Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Philip Brown on Wisdom and Holiness in the NT
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In this episode, Johnathan Arnold and Philip Brown continue to discuss the relationship between wisdom and holiness.
But your intelligence level is less important than your posture toward truth. You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_01All right, let's talk a little bit about uh wisdom and holiness in the New Testament and uh especially about Jesus. The New Testament opens with the Gospels presenting the life of Christ. And uh what do you see in uh in terms of holiness and wisdom in the life of Jesus, and especially Jesus as uh the the real fulfillment uh and embodiment of all that the Old Testament taught about these these important concepts?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great question. Let me reiterate that I understand holiness to have three dimensions. That is, it's uh status, it is a character, and it has to do with one's nature or being. And uh Christ uh possessed uh immediate status holiness, he the holy thing that was conceived in him, uh he possessed nature or being holiness due to his divine nature, and uh he would have not had character holiness until he began to form a character. Uh and Luke says that he grew in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. When Luke says that I take that to be a direct allusion to Proverbs chapter three, where Solomon says that if you tie Chesed around your neck and that you bind it mercy and truth, or you know, chesed and emmet about your neck, then what you will find is good understanding and favor in the sight of God and man. And so essentially we see Christ growing up doing precisely what Proverbs prescribes for the young man so that he may grow in wisdom. Obviously, we see by the age of twelve that he was sufficiently steeped in the Old Testament to be asking kinds of questions that amazed doctors of the law in the temple. And Jesus' familiarity with Deuteronomy and Isaiah and the Psalms in particular suggest that he had, by the time he was ready for his adult ministry, so immersed himself in the scriptures, if not memorized them. Well, I don't we don't know exactly uh the status of that, but uh so immersed himself that his life was shaped by not just uh conformity to the behavioral directions found in the Old Testament, but by the very shape of the thoughts. So that uh you know the word the the book of Proverbs in Hebrew, the word proverb or mashal uh can be used in reference to parables, to short statements, extended statements that have wisdom as their focus, and Jesus teaching ministry takes the mashal form, constantly using uh short statements, short stories, longer parables. And uh one of the things that I think that many people misperceive about Jesus is they think that because he was a master teacher, he must have been easy to understand. And uh in fact, it's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and Jesus manifests that same approach to Mashal literature in his parables, using them in ways that are uh that were obscure to his original hearers, even to his dedicated followers, where they were regularly saying, Could you please explain to us what you meant by that? And in some cases, saying things that uh required his resurrection to be understood. So just uh uh that real quick overview of uh Jesus' life and ministry, uh I would argue also that even as Jesus developed in his understanding of God's word and lived that out, developing the character of holiness, that uh that character um involved maturation as well. So that uh we we don't expect Jesus as a four or five-year-old child to be uttering statements that would be only uttered by an ad a mature adult. It's one of the reasons why the early church rejected apocryphal literature that had Jesus performing miracles as a child. Instead, we see Jesus particip participating in the whole range of human development without any sin, either personal sin or uh depravity due to uh connection to Adam. So that's the background, and against that I would say that uh Jesus himself is the uh the the incarnate Christ is the model for human holiness because the same spirit that empowered Jesus for his life and ministry dwells within us. We the key difference, of course, is that we do have both we do begin with the corruption of sin, and even after salvation and the filling with the spirit that addresses the deprivation that we all have, uh we nonetheless have ongoing filthiness of flesh and spirit that needs to be cleansed, perfecting holiness and the fear of the Lord, and that holiness is described in Colossians chapter three as being renewed after the image of him that created us, and since Christ created us, we're being renewed then in the image of Christ as we are maturing and growing in holiness.
SPEAKER_01Right. The same spirit of holiness that dwells in Christ also dwells in us, and something that I've found interesting is thinking more about the Holy Spirit as the spirit of wisdom also, and so the relationship between holiness and wisdom we see in the Spirit Himself. But let's just go back to something you said about the parables because I think this is so important. Uh, I hear often uh ordinary pastors, teachers say something like uh Jesus used these earthy stories, these parables, so that the common man could understand him, and we need to bring the cookies down to the bottom shelf, so to speak. But Jesus says, and you alluded to it in Matthew 13, this is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, and this fulfills the prophecy. So we see the disciples after Jesus gives a parable coming to him and wrestling with it. And this reminds me of something that I once heard about the prop uh proverbs, and I'd like your thoughts on. Uh, someone once described a proverb as an art form that instills wisdom as you wrestle with it. So it's not that you just, if you can memorize all these proverbs, uh you just you check off the list and now you have wisdom, but rather the comparisons that are made, you know, go to the ant, thou sluggard, and consider her ways. And as you consider her ways, wisdom is instilled as you wrestle with that and think about your own life and try to put that into practice. And we see a very similar thing with the parables and with really many of Jesus' teachings. So, what would your thoughts be on that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I think you've rightly stated that Jesus' parables were really not intended to uh address the common man uh in language that was easy to be understood. Admittedly, he uses plenty of ordinary life illustrations and examples, and he is connecting with his first century audience. Uh and the parables were also light to those who were seeking the truth. So uh there are two it's a two-edged sword. It cuts against unbelief on the one hand, and it opens the way for belief on the other hand, but in general they require engagement and uh you know, even things like the the Beatitudes, which I would say are cast in uh uh a wisdom format because they affirm the blessedness of the person who has a given characteristic, and this uh is just coming directly out of the Psalms and even Proverbs that you don't you don't suck the marrow out of the Beatitudes dry in one sentence. But their very nature as wisdom sayings uh brings uh a multi-level significance, and I and I'm not actually using that word in a technical sense there. I would I would just say that that uh yes, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. That means something, but there's probably a lot more to it than just being able to say, well, if you've been saved, you'll see God, and end of story. Um I I want to balance, I I don't want people hearing me say that oh Jesus didn't have any care concern for uh clear communication with the average person. He did, but your intelligence level is less important than your posture toward truth.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, well put because Jesus, we see him with the children, we see him with um some of the poorest people who would have had almost no education, and they are understanding enough of Jesus' message that they're experiencing uh his grace, his mercy, the transformation that he brings, they're entering into the kingdom. Um, and so entering into the kingdom in a childlike way is a wise posture to enter. It doesn't mean that you're simple or unintelligent or uh simple-minded, but it does mean you have this right heart posture. And so I think that's really the vital, the vital point to understand.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I agree.
SPEAKER_01Well, what one of the things that you mentioned uh is this Sermon on the Mount, and that is in Matthew. Matthew's gospel uh focuses so much on Jesus' teaching ministry. We have the five discourses in Matthew, and uh Matthew's gospel uh as well as Luke's really emphasize this theme of Christ as the wisdom of God. I think it's worth talking about that for a minute. Uh Ben Witherington, I believe, has a book uh completely along these lines, but I found it interesting how Jesus says, uh, I believe it's in chapter later, middle of the book somewhere, he says that a greater than Solomon is here. And so he identifies himself as the greater Solomon. So often when we think about wisdom, we think Solomon was the wisest man to ever live. But really, Jesus was the wisest man to ever live. He's the greater than Solomon. And when you read Matthew and you read the Gospels in light of this, um, even from the very beginning, Jesus is born and the wise men they tr they travel from afar to give him gifts to bow at his feet. And then later Jesus talks about how the queen of Sheba came from the ends of the earth to bring gifts to Solomon, the king, and bow at his feet. And so the wise men of the earth are recognizing that this king that is born is the greater king, the greater Solomon. And then throughout the book, they he grows in wisdom and they acknowledge his wisdom, and their uh his his uh followers are astounded by his wisdom. The disciples uh are just alarmed by it and they call him the teacher. So, my question for you is in light of how much the gospels emphasize Jesus uh as a wise teacher, why do you think it is that we hear so little about that theme? It's something that until recently I almost never have heard in preaching or teaching. And uh, how do you think that that that view affects our our overall view of Christ?
SPEAKER_02Well, so let me see if I'm gonna try to say something here that I haven't particularly said before, but hopefully I can be clear, and that is that as I said in our previous interview, that wisdom is the skill of seeing life from God's perspective, the ability to penetrate beyond the surface and see life from God's perspective, and maintain the proper focus, uh, and then live out that perspective in the choices one makes. So there's a sense in which within the hierarchy of these terms, I I don't see wisdom and holiness as two uh terms that sit side by side, and now we're going to explore wisdom, and then we're going to explore holiness. No, I would see holiness as the largest possible circle. And wisdom reflects the way a holy God thinks. And so to think like God is to think in a holy manner. Uh now, as is often the case, I uh you know, Proverbs is clear that there are uh not everyone is at the same level of mental capacity, God hasn't given everybody the same set of gifts. And it's not as though the person who's never given much thought to the nature of wisdom or to acquiring wisdom doesn't have wisdom because to whatever degree a person has embedded the thoughts of Christ, the teaching of Christ, into their own mental structure and then lives those thoughts and teaching out, they are wise. And so you can have a very uneducated person who's immersed themselves in scripture and who is thus both wise and holy, though they don't have uh exposure that education provides. So I guess coming back specifically to your question, why is it that the wisdom of Christ hasn't been much emphasized as we look at the Gospels? And my my answer would be that while um those terms do show up, you know, I'm looking at it right here, and uh in in Matthew through John uh in the Greek New Testament, the you know, the standard word for wisdom uh shows up, let's see here. It only shows up ten times. So, in general, people who uh are reading their Bibles, it actually shows up more in the Gospel of Luke than it does in the Gospel of Matthew. It's only three times in the Gospel of Matthew. Now there's there's a variety of terms in Greek that can be used for wisdom. So the concept, I don't want to confuse terms and concepts, the concept of wisdom has greater presence in the gospels than does the word wisdom, but nonetheless, it still doesn't um stand out as the focus of Jesus teaching ministry. It's almost as though, you know, let's say a student comes to a God's Bible school and they're told that, well, our purpose is to produce faithful servants who love God, love others, and love learning. And then they uh sit back after four years of the college and say, Well, you know, in that psychology class, how many times did they talk about loving God? I I don't remember hearing the language of loving God, or how many times did they actually talk about loving others? Or they uh they rarely ever talked about loving learning. Well, uh okay, but that's missing the way in which we go about inculcating these principles. And in the same way, I would I I would want to push back against the idea that unless we're saying the word wisdom or saying associated terms, that we're not actually dealing with the concept. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So um just just uh a counterpoint to consider, um, I think it was France or maybe it was Shriner who says something like, Um, you know, Matthew doesn't just use, and this is true of all the gospels, in diet uh excuse me, doesn't use direct presentation. It's not only the facts that matter, but he often uses indirect presentation or the form, not just the facts, but the form. So I guess my my where I was situating the question was in this context of that sometimes in the gospels we do get so focused on uh the details that we miss how the gospel writers are pre are presenting Jesus. And so all of this works together to present Christ to us as the greater Solomon, even if it isn't explicitly said again and again that Christ is the wisdom of God, as we see in the 1 Corinthians. So my question, I suppose, is then do you think that if we would be more aware of the way that Christ is presented as the Holy One of God and as the greater Solomon, the embodiment of God's wisdom, that that would help us to have a better, more well-rounded view uh of Jesus as embodying all these principles simultaneously, and then helping us to better interpret those passages like in 1 Corinthians, where Christ is explicitly stated to be the wisdom of God.
SPEAKER_02So let me affirm what I hear you quoting from Schreiner or France, and say that yes, that's correct that the gospels do lots of indirect presentation. That's the very nature of narrative itself. And uh, you know, to be honest, uh Jonathan, what I think is our people in general are so ill-versed in the Old Testament that much of what Matthew does is lost on them because Matthew's writing to Jews who are uh intimately familiar with the Old Testament's language, figures of speech, modes of presentation. And so is Jesus the greater Solomon? Yes. Is he the David that is coming? Yes, he is. Is he uh a prophet like but greater than Elisha and Elijah? Yes, he is. In fact, this is I think Jesus' point in Luke 24. The whole Old Testament was pointing toward him in multiple ways and in multiple dimensions, and he and all of that coalesces in his person. If we want to pull a particular strand and talk about wisdom, yes, Christ is the greater Solomon. Um I just read an article by uh Kevin Van Hooser entitled Lost in Interpretation: Scripture, Truth, and Hermeneutics. He wrote this back in 2005 and published it in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. And what I particularly appreciated about what Van Hooser does is he says we need to not just look at what scripture says, we must also look at what scripture is doing, what is it trying to do with its language, and what try what uh uh changes is it attempting to effect in the reader. So um am I in favor of looking at what the gospels as a whole are doing with Jesus? Yes, I am, but I worry. That overattention to that kind of that level of meta analysis could supplant the simple learning of Jesus' words, memorizing them, living them. In other words, I'm it's a it's a both and, but I want to prioritize getting the content over having really nuanced ways of handling form.
SPEAKER_01Right, excellent. Yeah, and I think they they not only it's a both and, but they're interrelated because as I and part of this is, and I don't want to get too off track here, part of this is the fun of podcasting. I get to ask questions that I'm interested in and want to learn more about, but seeing the meta-narrative in Matthew has just it's been so exciting, it's opened my eyes, and details that never made sense before suddenly have new and rich and meaningful um uh meaning that I that I've just never seen. So I think the two are interrelated, but I don't want to go too far down that rabbit trail, and that's my my fault. But let's just talk a little bit uh in the rest of the New Testament then. Um how do we see especially the cross interpreted as the ultimate man manifestation of God's holy wisdom? And what does that mean?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I would need you to clarify what you mean by the cross as the ultimate manifestation of God's holy wisdom, since I would never have said that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, sorry. So let's just how about let's do it this way? Uh just tell us what Paul is getting at when he talks about the cross as the wisdom of God.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so the cross, well, maybe we need to back up and just do a little comment about hermeneutics. I I know that uh maybe some of your younger listeners may not remember this, but anybody who's 35 or older should remember Bill Clinton saying, Well, it all depends on what the word is means. And and there was lots of snorting and scoffing in the press about his statement. But Bill actually uh knew something about the English language, and he's right, is can mean many different things. And uh it's not simply an equal sign, it can have the meaning of result, it can mean uh is an example of, uh, it can have a source uh meaning. There's there's lots of meaning. So when we say the cross is the wisdom of God, I take is there to mean reflects or is an is an example of. So this was in Paul's mind the essential problem for God was how do you be just, maintain your moral government, maintain your holiness, your righteous standard, and justify sinners. This seems like an intractable problem. And the cross is the solution that cuts the Gordian knot of this problem, because on it it brings together the incarnation with God's plan for a uh election and predestination and uh redemption and the glorification of his people, and it's kind of the hinge of history. Um so when we if we if we were to say the cross is the uh greatest demonstration of divine wisdom, we would want to say by cross we mean not simply the crucifixion itself, but the nature of the person who is being crucified, the hundred percent God, hundred percent man, who is the second Adam, and as the second Adam has connection to every single human being that has ever lived as their covenantal head, and whose activity on the cross thus may provide atonement for every single member of humanity. That's on the front side, and on the back side, the cross is always connected to the resurrection, and thus we have the resurrected and ascended Christ. So we need that whole arc, and I'm okay if by cross we mean that whole arc, but if we narrow the focus of what we mean by cross to crucifixion and death, uh atonement and redemption, it's that's uh inadequate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so like in 1 Corinthians, the verse that I'm referring to uh in verse 18 and 4, the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it's the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart. So I guess my thinking along those lines is that that here, in a way that we see nowhere else, um, the New Testament is explicitly pointing to the cross as the supreme act by which God confounds all human wisdom, so-called, and demonstrates uh you know his his great wisdom in Christ through the crucifixion. We see this man on a cross and he's bleeding and he's bruised and he's weak. It's the weakest thing in the world, a man who has died by crucifixion. It's a cursed death, it's a death that everyone regards as worse than dirt. And everyone looking on thinks this is a failure. This is this is the opposite of success, this is the opposite of victory. This is what you don't want for your king. This means the kingdom has fallen. And then through this incredible act, God brings salvation to the world, redemption to the cosmos. I mean, everything hinges on this weakest of all events, and it shows how God's wisdom so transcends the wisdom of the world. And I think the point for us to take away, not only first of all, to worship, but then just just uh the thing that I had in mind is how this cross just so humbles us in the in the in the presence of God and makes us depend on the wisdom he has revealed, because if we tried to go about it from human wisdom, we would never have chosen the way of the cross. So that was just kind of the idea that I have. What would your thoughts be along those lines?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I well, I stand by what I just said that uh the that that apex is only appreciated properly with a right understanding of the incarnation and the resurrection essentially. Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_01Yes, absolutely. I as far as practical ramifications. Yeah, yes, absolutely. Amen. Practical ramifications, though, how does that shape how does the cross shape our understanding of God's wisdom? And then how we approach that as we try to live as Christ-like people, people of the cross, people who are called to take up their cross daily.
SPEAKER_02Well, let me take uh take your questions one at a time. How does that shape our understanding of God's wisdom? Um so an apex serves as the ultimate point on an entire structure. And so rather than seeing the cross as the lens through which everything else is to be viewed, I see the cross as demonstrating that the totality of God's wisdom from before creation all the way into the eschaton. And the cross makes sense out of a federal head of the human race. It makes sense out of Adam's sin impacting the entire world, the cosmos. Um it makes sense out of God's plan to that was hidden to bring all things together in one person so that Christ by his cross redeems for himself a bride who will become his body and in in whom the triune God will dwell. So uh do I do I magnify the wisdom of God in choosing crucifixion as the means by which his strength and wisdom is manifested? Yes, I do. But does the cross become um somehow central in my thinking to understanding wisdom? Well, it hasn't at this point in my understanding, and uh maybe it will in the future, but that's not where I'm at right now. Um secondly, how do I live out that wisdom in a cross-shaped way? Well, I I really think that taking up our cross is secondary and subordinate to following Jesus. So that uh in contrast to the the Roman Catholic piety that makes the the crucifix the center of uh meditation and growth in holiness, I see placed before me uh the person of Christ in all of his dimensions who invites me to follow him. Yes, I'm taking up my cross daily, but the reason I have to take up my cross daily is because the flesh still lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, and I find that I have to put to death the deeds of the body, Romans 8 13, that I have to do what Peter says in 1 Peter chapter 2, verse 11, that we must abstain from fleshly lust at war against the soul. We're in a battle, and the cross is an instrument of victory over sin and death. This is Peter's point in first Peter chapter 4, that those who have suffered because of following Christ, they've laid aside sin, right? And so the cross then becomes a means by which we put to death what is not light, but that's only one side. The other side is the spirit, is the means by which we live the life of Christ in us. Um so and both of those have as their focus following Jesus. So that's where I'm at in my thinking at this moment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very helpful. And I hear you um just stressing the importance of placing the cross in the grand picture of what God is doing. And uh just one more comment along these lines before we and possible question before we go on to the rest of the New Testament, um, and and why the cross has so shaped my current understanding of wisdom, which very well may need to be expanded. Um but just to give like a particular example, um, so when it comes to, especially we're talking about the relationship between holiness and wisdom, how can we be holy in the midst of persecution? Well, if I'm suffering for the gospel as a Christian, all Christians will suffer. Um, and if I'm suffering for the gospel, how do I be holy in that suffering? Well, that takes wisdom, and human wisdom might say, I need to stand up and be loud and be forceful and fight. And maybe I do need to do that sometimes. But where the cross shapes my wisdom, and I would say I would have like a cruciform wisdom in those moments, and this is just to give a particular example. I would think of like 1 Peter, where it says that, you know, Jesus, when he was reviled, did not revile in turn, but he suffered and did not threaten, and he trusted God. So I'm thinking, you know, human wisdom in that moment might tell me to be reactionary and defensive, but the cruciform wisdom shows me that in God's manifestation of his wisdom on the cross, it is often through humility, meekness, submission, subjection, which is the focus of this Peter, uh this chapter in Peter, um, that that is actually God's way and God's wisdom. Now, I'm not I'm not a pacifist, I'm not, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that that it does reshape and reorder the way that we expect the kingdom to come in our lives and his will be done in our lives. So is that is that clarify a little bit of what I was saying, and what would your thoughts be on that?
SPEAKER_02So, you know, I immediately go to Hebrews chapter 12, where we're talking to persecuted Christians who have had their goods plundered and fellow believers imprisoned. And he says, Uh, set your eyes on Jesus, right, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despised the same, and is set down at the right hand of the Father. So what I see there is not an extended meditation on the cross itself as a way to strengthen faith, encourage perseverance, and uh guide a response to that, because he says, You took the spoiling of your goods with pleasure, that's the King James language, or you you you joyfully responded, why? Because you have an enduring possession in heaven. So, yes, there is time where we are led before our to the slaughter as a lamb. Uh, on the other hand, Jesus says, when you see persecution coming, flee to the next city. Um, he says, in that day it will the spirit will give you words to speak. So, boy, I I really struggle to make Christ's passion on the cross the paradigmatic uh guide for everything when it comes to wisdom in relation to suffering for sin. There's you know, Paul, Paul speaks up and says, Hey, is this right for you to be doing this to me? You're gonna be whipping me a Roman citizen, and other times he doesn't. So I end up saying, I gotta be led by the Spirit, and that's why being led by the Spirit is so crucial.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. And it takes wisdom, sure. Absolutely. All right, well, let's look at some other passages here in the uh in the New Testament. Uh, what would you see as, and and of course you've emphasized the importance of not isolating particular passages and viewing them as wisdom literature, but what would you uh point to as some very important passages in the New Testament um on understanding the nature of wisdom, especially in light of Christ's coming?
SPEAKER_02Well, so wisdom in the New Testament, the first place my mind goes is the book of James. So you have uh James chapter three in particular, though, James 1.5, uh wisdom for trials. There's a specific application there, which is reflective of a larger principle that we're to be diligent pursuers of wisdom. Uh you know, 1 Corinthians chapter 1, Christ has made into us wisdom and righteousness, justification, sanctification. Um we're to pray, like Paul says to the Colossians 1, 9 through 11, that we'd be filled with the knowledge of his will and all spiritual uh understanding, with all spiritual wisdom and understanding. Uh in Ephesians 1 17, Paul's prayer there is that uh the eyes of their understanding being enlightened. Um so you know, I want you to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. Uh so wow.
SPEAKER_01No, that's that's a that's a great, and that just raises some text because I had some questions about James, but also about Colossians, and we had interacted on this a little bit. Um, but but in Colossians we see Paul praying for them to be filled with the wisdom of God. And uh and I'm thinking about chapter three, how we often hear this call to put off and put on. Um, but how does, you know, how does this call to holiness in Colossians and elsewhere in the New Testament relate to this, this also this call to be filled with wisdom? And I think the point you had made to me in the past is that when you look at Colossians and how it exalts the work of Christ and what God has done in Christ, Christian wisdom is about then living out in our lives a life that is consistent with what God has done in Christ, or taking that knowledge that about what God has done in Christ and now shaping our lives accordingly. So could you talk a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, you said it well. Christian wisdom is about uh shaping our lives according to Christ. So, you know, I I think if if we can go back to uh the kind of this cruciform shape of wisdom, I I would call it a Christoform shape of wisdom. Sure.
SPEAKER_01It's good. Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_02That anything that deviates from Christ-likeness in any dimension is contrary to divine wisdom. And everything that brings us into line with who Christ is is wise. So Colossians 4 5, conduct yourself with wisdom toward the outsiders. Okay, so how did Christ interact with unbelievers? You know, and then we've got we can turn right to the gospels to see the whole range of his interaction, both evangelistically, in which he was reaching out to draw them in, and then in terms of condemnation, where when when the sinner has rejected truth and is offended by them being called out, Jesus says to Yeah, you know, leave them alone, they're blind guides of the blind. On the other hand, in Colossians 3, uh one of the things that wisdom does is it says that the body of Christ is uh is uh uh a plurality in which there is uniformity, uh sorry, unity without uniformity, and that he has in his wisdom given a plurality of gifts to the body, and that means that other people are going to be able to speak into my life teaching and admonishing me, and I should not think that um I'm beyond that. And that is the wisdom of Christ. So, you know, for the first part of the verse, let the word of Christ dwell richly within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another. So clearly, the word of Christ is the source from which the wisdom proceeds, and its manifestation takes the forms of teaching and admonishing of one another, psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. And you know, we we live in a uh in a society where radical individualism tends to make people get their back up if somebody's coming along to admonish them. That's contrary to the wisdom of Christ.
SPEAKER_01So good, yeah. That's so good. You're talking about the communal aspect of wisdom. We've talked about the importance of reading and studying Proverbs, and uh, and and that's so important. But we also need to read Proverbs in community, and then we need to take what we've learned and share it with one another and uh and work out our wisdom and our holiness in community. So I think of something that's you know commonly quoted by Wesley there is no holiness without social holiness. And you've said, you know, wisdom is encompassed in holiness. There's also no wisdom without social wisdom. We need the, you know, the iron to sharpen iron, and when iron grinds, it grinds, and sometimes it's not comfortable. Um, but uh, if we're serious about growing in wisdom, we're willing to be corrected. And I want to have a more teachable spirit. That's such an important uh point that you make there. Anything else in the New Testament that you would want to point to that illustrates the communal nature of wisdom, uh, or even even in Proverbs or in other places in the Bible that just emphasize the importance of this because this is such an important point that I think you raise.
SPEAKER_02Well, let me before I answer that, let me just ask you: did in our previous interview, did I delve into Hebrew? Hebrews chapter 12, verses 5 through 10, and how the quotation from Proverbs 3, 11, and 12 wisdom literature, gets appropriated by the Hebrew writer for a call to holiness.
SPEAKER_01You did mention it, but I I certainly do not think it would be too much to repeat it. I think it'd be great to repeat it.
SPEAKER_02So this text where the Hebrew writer says, You have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you, plural, as to sons, and then he quotes Proverbs 3 11 and 12, in which it says, you know, my son despise not the chastening of the Lord, neither be weary when thou art rebuked of him, for whom the Lord loves, he chastens and and discourages every son whom he receives. So this text about discipline by Yahweh because of his love, the Hebrew writer reads as directly related to holiness. And he says, Divine discipline, then has as its purpose that you share in the character of God. Well uh does not the wisdom literature of the old testament deal with the problem of suffering? And suffering is the workshop of divine discipline in our life to shape us, to make us like him. Um and so I would say that the New Testament which calls us to uh in First Peter 1 be holy in all manner of our behavior, uh is also saying, well one of the ways in which you're going to grow in holiness is by submitting to the discipline of God, and God disciplines you not simply with personal private conviction, but also with the rod of man. He uses spiritual leaders, he uses other members in the body, and so the call I I would say every call to holiness in the New Testament in one way or another touches on this social dimension. There's no escaping of it. Um and we don't, again, we don't have to have the words, the specific terms, but if we look at Ephesians 5 18, we love this passage on being filled with the Spirit. We preach on that. Many people don't get around to going down and preaching on verse 21, which is submitting to one another in the fear of Christ. And that submission finds its most natural enactment when someone is uh making a demand on us, right? The demand of correction or the demand of uh instruction or admonition. And this is Christ-likeness. Christ who submitted himself to the Father calls us to submit ourselves to one another.
SPEAKER_01Right. That's so rich. And just to go back to Hebrews 12 for for a moment, that passage uh has become one of my favorite places from which to preach on the subject of holiness, because so many people have heard verse 14. We're to strive for peace with everyone and holiness without which no man will see the Lord. But if you back up just one, two verses, lift your drooping hands, strengthen your weak needs, make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. And that's talking about this discipline that the Lord is working in our lives. And so I wonder sometimes if there are people who are being disciplined by the Lord, and because they don't have a paradigm for it, they assume that it means that they've blown it and it's over. But in fact, this is actually how holiness and Christ-likeness are being produced in their lives. And it has been for me encouraging, and I think it's supposed to be encouraging, we're not to regard this lightly, we're to take it seriously, but it's also a word of encouragement that when the Lord does chasten us, when he reveals to us attitudes or things that we've done that that he's displeased with, we're not supposed to just just uh you know sit there and be bummed out about it, but we're supposed to, once we're humbled, once we repent, we lift the drooping hands, we strengthen the weak needs, and we get up and go do what God wants us to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I think those two verses that you just quote are actually at the heart of communal growth and holiness. That it these are plurals, you plural, strengthen, and so that means that I have a part in the pursuit of of others' pursuit of holiness. And when they are weak, when they are uh being uh turned out of the way, um part of my job is to make straight paths for those feet and help them to be healed. Obviously, it's not it's not an it's not either me or the other guy, it's both of us together. But it's what it says is that the holiness marathon, which starts with chapter 12, verse one and runs all the way through verse 14, this journey, it is a pursuit of holiness from start to finish, and it's done in community of the saints as we all look to Jesus, recognize the role of discipline in our res uh and resisting against sin, striving against sin, but we do it together, and uh wow, you know, that that's so different than the individualistic I gotta go to the altar, gotta get it all straightened out, then I gotta maintain my devotions, and it's all about me and my personal walk with the Holy Spirit, and you know, accountability and transparency and having other people speak into my life on a consistent basis is one of the reasons why there's so much up and down within our particular holiness tradition. When we link arms with one another, uh you know, as wisdom says, uh a threefold cord is hardly broken.
SPEAKER_01That's powerful and it's it's life-changing. And to cite something that David Fry says often, um, we hear the verse that no temptation has overcome you, and there's a way of escape. Well, the way of escape is often the church, it's other believers. And there's some sins that really I'm not sure that we even are capable of escaping apart from the body, because that's God's God's plan for us. And in some ways, by trying to conquer it on our own, we're really pushing back one of God's means of grace. So it's it's encouraging to know I don't have to do this all alone. Um, and uh, and I really appreciate that emphasis.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, uh a hearty amen to what uh Dr. Fry is saying there. And then we need to hear a rebuke to the current use of social media that causes people to be unwilling to be transparent because if they're transparent, they're gonna be fried or skewered or screamed at. Uh, you know, God have mercy on the people who are not being kind and tenderhearted, loving, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven us. This is the very opposite of holiness.
SPEAKER_01Wow. There's a lot to think about there. Yeah, social media has uh exposed a lot of ad attitudes, and really what got me thinking about the relationship between wisdom and holiness was first and foremost social media. And as I was listening to people that I looked to as leaders, men who preach and teach uh holiness of heart and life, and I was looking at the way that they interact, and this isn't to throw any stones, I have my areas, my blind spots, but I was troubled, and the word that kept coming back to me is you know, on one hand, this isn't wise, they're not using wisdom, but then on the other hand, this is inconsistent with holiness. And I realized that our holiness has to be a wise holiness, and our wisdom has to be a holy wisdom, and they're really so interrelated. And uh that's that's really the reason why I'm so passionate about this topic, and I need that wisdom because I need to live out uh holiness in my social media feed and and in every other area of life. Um and sometimes the wisest thing to do is just get off social media, uh, but there's certainly a lot to unpack there. And one of the questions, actually, the final question that I was going to ask you was about the current contemporary challenges the church faces where wisdom is needed to live and testify as God's holy people. So, any final comments on that?
SPEAKER_02Well, Proverbs makes it abundantly clear, and James summarizes it in his little line Let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath. And I would say, here it is, the very thing that James says we're not to be, we often are, we're quick to speak, quick to wrath, and slow to hear. Um and so I I would say what scripture calls us to in this particular time is the wisdom that slows down the whole conversation's pace must slow down so that we're hearing one another, we're understanding one another, we exp we fully uh explore the alternative position before we offer critique. And most people lacked the grace of patience, and because they're impatient, they are unwise in their words. Wisdom is never impatient. Now, that's not to say that wisdom may not speak up and say some hard words. We see Jesus himself saying very hard words, you know, but uh that that wisdom that that was the that was the exception in the life of Christ, not the rule. It was um particularly in cases where he recognized there was a hardened, willful refusal to accept truth. And we get, you know, on the Sermon on the Mount, he says, Don't cast your pearls before swine and don't give what is holy to the dogs. That's wisdom, and it takes wisdom to identify swine, it takes wisdom to identify dogs, and in doing so, some people think that, well, that's not Christ-like. No, in fact, that is that is the wisdom of Christ to know when your audience does not deserve the truth, does not deserve additional comment, and keep silent, just move on. So, a call to being slow to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath, quick to hear, I think encapsulates a lot of the wisdom of Christ for our current moment.
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