is mentioned, uh, they appointed elders for them, plural, in every church. And then you go on and you can see uh tons of other places the exact same thing happens. Uh, the the over and over again, it's to the elders plural. And so the bottom line is to come up with the idea of a single pastor church, kind of the one guy at the top that's got the word from the Lord and goes up to the mountain to meet face to face with God and then comes down to step into the pulpit and bring the word of God. That that one pastor idea, to get that idea, you have to look somewhere other than the New Testament. Um you have to get that somewhere else. Most of our leadership structures in our churches come from kind of a hybrid of business and government. So you've got like the CEO and board of directors or the president and Congress, you know. Um but plurality of eldership means multiple people that are qualified according to you know the passages in Titus and First Timothy. Um, and so I it's a long-term goal for me to have much better uh direction there and much better structure in our local church. Uh, but there are some young leaders that are coming along that I'm very uh excited about and proud of. In fact, um one of the things that that plurality of eldership or plurality of leadership helps with is first of all, sounding board. You know, in the multitude of counselors, there's wisdom, Proverbs says. And so you get to have a sounding board there. And then uh unity, just the the uh not just the one guy at the front, um, but a group of guys that are biblically qualified and strong and have integrity and the respect of the congregation coming together to say, we think this is the right way. That's a huge thing. And it it contributes to authority and and then also help, just the uh the sense of having a team is an incredibly, incredibly valuable thing. I'm not by myself, I'm with a group that is that is on the same page, is a huge, huge deal. So currently I don't have a team of elders, uh, although I have some guys I have high hopes for that are coming along. But I have uh we do have a deacon team. And so I'll just give an example. Yesterday, my wife uh took a meal to a an elderly couple in our church that is shut in. Um, but uh not that long ago, it was another person uh on the deacon team who his wife took a meal, and they they went and checked in with them. And then the week before that, I I actually just recently added it was a great young guy in our church uh named Bryce that uh I'm so excited for. Uh he was uh saved in in prison uh a few years ago and has uh got out and became part of our church, and God is just growing this guy like crazy, and I'm I'm incredibly proud of him. But he was he recently um I talked to the deacon team and said, I want to bring this guy on uh because I found out, like outside, outside of normal conversation, I found out he was just going by to visit people in the hospital, and he was just going by to visit people who were shut in. And I said, Oh, that's the like I gotta have that guy. Uh with a guy with a heart like that, you got to have him just to help and to be there and to be a sounding board. Um, the core the the guidance of the Holy Spirit is often expressed corporately in the New Testament. So it seemed good in Acts 15, it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. Um and so that corporateness of the guidance and the leadership of the Holy Spirit, while they were praying and fasting, the Holy Spirit said in uh when Paul and and uh Barnabas were being set apart for the work they were that God called them to. So corporate, the way that the Holy Spirit often doesn't just lead one guy by zapping him with holy feelings, he leads a group of men to come to a consensus and and seem that they together are expressing the leadership of the Holy Spirit. So, oh, huge, huge concept, especially in times of crisis.
SPEAKER_02Right. Before you before you apply that just a little more to the present circumstances, and some of the application I think is fairly straightforward, just a quick word of qualification. You're not saying that it's unbiblical to have a senior pastor. And I personally think we can make a uh pretty strong case that Titus, Timothy were a first among equals, you know, on an elder team. The idea is that it's not just one senior pastor and then maybe a board of people who come and vote but don't really have any uh actual role in discipling and in shepherding. But this is really a team of pastors, shepherds, elders. They have a pastoring responsibility. They're they're taking up the task, you know, they're helping to rule the church. Um and and somebody can be a pastor and not labor in preaching and teaching. It doesn't mean they never preach or teach, but that's not their primary responsibility. So I think this this model, it's something uh maybe we can get together and talk about in more depth at some time, but this is just one way that I think uh can really be, can really help if we would reclaim this model of leadership in the church. These are the times when the senior pastor just feels the brunt of it so much and and really team team ministry can carry us through. So maybe just give us a few more words of like maybe an example or some application for for uh just getting a clear idea how this can be one way to build a church that's resilient in crisis times.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so resilience, um, I mentioned a minute ago, resilience is is often a function of more than one person. Um it's it's something that comes where is is expressed when you're in relationship, you're most resilient. And um so I I think that that in in local churches and and in our church, um when we've gone through a really difficult crisis, uh whether it's coronavirus um or whether it is in the past, we've had situations where, you know, we had a situation at uh at about a year after I'd been here for in Oklahoma City for about a year, and we had a number of people, including about 50% of our tithe income, that left the church. And um getting the the church board together and kind of defining reality together and looking it in the face is a sober time, but it's it's not something you have to do alone. And that was uh that was a huge moment. And that was obviously a church board, and it was it was maybe not a plurality of elders, but it was a team leadership concept. And I think that regardless of whether I I doubt that there's anybody listening to this, that pastors that just have the ability to flip a switch and suddenly change their current model of governance. So I don't wish to to put that on them. I just want to say that that getting a team of people around you uh and having the conversations necessary is isn't important, is an important part of leadership in and uh in this kind of moment, especially in these moments of crisis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, perfect. That was my very next question for churches that they they maybe pastors who do feel like uh they're alone and they don't have this kind of team, how do they navigate that? But but I think you make uh you know I think you made some good points. And and one of the things that came comes to my mind is just the decision-making side of things. And that's that's where a board can can function equally well. Um just an ordinary ordinary church board. We've had to make some hard decisions. Uh trying to know when to shut down, it's been very hard for some pastors, and uh it wears on your mind. And you and when we originally shut down, we just wrestled for weeks. Did we make the wrong decision? What are the consequences of this going to be? And you know, you have people that think, you know, unfortunately, it's all a hoax, and and uh your pastor's just pandering, and then you have other people that think you should have shut down sooner, you're not taking it seriously enough. Absolutely. And uh, and if you if you make those hard decisions as a team, uh there's a there's a much greater chance that there's gonna be your your congregation's going to accept it. Uh because maybe they're not maybe they're not sure what they think about your approach to leadership, but they may have a lot of confidence in somebody on your board. And so knowing that there's a there's a team of men who are leading you with bringing together their collective wisdom, it does help to pass down and make these decisions.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_02And and I think one of the things that we found helpful, I I uh currently serve at a small country church and we've been making some uh some very positive progress in the leadership area, but still have some challenges. One of the things that we did uh a few years ago when we did not have um really anyone to turn to in terms of making some of these decisions is put together just some kind of like almost a council. We had to make some big decisions, and we just pulled in some of the most respected senior members of the congregation uh to just help us to make these decisions. Because the more people you can get to to take ownership, um uh to to buy in, communication I think is key here, you know, uh, the more likely uh you are gonna be to have a healthy result. Before we move on to the next question, this is in a in a broader discussion of what are the what are the various marks of a church, a healthy church? Because it hopefully in a few months we'll be past the coronavirus, and uh and it hopefully it will be a while before we face anything like this again. But uh what I want to do is I want to learn, I don't want to just put this behind us and forget about it. I want to learn what what I can do to establish a healthy church that's more resilient. What are some other marks of a healthy church that that help to navigate these times? We've mentioned the importance of a plurality of leadership, leadership teams, we've we've mentioned the importance of a healthy pastor, um, getting people involved. What are some other marks of a healthy church that come to mind?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so uh, you know, it there's a lot of things you could say. Obviously, there have been entire books written in that as well, in that area as well. But specifically in times of crisis, in times of crisis, churches can they can either come together or they can splinter. And I think that that the difference can can really be traced back to a couple of different things. Like I like to go to the scripture and say, what does the scripture say? Is there any any precedent or is there any uh place where you know Paul or other letters or examples or acts and you know of the apostles that kind of show the way here? And you know, there's a clarity of mission is something that's really valuable for churches to have, a clarity and understanding of what our mission is is really, really crucial in times of crisis because you come together around those things. If if a church has come together around a different set of things, when those things go away, the purpose of you or the thing that the glue goes away, the glue that holds the church together. And so I look at things like 1 Corinthians, and you know, here's a church in crisis. Paul's writing a letter to a church in crisis, they're divided, they're in sin, they're uh their sin in the congregation, and there's just a huge, huge uh set of issues there. And he basically does two things. He refocuses them on Jesus and the cross and and the importance, the crucialness of uh of gathering around that, centering themselves around Jesus and his cross and that that mission, the proclamation of that mission. And he says, you know, I know I knew nothing among you except Jesus and Him crucified. Um he points to Jesus and the cross as kind of the centerpiece of uh gathering around the work of Christ uh becomes the centerpiece of that church. And then a little bit later on, he talks about how that plays itself out emotionally in the church. And and I would I would argue that 1 Corinthians 13 becomes the core of what uh of that, of how emotionally this cross-centeredness is supposed to play itself out. He says, uh, you know, there's a higher way beyond just even the exercise of our gifts or um the the what what role you have or what your job is in the church, there is something higher, and that is loving one another. And and he opens up, you know, the the reality that it's not so much just about your sacrifice and what you can bring to the table, but loving the Lord and each other. And so that looks like being patient with each other, being kind with each other and those things. A lot of times we quote 1 Corinthians 13 at weddings, but it's really for churches. Uh, I don't have any problem with it being for weddings. That's fine. But for churches, if there's not a love for one another, we're not expressing one of the key marks of health. If there's not patience with one another, if there's a quickness to shut each other down and cut each other off, um, we are really having a problem. If you go to other books in the New Testament, same thing. First Peter is written to a church in crisis. At this time, the crisis is persecution and pain and trial. And he he just zones in on um on Jesus and and his work. And then he says in 1 Peter 1.22, now that you've purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply from the heart. So what what keeps churches from flying apart is a shared passion for Jesus and his work that flows into a passion for each other and seeing the work of God being accomplished in each other. Uh, a self-sacrificing, others understanding, listening, um, love for your brothers and sisters, kind of a a covenant-ness that says, I'm not going anywhere. You know, you and I might disagree on whether or not this coronavirus thing is real, but I'm not going anywhere. You and I might disagree with whether or not, you know, Donald Trump is the man of the hour, but I'm not going anywhere. Uh, you and I might disagree on whether or not the racial stuff in our country, uh, which, you know, which way that should be handled, but I'm not going anywhere. Um, I love you, I'll listen to you, I'll care about you, and I'll defend you. Um I'm sorry, I'm uh this is something I'm I'm just deeply passionate about because this is a way that that lay people, if you want to use that term, the saints, the believers in a church who are not pastors, this is a way that they can contribute to their pastor in ways that can't that I can't even put into words. If you love the people in your church and you love your pastor and you are committed to them, you're not going anywhere, regardless of how deeply you may feel like there's there's disagreement. I'm not I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. I love you, I'm here, I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna understand, I'm gonna give space for you to be different than me. Oh, that's that's huge. And it's uh it's a mark of a healthy church.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm so glad you took the conversation this way because you know, up until this point, we've talked quite a bit about the more organizational dimensions of navigating in Christ's time. And I think uh I know at least I have felt that uh that that challenge because there is there's a lot of logistical challenges, and we need to work through those issues. But behind that, and and more primary than that, is our just our identity as Christ followers. And so, yeah, you know, a healthy church needs plurality of eldership, it needs membership because you're you need people that are bought in. It's much easier to leave the church when you're not bought in. But beyond behind all that, you need people who are united around one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one gospel. You know, and if you're united in that, you're gonna be, you're gonna be like, you're gonna stick together. And uh yeah, so wow, so good. I don't even know where to go from there. That's such a we could just talk about that for a while. That's it's very important.
SPEAKER_01The earthly, the the commitment that we have, the passionate commitment we have to each other and to Christ transcends any earthly source of unity. Earth, earthly, worldly sources only know how to put unity together based on interest groups, race, uh, income, uh, politics, Second Amendment. You know, like that's the way the world knows. It's the only way the world knows how to put the one out of the many. You know, the e pleribus unum that that's the only way they know how to bring it. And I would say, no, no, no. There's a there's a an earthly, a passionate commitment to each other that transcends all of those earthly sources, worldly sources of unity. Um, if Jesus can help us focus on Jesus and love one another, we will stick together and we'll make it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow, and I like to put it this way you know, we we have more in common with any believer than we do with anyone in the world. You know, a uh a rich, black, elderly Christian man in New York City has more in common with with a poor, white, uh, you know, young woman in rural America than he does with the person you know at his business firm or whatever. And I think that that we have to we have to understand that fundamental unity. And one of the things I've been studying recently in the doctrine of the church is what it means to be a real community. And we can very easily become a clique more than a community. We go to church, we we always talk to the same people, we always sit with the same people, we always, and so really we're just a couple little cliques, but wow, what if we could, what if we could envision a church which was a real community where our common confession that Jesus is Lord bound us together in a way and made us so close together that that all these other things really just dissolved away. And and in Christ there's no rich nor poor, Jew nor Gentile, um, you know, no black nor white. And if we could we could build true community, I think a hospitality, how vital that is, you know. What if we were an axe, I like to call it an Axe II church because the spirit comes, and what the spirit produces, you know, the primary work of the Holy Trinity is is this people who they break bread daily. And not once a quarter at a fellowship meal, you know? Sure. Every day. Now I'm not saying we have to every day go over to somebody's house, but the point is that they really are living life together. I mean, all other all their other commitments and relationships have become subservient to this kind of community. I long for that kind of community, and I'm I thank God for the progress we've made at our church, but I do, I long for that kind of community, and and and it requires vulnerability, it requires opening ourselves up and letting other people in. And so I I think one of the things we we need to remember is that yeah, crisis times are are difficult. We can't fully prepare ourselves for them, but just being a shepherd, just building a healthy church, that's really the best thing we can do, being a real community uh during a time like this.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yeah, total agreement. Total agreement there.
SPEAKER_02One more question uh for you here that was on on my mind. How does the teaching and preaching ministry of a pastor um come to bear during a time like this? I mean, one of the most practical challenges, of course, has been many who have had to move online. Um, but uh how does that how what should a pastor be thinking about in terms of his preaching and teaching? Should if he follows a schedule, should he be thinking about um you know making adjustments? What are some topics that he should be maybe thinking about addressing, some themes that help to strengthen the church? Or do you think that it's best for pastors to try to, if they're preaching a series, continue with that series, you know, try to make as much normalcy as possible. Um because I I've been thinking about my own, I've been going working through the book of Colossians, and um and I think there's there's so much that is relevant to what we're facing right now, but I've also thought of some really practical subjects, and I've been considering making some changes in my own teaching and preaching ministry going forward. What would you have to say to that subject?
SPEAKER_01I love preaching through, excuse me, I love preaching through books of the scripture. Um I really do. Um I enjoy it tremendously. Um and my um I try to I try to to do things in a way that is um useful for the people that I'm that I'm preaching to. And so there was a time where um I I was preaching through a book of the scripture and just having a time of it. I mean, just enjoying myself. And my wife said, I'm not sure anybody here is as tuned in to um the fact that you're in this series as you are, which is uh was just something that I needed to hear at that moment. Um and and so uh bless her heart, uh, she is a huge help to me. And um so I I I felt like, okay, so I need to be willing to adjust that and uh to deal with um to deal with uh what Bruce Wilkinson calls the seven laws of the learner. And one of them is people learn most when they feel the need for what they're learning. And so sometimes uh Sometimes when you when you adjust to uh to what people are feeling the need for right now, um it it's a it's a valuable it there is a place for that. I I don't have um I'm not like a huge like oh let's do felt needs all the time preacher at all. Um but I do think that if you can if you can connect to what people are already thinking about and show them how the Bible is relevant to that, um, it is tremendously helpful for them because they it it tends to make them hungry for more of the scripture if they can see that, if they can see its relevance. Obviously, we know the scripture is already relevant, but um if you can help show it based on uh I think it was Henry Ward Beecher said, prepare your Bible, prepare your sermons with a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other. Um and because there's some things that people are already talking about, and if you can address those, that's great. Um But in in at the same time, I I think that we have to have the the challenge is John Stott's uh idea of between two worlds is is really relevant here, that we have a foot in one world and we have a foot in the other world, and we we bring the upper world to our people who are living very much, by necessity, living very much in the in the the here and now. And so we have to bring a sense of transcendence and we have to bring something that is uh connects to uh the the kingdom that is coming. And so I I don't know how I don't know how to sort that out for individual churches. There's it's so it's so varied, and the education level and the the uh the set of felt needs between uh one set of people in a safe kind of suburban environment and those that are in urban environments in the current context where you've got riots, that's a different thing. That's a vastly, two vastly different audiences. And so I think prayer and humility before the Lord and a seeking of him and his word, and then being the lead rejoicer in the word of God. When the pastor gets up to preach, whatever the Lord has laid on your heart, just exult in it and and rejoice in it before your people and let them see it and make a tingle run down your spine. Um if if they see that um it it matters. That that's gonna matter deeply as you as you preach and as you you proclaim and teach uh the word of God. So um I think that's uh that's that's the only thing I would say in that in a regard.
SPEAKER_02That's great. I think well put. And actually, uh one of the questions I started asking myself is am I being intentional enough about taking whatever it is I'm talking about and making sure people see how this ought to shape the lens or the narrative through which they're they're making sense of or processing this crisis. You know, one of the things about social media is that right, it it's like that they people get so many different narratives. And and these these these tweets or these Facebook posts that they read all the time, they don't come out of a vacuum. You know, they come out of a certain person's way of processing this reality. And sometimes people jump off the wagon and they get these crazy ideas, and it's so frustrating, and you think, how can this be? But I think what what lies behind it is just a desire for them to know how to make sense of these events. And so if they can put it into political narrative or whatever. So, like just to give an example of this, you know, I as I'm working through Colossians, I got to this section right in the in the beginning, the Christ hymn about how Christ is the the uh the first creation was was through him, and so the second creation, the new creation, is through him. And I was able to to go to Romans 8 and how creation has been groaning until now and talk about how this coronavirus is just one groan in a in a long line of groans. And aren't we ready for a new world, you know? And and and I I wish, as I look back some of my sermons from the beginning, I wish I would have been that intentional. But but suddenly this this this brings a whole new sense of uh of uh confidence to people that that Jesus is in control of these circumstances, he reigns over it, and uh and and witnessing to his supremacy and his sovereignty, his providence during these times, the hope that we have, the hope of the new creation, and some of these themes. So it so maybe it isn't necessarily that we need to change what we're preaching on, but we just have to be more aware and intentional about applying it to the present circumstances in a way that it doesn't just deal with the the circumstance itself, but the bigger picture narrative through which people are processing reality. Because as preachers, you know, lots of people are gonna forget the sermon we preach. I don't even remember what I preached a year ago today, you know, you know, this week uh on a Sunday. I don't remember. Most people are gonna forget my sermons, even if I have three-point alliteration. I know that's hard to bring, but even if I alliterate them, they're gonna forget. But they but what they won't, what what they won't forget it or what what won't be lost on them is the way that message and all these messages have shaped their way of processing reality. So I I think uh one of the reasons I wanted to raise this is just because it's important to us to bring to mind the importance of being intentional about shaping people's uh you know worldview.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's so crucial. So, and I I to completely agree that if you're going to preach through books of scripture, which I fully support and love, you've got to find a way to make you can't just create an outline that describes the text and then say, let's just all let the Holy Spirit apply this to our hearts and then say your closing prayer. You gotta bring it into the real world. And so bringing that, bringing that home, like you were talking about. Um so right now I'm preaching a thematic series in our church called The Kingdom, um, and trying to help people understand because ultimately the kingdom narrative, the story that God is telling, we we we don't always understand that we are inside, we we we get our mind inside stories, like you're saying. They are the glasses that we're wearing. So we tell ourselves stories about the political realities of our world, we tell ourselves stories about the coronavirus realities of our world, whether they, you know, one of the sets of stories involves we're all going to die, and the other set involves Bill Gates is coming for us with the 5G towers. And it's the those are both narratives. They are lenses that you wear when you read the news. And what if our people were wearing a set of glasses? What if they were they were telling themselves a story about the kingdom and what it happens and the kingdom that has come and is is now filtering out through the world like yeast through the flower, and now is and is going to continue until it fills the whole world. What if they were telling themselves that story when they read the news? Um that that's the goal to reshape those narratives. So absolutely true.
SPEAKER_02Excellent. Sometime we need to have a chat about the kingdom. Uh, I've had recent interest in that. I just uh talked about the kingdom in in Matthew's gospel, and uh I listened to a series of lectures by Gordon Fee, and he begins this whole series by asking, what is the one thing that you must understand to understand Jesus? That if you don't understand this thing, then you will you will you will not understand Jesus. And he had a a group of maybe, I don't know what he said, it was 100 people or something, and they they all wrote down their answer, and one person wrote justification by faith. It's like, wow, okay, you've definitely been reading Paul. Jesus does not talk about justification by faith very often. And and the right answer he he states, and and I would have to agree, is the kingdom. Wow, he comes and he preaches the gospel of the kingdom, and he uh he tells us to pray every day, right? Thy kingdom come. And the thing that we're supposed to seek first is the kingdom of God. So it may seem like we're off track from talking about navigating a crisis time, but it really it's not, because we must see ourselves as kingdom people, and the king is reigning even in the midst of these circumstances, and that reign centers in the church, and we cannot surrender that fact. And it it brings great confidence and it brings great uh it really makes sense of all that we do as the people of God. So, uh, how about this? In in closing, tell us how has the kingdom and your understanding of the kingdom shaped the way that you you thought about this coronavirus and the way you've responded to it?
SPEAKER_01Oh man. Uh okay. This is ten minutes, Daryl.
SPEAKER_02You can't write more than ten minutes on this, okay?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I have struggled to keep my sermons under 50 minutes on this kingdom topic because it's it's uh just blowing my mind. And uh so this is so important. Navigating, navigating uh crisis and being flexible and being uh resilient during crisis is a function of the stories we are telling ourselves. And seeing this uh telling, realizing that this coronavirus moment is only a stop in the story. It is a chapter or a paragraph in the story of the unfolding kingdom of God is so, so crucial and important. So I look at, I look at the world and I see um, oh, look at all this stuff, and what about China? Did China do this on purpose? And you know, and and so I look at it and say, the nations rage and the people imagine a vain thing, but God has installed his king and he reigns and he rules. And who who cares uh whether China did it on purpose or not? God's kingdom cannot be shaken. And then you look at Bill Gates and uh and and is that is that a thing? And what and I look at it and say, um, well, the truth is that we have received a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and it will grow until it fills the whole earth. And and um I I rejoice in that, and it will smash the kingdom of mixed iron and clay, and the the stone that smashes it will grow to fill the whole earth, and I rejoice in that. And it gives me great peace and confidence. It puts to you say, Well, what's what's my what's my job to to uh to pray for these days? What how do I pray? Well, like you said a moment ago, your kingdom come and your will be done. How do I manage my financial life and and uh all those things? Well, seek first his kingdom and his righteousness. How do I know what my what what is good news in these days? And the answer is the gospel of the kingdom that Christ has rule has come to rule and reign, and that he calls all of us to forsake the kingdom of the world and its way of being in the world, which really comes down to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. If you look at uh 1 John, it says, that's all that is in the world. So the whole world kingdom is built on those three things. That's the motivation for everything they do. And I have been given a different motivation, whether I eat or drink, do all to the glory of God. And so I can see what my my goal then, my mission is to go out and to proclaim the gospel, to proclaim the good news that a Christ, a Messiah, a king reigns. And so I don't know if you've ever heard um uh the uh Tom Wright, N. T. Wright, uh talk about, give his illustration about this, but I'll close with this. Um, so in in the years before Christ came, uh before Jesus was born, um, there was a huge controversy. Julius Caesar was assassinated, and two main rivals rose up in his place. And one was Mark Anthony and the other was Octavian. And these two guys, you know, there's everybody in Rome started taking sides, and both sides hated the other, and they both started gathering influential leaders and building armies, and it was clear that something was going to happen. And finally, it did happen. There was a series of battles culminating in the Battle of Actium. Um, and in the Battle of Actium, uh, Octavian decisively defeated the armies of Mark Anthony, and he slinks off to Egypt. Um, and and Octavian sends messengers back to Rome that say this. They say, a new king, a battle has been fought, and a new rightful king has arisen, and he is coming back to this capital city to establish his kingdom, and you better decide whose side you're on. You live in the middle between the rightful ascension of the king and his coming back to establish the kingdom in its final form. And he said that was the message of those who came back to Rome. And so then 40 years later, Jesus comes, and then he, in his ministry, he starts preaching that the kingdom of God has come, that a battle is being fought, and a rightful king has arisen. He has showed up. And then he leaves and he leaves to us. He says, You are my ambassadors. I want you to go into the world and proclaim that a king, a rightful king, has arisen. And he's coming back. He's won the battle, but he's coming back to establish his kingdom in its final form. And you live in the between time, and you better decide where your loyalties lie. And that to me becomes then the beautiful mission of our church. In times of crisis, we have a gospel of a kingdom that cannot be shaken, that we are to proclaim and call people to decide whose side they are on. And uh, so that that gives me great joy. It's so much, so much bigger than anything the Republicans and the Democrats could offer me. Um, it's so much more lasting and so much more satisfying and joy-giving. So uh so rather than going out and proclaiming the gospel of the Republicans of the Democrats, I plan to go out and in this time of crisis uh proclaim the gospel of the kingdom with every ounce and fiber of my being and uh and build it as best I can.
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