Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
The Pastor as Theologian
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In this episode, Johnathan Arnold and David Fry discuss the lost vision of the pastor as theologian.
Quotes from Fry:
- Theology has been for generations separated in some ways—some formal ways, even—from the life of the local church. We need to bring those two together again.
- As we study God, we study all things in right relationship to him.
- As pastors, our task is to bridge the horizon of biblical truth with where our culture is. Pastors stand between Scripture and culture and we have to try to bridge that gap by informing culture with the truths of God and relating the truths of God to culture so that we are shaping culture as well.
- Being a theologian as a pastor is not an option—that's not even the question—the question is whether or not we're going to be a good theologian or a bad one. And that depends on our own willingness to know God, to study his Word, and to be increasingly better communicators of the truth about God and the world in relationship to God.
- Many pastors are heavily involved in many aspects of the church's business, administration, marketing, and graphic design—all of these various hats that pastors often put on that actually take us out of intentional, prolonged study of God's word, and even affect our prayer lives. They take our mind away from dwelling upon God and how we can make God known to our people.
- I have had people tell me that I am the CEO of the church. No. That's not how I view myself. Certainly, I have administrative responsibilities. But we need to change the way we think about the ekklesia. The church is not a business corporation. We are the flock of God. The pastor's role as a guide is about being a shepherd after God's heart.
- We are to give theological guidance that will help a person bridge the truth of Scripture with the facts of culture and life. A pastor-theologian is one who brings theology to bear on the daily life of the local church. It's making theology meaningful to the people not only when they are sitting in their pews but also when they go to work on Monday morning.
- Pastors have to get back to seeing ourselves first as guides in Christian faith. That means doctrine—explicating what Christian doctrine is, what it means, and connecting it to real life. That takes time, study, and focus—not being drawn into every other thing that we could be doing.
Quotes from Arnold:
- Some people think that to be a theologian is to be up in an ivory tower, separated from the practical stuff of real-life ministry.
- People are faced with many complicated issues—this has been amplified by social media—and they need someone to shepherd them through the questions they are wrestling with. This is why theology is right at the heart of what it means to be a pastor.
- Pastors are called to provide a certain kind of comfort—a substantive comfort. We are to help the flock become grounded in the deeper truths of God through their suffering.
- Pastors are constantly addressing questions, whether from the pulpit or around the dinner table, and the issue is not whether or not we are going to give a theological answer, it's whether or not our theological answer is going to be substantive and meaningful or if it's going to be shallow.
- I know so many pastors who eat up guys like John Maxwell for breakfast. They want to get a Leadership and Administration degree. But when you talk to them about theology, they say, "Well, theology is important, but...."
- Pastors who are neglecting theological study are not equipped to navigate the questions of culture, so they begin to fall back on programs and other means to see "results" instead of growing the church organically and theologically. This leads to a lot of the anemia that we are seeing.
And I looked at her with all seriousness, and I said, Mom, it's okay. The tomb is empty. The tomb is empty.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_02I'm back with Dr. David Fry to discuss a topic that is very important to both of us, something we care about very much, and that is the pastor's role as a theologian or what it means to be a pastor theologian. And this is near and dear to my heart because uh even when I came to faith, I started very quickly reading uh theological books, picked up the uh Westminster Shorter Catechism and the knowledge of God and what he what he has done in Christ and is doing in Christ. Um, that was what transformed and changed the way I was living, the way I was thinking about who I was, my identity. And so, really from day one, um, I never viewed theology as separate from life. And so when God called me into ministry, I've always kind of thought about my role as bringing the truth, the knowledge of God and the study of God to bear on the life of the church, and have found that sometimes uh there's kind of an animus against theology and a lot of misconceptions about what it means to be a theologian. And uh so we're here to talk about how we can reclaim this really classical vision of the pastor as theologian and how it can help the people of God. Because as pastors, we have a heart for the church, we love the church, and uh, we want to take the knowledge of who God is and what he's done in Christ and bring it to bear on the church. Dr. Fry, thanks for talking about this important subject.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you for inviting me to the conversation.
SPEAKER_02So I thought I'd just start here with a quote from R. S. Taylor, because this resonated with me quite a bit. And the Taylor says that the Bible says pastors are supposed to be apt or able to teach. How can they teach if they do not study? There is a silly notion abroad which affects to despise theology. The writer heard an ordained minister say, Thank God I'm not a theologian. Then he should have surrendered his credentials. What is a theologian? He is a serious and systematic student of God and his redemption. It is the duty of every preacher to be a theologian. What do you think Taylor's touching on here? Have you experienced this? What are what are your reflections on the point that he's trying to drive home here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think he's first of all recognizing that many uh preachers and pastors do not understand themselves as theologians. And I would say that in my experience uh in interacting with my fellow uh brothers in in ministry, that uh that is that still seems to be pretty common and is certainly something that needs to be addressed. And I don't know when uh Taylor wrote that, but uh obviously this has been an issue for uh more than more than a generation. Right.
SPEAKER_02So do you think some of that is maybe just a misunderstanding of what theology is and what it means to be a theologian? Because sometimes I think you know, we hear about the Ivory Tower. So they think to be a theologian is to be up in the ivory tower dealing with, you know, these kind of obscure, uninteresting, esoteric questions that really aren't down in the in the trenches, the really practical life of the church. And that's what pastoring is all about, that practical stuff. Um, you know, how do you define theology and what it means to be a theologian? And how could just a better understanding of that help us to start reshaping our understanding of what it means to be a pastor theologian?
SPEAKER_01Right. So theology is often something that uh people shy away from, especially claiming to be a theologian or labeling what they do as a pastor as theology, because uh theology has been now for generations, uh been really uh separated in in some ways, some formal ways, even, from the church. And I think in our discussion here, based on some of our off-air discussion, I think we're gonna get into at some point uh how to uh really bring those two together again. But uh so theology, uh just in its broadest sense, of course, is the study of God. And as we study God, we uh we study all things in relationship, in right relationship to Him. And for pastors, especially, our task is to uh do, as Kevin Van Hooser uh describes it, to really bridge the horizon of biblical truth with where our culture is. So we are pastors stand between uh scripture and culture, and we have to try to bring uh bridge that gap by informing culture with the truths of God and relating the truths of God to culture so that we are shaping culture as well. So that's a great task to study God and and uh particularly culture as it ought to be rightly related to him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because our people are immersed in really complicated, challenging issues, and I think they've only been amplified by social media. People are faced with a lot of very complicated issues, and to know how to live in a way that reflects the knowledge of God and what he's done in Christ, that that's gonna require somebody to come alongside, guide them, shepherd them, walk them through that, understand how their faith comes to bear on these questions that they're wrestling with. And so we see that really this is this is at the heart of what it means to be a shepherd, a pastor. This is why theology is important for a pastor, because we have this wonderful opportunity and this really high calling uh of feeding the sheep, coming alongside God's people, comforting, comforting them with the truth of God, guiding them. So, how do you think this uh metaphor of pastor as a shepherd can help us to take theology, which is sometimes viewed as something separate from from real life, and help us to bridge that gap to see that really what it means to shepherd is is to be theological and to do theology.
SPEAKER_01Right. So the pastor um metaphor, which pastor is a Latin word for shepherd, is uh the most predominant you predominantly used metaphor in the New Testament to refer to uh what we do as pastors. And uh I like to start with with 1 Peter 5, 2, and I use this phrase a lot in reference to what I do as a pastor. And uh Peter says, Shepherd the flock of God. And I must understand that my role as a pastor, uh two critical points here. One is that I am called to minister to to believers, to others who are following Christ, that I have a certain responsibility to uh to the disciples of Christ in my local congregation. But secondly, that these disciples belong to the flock of God. They are the flock of God, they're not my flock. Uh, this is God's flock, and I have a particular uh responsibility and role, the role of shepherd of the flock of God. So, so pastor theologian, we may need to break down even both of those words. Uh, we've talked a little bit about what theology is, uh, what what is a pastor, and you made reference to the shepherd metaphor. And uh I think it would be profitable for us to actually just break that down a bit and uh talk about how shepherd is compared to what we do as pastors, what we actually do. And uh there are a lot of directions we can go there, and um I know Ezekiel 34 gives us uh a list there of responsibilities of a shepherd. And uh uh I think that's probably uh a great place to for us as pastors, and pastors who are wondering what's it mean for me to think of myself as a theologian or how how do I practice, how do I theologize as a pastor? Um that's probably where we ought to start, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's helpful because sometimes uh when we talk about the pastor as theologian, we're we're like, you know, thinking, maybe I need to go, maybe I should study a little more. You know, pastors might say, you know, yeah, I probably ought to spend more time in sermon prep, or yeah, I ought to probably be reading more, but I'm just caught up in the real work of pastoring and shepherding the flock, you know, and so I don't know that I have time for this. But I think that the key that we're trying to point out is that actually the reason we think about these things as so separate is because for so long, theologizing has meant something outside the life of the community, but actually what it means to shepherd is is by its very nature theological. So what if we just start here with the idea of the shepherd's role of comforting God's people? Um, you know, how does what does it mean to comfort God's people and how is that by its very nature necessarily a theological task?
SPEAKER_01Well, so first of all, it's a theological task because God Himself is our comforter, right? And so we are as pastors, we are to speak truthfully first about God to the flock of God. Uh everything about theology begins with God Himself. Uh we must, as as pastors especially, we must be extra sure that our posture, our posture in in prayer, our posture in preaching, our posture in in providing this comfort or visitation and all of the other responsibilities that that uh characterize this role of shepherd, that we're doing it with our posture towards God. That we are learning more about God ourselves in order to convey that. And comfort is just one of those, right? Offering the comfort of God, not just our own, our own presence or our own uh comfort, but uh presenting God to people who who are in a place where uh they may be discouraged or sick or lonely. Uh well, guess what? Uh God reveals himself as the one who uh is his eyes are looking for those those exact sort of people. And we are uh we are uh his missionaries uh to provide uh that comfort, the comfort of a shepherd uh to our people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I think that's really helpful because when I was originally Todd counseled, you know, how how do I comfort people who maybe who people who are in the hospital, people who are who are suffering, you know, I was told things like the most important thing is that you're just there, your presence, and you know, do practical things to help the family. You know, if they need a snack or something, they need their drink filled up. Hey, I certainly there's something to that. But what it means to actually be a pastor is to provide a certain kind of comfort, a solid comfort, a substantive comfort. And that means helping people in these times to look to who God is and what he's done in Christ, to find the, to find uh not only just kind of this emotional relief, but but really to find themselves grounded in these deeper truths. I think we sing like his oath, his covenant, his blood, support me in the whelming flood. So if as a pastor, somebody in my congregation is going through the the whelming flood, I ought to be pointing them to the oath, the covenant, and the blood, I ought to be pointing them who God is, what he's done in Jesus. Right. And so I think about how in the past, like I love the Heidelberg Catechism and I'd studied the descent last year for Passion Week, and thinking about how what pastoral implications of this. So, you know, if I have somebody who's uh who's on their deathbed and they're scared to die, what am I gonna do? Like what, you know, well, am I just gonna just gonna be with them? Am I just gonna, well, just trust the Lord or you know, it's gonna be okay. That that's just it's kind of it's kind of cheap comfort, you know? But if I can say, you do you know that Jesus actually experienced death to its fullness? Do you remember how on Sunday mornings we we you know quote the apostles' creed and say he descended to the dead? Well, that means that Jesus actually died as a human, experienced human death, and then was victorious over it. So you don't have to be afraid to go where Christ has already been and conquered and has risen. And because of the resurrection, you'll rise too, and you can have this great. So, you know, maybe it's not, maybe it's not the descent, but but finding ways to connect the truth of God to bring solid comfort and that that actually helps them to understand that everything we teach and preach, all the instruction we give, it is really relevant for everyday life as a believer.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. So let me give you a deeply personal example. So my mother just passed away on October uh 11th, so 39 days ago, and my mom passed away. But in that month leading up to her passing, uh she had you know various levels of coherency here and there. And uh for uh for a couple of weeks she had this look in her eye. You'd go into the room, and she had this just this wide-eyed uh expression on her face. And uh there were you you could see two things happening in her in her life life. One is there were moments of fear. That wide-eyed look was a look of fear, and then she would go to uh move from fear more to confusion, like what's happening. And it was in one of those moments that I was sitting there with her and she and she just fastened her eyes on me, you know, they again literally wide-eyed, fastened her eyes on me and pulled me near to her. I was really close to her face, and she said to me very deliberately, looking me square in the face, and said, Am I gonna be okay? Am I gonna be okay? And I knew that she was not talking about, am I gonna be healed? I knew uh that she was talking about is my soul okay? Will I be saved? And she was having in those moments fear that she needed comfort. And as she looked at my face, I suddenly realized this very moment is a moment in which I have the awesome responsibility that God has given this to me. I'm the one that she's looking at as her son, but also as her pastor for reassurance, for comfort. And I looked at her with all seriousness and I said, Mom, it's okay. The tomb is empty. The tomb is empty. And I repeated that, I think I repeated that three or four times. The tomb is empty, the tomb is empty. And I repeated it, and the first time I said that, the first time I spoke those words to her, I said it consciously trying to assert as much confidence as I could, and then I said it again. And each time I said it, I felt faith within my own heart being at peace, being at rest, and knowing that I I'm not just speaking these words, I am speaking God's truth. And I saw in her expression uh a her her soul, her whole body just relaxed. And she affirmed, she goes, yes, she goes, yes. And that truth in that moment was a that's that is the most prof profound historical statement. The tomb is empty, but it is profoundly theological, and in that moment it is profoundly comforting. And I saw the comfort of the Holy Spirit come across come upon her physically when that truth sunk in. And as pastors, we we have to know the the simplicity of the gospel with the richness of those statements of faith that we make uh to offer uh comfort, guidance, uh soul food for uh for the people of God as as shepherds, that's our task.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's such a beautiful example. And to think of Paul's exposition in in 1 Corinthians 15 of the resurrection. And so so often, and I think Paul's really the master of this, uh, and 1 Corinthians is a great example because much of that letter is really just answering the kind of questions that that still come up in one form or another. You know, as pastors, we're constantly uh we're constantly responding to or addressing questions, whether it's from the pulpit or whether it's around a dinner table. You know, these questions come up, and the quest the only question it's not whether or not we're going to give a theological answer, it's whether or not our theological answer is going to be substantive and meaningful and it's going to ground people in the knowledge of who God is and who Jesus is, or if it's going to be uh uh just kind of empty and shallow comfort. And the more that we can go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Right. So let me interject there and say and make this point, because I think this is so important for pastors to hear, and and you and I have discussed this again off air, but it's so important for pastors to recognize that that being a theologian as a pastor is not an option. And that's not even the question. The question is whether or not we're going to be a good theologian or a bad one. And that is dependent upon our own willingness to know God, to study his word, and to be uh increasingly better communicators of the truth about God and the truth about the world in relationship to God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that that last uh statement there brings me to the next part. So a shepherd is not only a comforter, but a shepherd is a guide. We lead the sheep. Uh we lead the sheep sometimes through the valley of the shadow of death. So how does how does shepherds, being a shepherd as a guide for God's people, especially in our current context, uh necessitate a real attention to theology and to doctrinal truth?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that yeah, that's a that's a big question because I think it is going it's actually applied differently across traditions. As I as I hear your question, as I think about that. So I think of an example of a pastor, a friend actually here in the community. And uh this pastor was making reference to uh their eldership board who is making decisions on about their renovation of their church. And this pastor had really distanced uh themselves from that process, which I was really surprised because I we also have a renovation program, and I'm fairly involved, at least I you know, I consult. Uh, but thankfully I have people who are doing that, and I'm certainly not the construction manager, thank God. Uh but many pastors do that they they're heavily involved in in many of those aspects of the church, the business, the administration, uh, the marketing, the graphic design, uh, all of these various hats that pastors often put on that actually take us out of uh uh intentional, even prolonged study of God's word. And even, in fact, if we're honest with ourselves, often affect our prayer lives if we're not careful. Uh they take us, they take our mind away from really dwelling upon God and how we can make God known to our people and then to other things. So when we talk about the role of a shepherd as a guide, which is again clearly part of what it means to be a shepherd, what it means to be a pastor theologian, uh what it doesn't mean is it does not mean that we are to be the uh sort of uh well, let's put it this way. I've had uh people tell me, uh lay persons tell me, they said, Pastor, you're the CEO of the church. Well, no, no, that's not how I see myself. Right. Uh I'm not the CEO of the church. Uh certainly I have administrative responsibilities, but I think we have to change the way we think about the ecclesia. We're the ecclesia is not a a uh a business, a a commercial corporation. Um we are you know very much not for profit, but we we are the flock of God, and so our role is is different. So when we talk about guide, we're not talking about guidance as a CEO would guide an organization, but we're talking about a shepherd after God's heart. And again, that's Ezekiel 34. Uh, whatever those shepherds in Israel were doing, they were not doing what God intended them to do. And so he said, I'm gonna remove you, and I myself am going to shepherd my people and show you what I expect of shepherds. And then, of course, uh Paul and the apostles pick up on that and give their instruction uh as well as a qualification. So uh yeah, to guide guide God's God's people, um this guide is uh first of all, it's theological. We have to give theological guidance. We are to again give theological guidance that will help a person bridge the the truth of scripture with the facts of culture and life. And and I think we put it this way the pastor's the pastor theologian is one who brings theology to bear on the life of uh the daily life, I should say, of the local church. In other words, it's making theology meaningful. It's making our knowledge and relationship with God meaningful to the people, not only when they're sitting in our pews, but also then when they go to work on Monday morning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think this point you make about uh you mentioned the idea of being the CEO of the church. It's so obvious how that's been imported into the church from out of American culture. And so I know so many pastors who eat up guys like John Maxwell for breakfast. Um, they they want to get a leadership and administration degree. But when you talk to them about theology, it's like, yeah, well, theology is important, but well, there it seems like we've redefined the pastoral role around this idea of the pastor as kind of this manager. And so, you know, Van Hooser says that pastors, together with the churches they serve, are too often held captive by pictures of leadership, managers, therapists, drawn from contemporary culture rather than scripture. And uh, and then there's another uh, so Van Hooser writes this book, you know, that we've talked about on pastor theologians. There's another one by Wilson and Highstand. And then he goes as far as to say that you may know that pastors these days are going through something of an identity crisis. By and large, they don't know who they are or what they're supposed to be doing. And I think you're you're touching on something really important here that that may be right close to the heart of why we are where we're at, even in many ways in the church, a lot of symptoms of pastors who aren't really guiding the flock with the truth about God and what he's done in Christ, and and relating everything in life and culture to that, shaping it by that, by the knowledge of God and who he is. And so pastors who are neglecting theology, who are neck neglecting theological study are not equipped to navigate these questions. And so they begin to fall back on programs, on you know, any other means to see results and build the church and grow the church rather than doing that organically and theologically. And that seems to lead to a lot of the anemia that we that we're seeing.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. And pastors, we we have to get back to seeing ourselves first as guides in Christian faith. That means that means doctrine, right? Uh you mentioned Heidelberg uh catechism. Uh, we need to get back to uh really being people of of the word, but explicating to our people what Christian doctrine is, what it means, and connecting that with real life. And that takes time. Uh, that takes study, it takes um focus uh to do that and not being drawn into every uh every other thing that we could be doing. Uh, you know, the the popular kind of uh you know ongoing joke is of the parishioner who who calls up the pastor, you know, just randomly through the week asking you know the pastor to do this or that for them uh because he's the only you know, the pastor's the only one they could think of that didn't have a job. Well we we have a job. It's it's called and our guy our job is given to us, uh our job description is given to us in the New Testament and or throughout scripture, Old and New Testament. And uh and that job is to is to be uh guiding our people first and how to think truthfully about God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and uh you mentioned doctrine, you mentioned the the primacy of theology and uh and and how that that is defined for us in the New Testament, our role is defined. And so I wasn't necessarily going to do this, but really quickly, just a couple a couple things to be thinking about from the pastoral epistles, because I don't want someone to walk away and think, you know, well, hey, this is this is sounds all sounds good, um, but but not really understand that this is actually not only the classical Christian vision of the pastor, which we really ought to be thinking about that. Um, but this is really actually, I think, quite clear in scripture. If we just uh allow scripture to answer the question, what does a pastor do? I think we we'd end up here. So I think it's like to Paul says to Timothy in 1 Timothy, you're to remain at Ephesus to charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine. So define it as a theological task. Um, the qualifications for elders in chapter three, you must be able to teach. Chapter four, trained in the words of the faith and the good doctrine that you followed. Verse 11, teach these things. Verse 13, devote yourselves to teaching, reading scripture. Verse 15, immerse yourself in these things that all may see your progress. Verse 16, keep a close watch on yourself and the teaching. And we just go on and on and on. So, how are you gonna do that? How are you gonna immerse yourself in in in and keep a close watch on and devote yourself to the ministry of the word? If if you are not, there isn't clear expectations, um, both both on your end, but also on the church's end, to understand that, hey, this is what pastors do. They they dig into the word, they study, you know, they're they they're a theologian on behalf of the community to help guide and feed us and help us to navigate this really complicated world in which we're living.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. So so preachers, uh and pastors in particular, I think first of all, have to really allow their preaching ministry to not take a back seat. Because when so a pastor theologizes uh in in certain key uh parts of their their ministry. So number one, prayer. Our theologizing begins when we personally speak and listen to God. And then that that trans uh transfers to our our preaching and then in our administration of the sacraments. So those are the the primary means in which we corporately, so prayer not just private, but then that moves over to corporate prayer as well, whether it's you know in a church service or if it is in in someone's home or at the hospital, wherever we may be, we're we're leading people in corporate prayer. And that's a vital part of what we do as pastors, but that's also profoundly theological. And and it's it's in those prayers, it's in those sermons that we preach, it's in our administration of the sacraments, that people are being exposed to who God is and how God uh and how God wants to relate to them now in their life and all of those things that they're facing in their life day in and day out. And in this pastors, we have to bridge that gap. And and we can do so in in those critical moments. But if things, pastoral, you know, quote, pastoral duties take us away from those three, then we're really getting the cart before the horse. And we have to be really intentional. So uh recently I had someone um come to me with a great idea, really good ministry idea. And and when they were finished, I said, you know what, I think it's a great idea. Let's pray that God will raise someone up to do that. And they kind of looked at me like, well, if you think it's a good idea, why don't you do it? And so and I responded. I'm not sure they used those exact words, but that was pretty much their response. And so I responded and said, uh, well, that actually would take me away from what my primary uh role as a pastor is. And and as as great of an idea, as as as beneficial as that may be even for for many people in our congregation, um, I I can't be the one to lead that or to head that up. And uh and I and then I also said, and also anyone else on our pastoral staff is not going to be able to be the one to to direct that because it would take them away from what God has called them to do primarily.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's so helpful because if we're not ground, if we do have this identity crisis, if we're not grounded in that identity as a pastor theologian, someone who's called to keep a close watch on their teaching and immerse themselves in these things, then we're we're gonna be tossed to and fro with every opportunity that comes up in the church and uh and really miss out on what God intends for us to be doing and try to try to make up for the lack that comes from an anemic pulpit ministry in other ways. And and I I think the priority of preaching is a great place to start because uh we really do at least recognize preaching is central to the pastoral role. A lot of times we call a pastor a preacher. And so I think maybe we we need part of the way to resolve this, actually, this this challenge we see is to have a better understanding of preaching. Sometimes preaching is pitted against teaching. And what what the bleed over of this idea that I'm not much of a theologian is, well, I get up into the pulpit and just preach. I don't, I'm not much of a teacher, I'm just a preacher. But Paul says you're to preach the word with complete teaching and patience. You know, ministers are characterized as those who labor in preaching and teaching. And I love what what Martin Lloyd Jones says. Martin Lloyd Jones says, preaching is theology on fire. Preaching is theology on fire. What are you what are you saying when you preach if you're not much of a teacher or a theologian? What do you what are you getting up there and saying? Isn't aren't we there and instructing from God's word, teaching people about who God is and what he's done in Christ? And if we don't do that well, um, there's gonna have all kinds of consequences for the life of the church.
SPEAKER_01Right right. And I think what pastors it's so easy to do this, but pastors, I think we often make two mistakes. One is we are we do not broaden our theological um understanding. And so we we only preach what um what we have grasped sometime in our past. And so we're not uh weakly, I'm saying we generally, uh not pushing ourselves to the task of of digging in more deeply, even in areas in which we have not explored before. And so we often end up, uh especially pastors, uh, end up preaching kind of the same thing over and over in different words. I I think that's one. The second is that often preachers act according to where they receive affirmation. And uh many pastors only receive affirmation, or and I mean deep affirmation. I don't mean, you know, thank you, Pastor, for the sermon this morning. Um, you know, we we hear those, you know, those things, uh, thankfully. I'm I'm glad for those, and I don't want to discount those. But the the things that come to mind when people appreciate or express their appreciation for the pastor very often is not related to their preaching. And there may be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe um maybe it is a reflection on what the pastor has been preaching, uh, but but more often I think it is uh that uh people have different expectations of a pastor, and rather than allowing God's word to inform those expectations, they let their feelings and their immediate needs uh dictate those expectations. And then the pastor ends up doing what they feel like the person wants them to do, not what God wants them to do. And that is to provide you know actual theological guidance or comfort or or conviction or whatever else a pastor or shepherd is supposed to be doing. And uh and then sometimes we feel we feel guilty if we uh you know a pastor may feel guilty for spending 10 to 15 hours a week on a sermon uh because they feel like there are there are a lot of other things pressing in on them, and so they simply don't persevere in the study. Uh I think that's really crucial. And in fact, I think it was um uh one of these authors, uh you mentioned his name. Who was the name? The guy who uh co-edited uh Wilson or High Stan. High Stanley makes the point, actually in a different book than what you mentioned, uh, but he makes the point that uh we should not the pastor should not call uh the place where he studies the office. You should call it the study. And his point is you know, people psychologically they think of you know going to the office different than going to the study. And that's just a little subtle way, perhaps, of of reshaping our mind to think more of what we do as as theological rather than something else.
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