Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Prevenient Grace, Part 1: William Burt Pope and Wesleyan-Calvinist Differences
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This is the first episode in a series on William Burt Pope's doctrine of prevenient grace.
There's no grace that does not have as its end life itself, or we might even say salvation.
SPEAKER_00It all is directed toward salvation. You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_02Back here with Dr. David Fry to talk about an important subject in Wesleyan soteriology, a study of salvation, and that is the subject of prevenient grace, the grace that goes before. Dr. Fry, thanks so much for joining me again. It's great to be here again. Well, you have spent a lot of time on this doctrine, did your dissertation on it. And uh why don't you just open up uh by by talking a little bit about your journey um uh on this subject, where you studied uh your dissertation, the scope of it, and uh things like that.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So I began in about 2003 or four, thinking about what I would want to do in my doctoral studies. And I initially was going toward uh the doctor doctrine of holiness and sanctifying grace, and uh started working on a proposal and then uh actually just worked backwards from there, really, until I made my way all the way back to pervenient grace, the Wesleyan doctrine of provenient grace, and realized that there really needed to be a lot of work done uh on that before I could ever really accomplish what I wanted to do with sanctifying grace. So uh that that put me at least on that topic, that theme. And uh and then I I realized that uh really a lot of a lot of work remained to be done among the 19th century Methodist uh theologians, and uh the one that we hope to get to in this podcast, uh William Burt Pope, is certainly one of those. But just not a lot of work uh had been done, uh analysis and um you know, just uh really, really uh an effort of retrieving uh this uh thought and theology from the 19th century was really uh a great time to do that. And so I decided to go ahead and just combine uh those two interests, uh doctrine of provenient grace, with a sort of retrieval of 19th century, uh mostly American Methodist uh uh theology, and to bring that to bear on current issues. So the current issue that I was that interested me most then, as I turned my attention to provenient grace, was how that affects a world in which we uh engage with with people of different cultures and religions and beliefs and and so forth. And what does that look like as a Christian? How can the doctrine of provenient grace uh inform my thinking and uh and practice of Christian mission within a very diverse and pluralistic society? And I came to realize that actually there's a lot of applicability there, and it really changed my whole attitude toward people uh of different cultures, uh different backgrounds, uh, when I began to recognize and and believe, really believe my own heart, that God's grace has already worked in this person's life. Now here I am as a Christian to present the gospel to them with the confidence that God has already revealed something of his truth to them. And so that that put me on in a different relationship with people that I encounter. And uh so that's a a a brief uh journey uh from uh uh my interest in uh grace, particularly within the life of a believer, then moving back to what about grace in the life of the unbeliever? And what's that have to do now with my interaction with people in the world?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, fascinating uh emphasis there. You mentioned the 19th century uh Methodist theologians. We have Pope, uh Watson, Rouston, Summers, who were the ones that you engaged with? What uh you know, what did you find uh most helpful? And then why does Pope what stands out about Pope, a William Burt Pope, who we're we're especially thinking about today?
SPEAKER_01Sure. So uh Roger Olson uh recently, and then uh back in 1909, there was another uh Methodist uh theologian who actually uh referring to referred to Pope and his doctrine of provenient grace uh specifically as uh being his most lasting contribution to Methodist theology. So uh that was by Herbert Workman in 1909, uh, who understood Pope's contribution specifically on this doctrine of provenient grace as really being uh not only the most lasting from him, but perhaps even from the 19th century uh completely. And I and I would have to say I have I have in front of me, because the Pope's um volumes are not uh indexed well. So I have uh I have before me a handwritten several pages of handwritten index. And when I look under provenient grace and universal grace and you know free will and several of the topics that fall under this doctrine of provenient grace, uh it's across all three volumes. And so it's this is a doctrine of a concept that saturates his entire thinking about God and thinking about the world. And uh so there we we can have a lot of discussion. It it creates a a lot of material here uh to foster uh thinking and discussion. And I think any discussion of William Burt Pope uh really probably is going to begin or should begin with his doctrine of pervenient grace.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so why don't you just give us a little bit of information about Pope himself and his work? You know, you're referring to his compendium of Christian theology in three volumes. That is on Logos. If somebody wants to look at it, I think every Methodist should have that on their bookshelf or at least a digital version of it. That's right. Um and he's famous, most famous probably for that. He has a higher catechism that really is is uh based off of the compendium was written later. Um but but who is William Burt Pope? He's really been forgotten, neglected. Um, but uh you mentioned uh about how important his doctrine of provenient grace is and maybe his greatest contribution, but there's been some some incredible things said about him. Um I I was reading a review of his compendium when it was first published. Uh Stevenson cites this in a book where someone says that he was the first who, with a professional method, expressed Wesleyan theology in scholastic lines. Uh that's a that's that really important. He's like the first great systematic theologian of Wesley. Now Richard Watts, and you know, some would say he's kind of systematic, but Pope really gives us the really formal system of theology. And then more modern um commentators like Fred Sanders really loves Pope, and a lot of people would know would know Fred Sanders from his work on the Trinity. Um, he he refers to him as the most one of the most reputable thinkers in the Arminian family, the greatest doctrinal theologian ever to take up the task of teaching Christian theology from the viewpoint of the Western Revival, the finest theological mind the Methodist movement ever produced. And most Methodist pastors, teachers, even professors that I talk to, they don't really know a lot about Pope or haven't really given a lot of attention to him. So, you know, who was he and why do you think that he's been neglected?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I first of all, um, any Wesleyan who reads William Burt Pope loves him, and any non-Wesleyan or specifically Reformed, uh, they don't love him so well. But he he is, I think, the uh certainly the best, if not the first, uh modern systematic theol theologian, uh systematic theologian as we understand it. So he he um he replaced Richard Watson's uh two-volume systematic theology uh on the British course of study. So that's pretty big. Um Richard Watson's works had been on there for uh decades, and then Pope comes along and actually displaces that. So that speaks highly of how he was revered in uh his home country of England. Now he was born in Canada, his parents were uh missionaries in Nova Scotia, and uh he grew up there, went to school there, and then returned to Britain, where he taught at Didsbury College and in Manchester. Uh he his uh three-volume uh compendium did go through three editions. I believe it's three editions. I think I have the second edition in front of me here. Um and I I'm I could stand to be corrected there. That I don't recall if that third if that was just a third printing in 1889 or if that was a third edition, but I know there are at least two editions, I should say that. I think there's just two.
SPEAKER_02I think I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So and then you mentioned his higher catechism. And those are his uh works that are um I I think I think you mentioned uh Logas still has uh the compendium. Uh he did write some earlier works as well, uh, but those are hard to find. They may be out there on the internet somewhere, I'm not sure. Uh but he was a no now, he was never on the course of study, interestingly, in America. Uh he was never placed on that course of study. And yet he was uh very influential. And uh certainly at the time of his writing, uh American um Methodists were were writing systemic theologies as well. None of them, though, really ever reached the status of Pope uh worldwide. Um but you know the interesting thing about Pope is he is he is one of the the what I count as the five major systemic theologians in the 19th century, but there's never been a biography written of Pope, and there really needs to be. I would love to uh to read that. I don't really know a lot about his background other than when uh where he came from. I know his brother uh was a missionary to India, and he contemplated uh going to India as a missionary. And I think, honestly, I think his the fact that his parents were missionaries, his uh older brother was a missionary, I think actually influences and helps me to see a bit of what he writes because he does write about other uh people from other faiths in regard to provenient grace. So I think that's really interesting to know that he comes to theology from a missionary uh perspective. Um he he lived through uh through the remainder of the 19th century. He died in 1903. Uh so he bridges a really important uh span of time in the development, especially in of the American Methodist Church, uh with which he would have been familiar. You know, his lifespan 1822 to 1903, and there are a lot of things happening uh within that time span in America. Uh some of it has been documented in in other books. Uh, some um, and honestly, I think one of the reasons Pope and and others from the 19th century have been overlooked is because of books that have been written. Uh the author's name slip in my mind right now, but the book on transitions, uh transitions of Methodist theology from the 19th to 20th century. Uh that book is very disparaging of 19th century theology. And if you read only that, you would think that they were all a bunch of liberals who were weak on scripture and you know, weak on sin and weak on the entire sanctification. Um, were there some who were? Yes, but Pope wasn't one of them. And in fact, um many of the major theologians uh were not uh either. And and so I unfortunately people who have read uh the transitions book, let me let me get the exact title of that here. Um but the ones who have read that uh probably read it and think, well, I don't want to bother with anyone, any of those guys then. So uh that's that's rather unfortunate. And and I know that because I've talked to people who have said who have said, well, why should I what why should I read you know those guys? They were they're the ones who transitioned Methodism from you know conservative theology to liberal theology. Um and the book I'm talking about is Robert Child's Theological Transition in American Methodism, 1790 to 1935. Um a very interesting book, uh very compelling book, and yet I think has um is is really, I think, a wrong reading.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think what the only thing I would want to add about Pope, you know, is just how much of his life was spent in circuit ministry. You know, he's a circuit preacher for like 25 years and then becomes the uh the conference president, uh, Methodist Episcopal. So he's really a um, you know, he has the heart of a preacher, he has the heart uh of a pastor, and and that comes out, I think, in his theology. But uh, but that was a that was a big part of his life before he went to Didsbury, and um and uh I think certainly is something that that needs to be given attention to him as well. And yes, I I wish there was a biography written of him. I've tried to piece together the various parts of his life, but there's not even a lot. It's hard to find, dig out those sources, they're not so readily available.
SPEAKER_01It is. There are a couple of uh PhD dissertations, one at Yale and one at Drew from uh Drew University. Uh the one at Yale uh it was 1956, the one at Drew was 1990. Uh again, no biography. Uh, there are there are a lot of papers out there that you can find that um have been written on Pope's theology or some aspect of it. Uh some of them are helpful. But uh yeah, not a lot of and there's been no collection of his works, um, just those two dissertations.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we might have to do something to change that. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about his doctrine of prevenient grace and why it's so uh why it's so important. Um I'm looking here at a second edition printing um of the compendium, and uh it's the second volume, and it begins on uh see here, page 358. So if someone wanted to read that again, that's available in uh Logus Bible software. But why don't we just work through this? Um you're the expert, so maybe we can we can work through Pope's sections, not that long, but it's it's dense. There's a lot to talk about. And as you mentioned, it really uh runs through all of his theology. So there's a lot to look at outside of this section, but this is kind of the heart of his doctrine. And uh, why don't we just work through this together?
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. And let me mention, as I just look at the page that you mentioned, 358, to remind people who are reading uh Methodist theology, especially from the 19th century, uh, they did use the phrase provenient grace, but very, very often they use other phraseology. And for instance, I notice here he uses uh and throughout he uses preliminary grace, uh, preparing grace. Some sometimes they'll say things like uh the initiation of the spirit. And there are many different ways to conceptualize what what we mean by provenient grace, and they do that freely. So you can't just go through here and search for the you know the word provenient grace and and and capture everything that's being said about it. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, especially the the sometimes when he refers to the influence of the spirit, he's especially just just thinking about the provenient influence, depending on the context. So, yeah, lots, a lot of different uh terms that kind of orbit around the idea of provenient grace. So he opens up um describing this as really the Holy Spirit's work in preparing the soul. So Pope's theology, and one of the beautiful things about it is it's so thoroughly Trinitarian. And so he's he's talking about here the spirit's role in the economy of redemption. Um, sometimes we hear that little the father planned it, the son purchased it, the spirit applies it, quick, kind of helpful way. We see that in Ephesians 1. So the the Holy Spirit's role, um, we we say he's the one who brings about new birth, but really that begins in his kind of universal preparation of man to receive the full benefits of the covenant um of grace. So why is it so important? Um, and this is for for uh Wesleans, for Calvinists alike, for the Holy Spirit to prepare man to receive these benefits, to hear the preaching of the gospel. Um, why does man need to be prepared?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the this preparation of the Spirit, remember, the Spirit is the giver of life. And in actually, it's in his third volume in his discussion of regeneration that he uh begins his talk with uh the the relation of the Trinity to the work of atonement and salvation. And uh prominent in that discussion is the spirit as the giver of life, and this brings up the or connects our uh salvation back to our creation, right? So that it is uh initially uh the giver of life, the spirit that gives humanity uh animation at all. And so uh this is if if our salvation is in a sense a new creation, uh it's gonna start the same way. But you're you're alluding back to the b you know the breath of life.
SPEAKER_02Right. And that you're saying that that breath of life is the Holy Spirit. Because that I don't know that that's always always caught. And I think that if we look at like in John's gospel where Jesus breathes on his um disciples, you know, the spirit eternally spirates or proceeds from the Father and the Son and the Western God. And so now he's being breathed into man, and now again what you're saying is that's the first creation. Now in the new creation he's being breathed again.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Okay. W which I think then this is this is gonna come up later, but is important to remember when we when we go to more carefully define what do Wesleans mean by provenient grace versus what others who may even use that term but but don't mean it in a Wesleyan sense, what do they mean? And it's important for us to understand that what we mean as Wesleans by provenient grace is that's always life-giving work of God. Whatever, whatever it is that provenient grace does, it is always life-giving. And so for John Wesley, uh as well as as uh Pope, uh who by the way has been called the most Wesleyan of all of the Wesleyan Methodist uh theologians, it it's but this is important for for both of them that all grace is about giving life. There's no grace that does not have as its end life itself, or we might even say salvation. It all is directed toward salvation. Right.
SPEAKER_02So Pope goes on to say there actually at the end of this section, this this grace is not saving, though it is unto salvation, it's salvific in its direction. So, but stepping back, you know, just even a step here, why is it that man needs this grace to be brought to salvation? What you know, what it how and maybe where even do we agree with Calvinists, Wesleyan Calvinists agree on why this kind of grace and activity of of God is necessary?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So there in my dissertation, I I write about the Wesleyan or try to describe what we mean as Wesleans by pervenient grace. And and honestly, uh the there there are four points that we make when we are talk about pervenient grace. First of all, we mean that grace is necessary, that it's for some reason, and we we call this depravity, for but for some reason humanity. Needs grace. Now, there have been all throughout church history, there have been all sorts of ways, various traditions or people or theologians have uh stated what that particular need is. But whatever the need is, we need grace. So that's the first element. It's necessary. Second is that we uh we we need part of the necessity is that we need something to empower or or enable us. We're we need enablement for our salvation. So uh necessity, enablement. Third is the universality of grace. That is that God has given grace to all people. All people need it, and God has given grace to all people, and He has given enabling grace to all people. And then finally, uh we include in this concept of provenant grace that grace is resistible. Uh that this grace, given initially irresistibly, it's just given to us without us asking for it, but once it's been given, it can be resisted. So the the difference then between what we mean as Wesleans by provenient grace and what others, particularly reformed theologians, would mean by pervenient grace, is that they a reformed theologian, for instance, would also affirm that we everyone needs grace. They would affirm that we must have enabling grace in order to be saved. They would affirm that uh that grace can be resisted. So we have, you know, we know the tulip uh you know that has irresistible grace, but there but but it is they would still affirm that there are people in this world who resist grace. So it's um namely the the unelect or non-elect. And then there are and that grace is they have a doctrine of universal grace called common grace. The difference is that we put all of those elements into a single uh concept that grace does all of those at once for a person. Whereas in the Reformed tradition, those four elements, uh all four of those elements don't apply to all people at the same time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so to go back to your first point about grace, why grace is necessary. So I think uh the important thing to say there is that really Calvinists and Arminians, Wesley and Arminians, we agree not only on that it is necessary, but really on why it's necessary, because we both affirm not only some kind of depravity, but total depravity. Right. Um, you know, Arminius makes some of the strongest statements, Wesley as well, um, on how we're unable to do any good um in our fallen condition. We're we're in every part of man we're fallen. It's just that, you know, okay, well, how is somebody who's totally depraved um ever going to be saved? Why would somebody who's so corrupt and sinful and you know their thoughts are evil continually, why would they ever even, you know, respond positively to the preaching of the gospel? And so um a Calvinist would say, on the one hand, that there is this common grace that's given graciously to the whole human race, but that's not addressing this question. That is just God's gracious, he makes the rain to, you know, to fall and the just and the unjust. What answers this question in doctrine of salvation, soteriology, is this irresistible grace that comes only to those whom God has elected or predestined without any conditions to salvation before the foundation of the world. Uh, a Wesleyan would say that actually God's common grace to all is in and is itself leading them to salvation. It God doesn't give grace that's not life-giving, that's not, you know, unto salvation. So it is, it is moving them in that direction. Would that be a faithful kind of summary of what you're saying there?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes. So so provenient grace, then there are two ways to understand provenient grace, then even beyond that portion of the discussion. Uh, one is very, very broadly speaking, there is just the the concept of provenience. That is, that grace is always that which initiates life. Uh, and that in a very broad sense is what we mean by pervenient grace. And that we share with with all believers. Uh, there's not a single truck Christian tradition that has not affirmed that, because that's part of Orthodox faith. But more narrow, more narrowly then, is provenient grace with as we understand it as a systematic doctrine, that is, that it entails necessity, universality, enablement, resistibility within a single moment applied to a single person. So it's it's all one grace, not different acts of grace uh to different people. And that's that's that is a more narrow and particularly Westland understanding of what provenient grace is then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Pope um, you know, opens up here with with the necessity of it. It's salvific and goes on to talk about the spirit of grace uh being the author of every movement of man's soul towards salvation. Um, and he says his influence requires and indeeds a certain cooperation. So he's setting up this discussion now. And when he goes to start talking about provenient grace, um, in his first section here on grace provenient, he says, uh, you know, man is impotent, we can't do anything, we're powerless. And so this grace comes to us, and he says, the manifestation of divine influence, which precedes or goes before the full regenerate life, receives no special name in scripture, but it is so described uh as prevenient grace. So this uh raises a question that I've had for some time now. And and just to go back to this idea that, okay, man is totally depraved, he's he's bound in sin, you know, his affections, his understanding are all corrupted. How would he ever come to uh to Christ? It seems like something is gonna have to happen to the person. God's gonna have to do something to the person before they are going to respond. And so that's why Calvinists say, yeah, look, you know, Ephesians 2, he made us alive. And because we're regenerated, born again, we're able to have faith in Jesus. God has to transform us. And Pope uses this phrase about full regenerate life, which seems to imply that he views provenient grace as providing some kind of partial regenerate life or partial regeneration. And this is a phrase that Roger Olson uses to refer to what God does to the person as a result of his provenient grace. And um he says in Arminian theology, a partial regeneration does precede conversion, but it is not a complete regeneration. It is an awakening and enabling, but not an irresistible force. So, you know, I read that last phrase, it's an awakening and enabling, but not an irresistible force. Uh, you know, and in some ways we talked about how it there is an sense in which it's irresistible because it's given to every man, but he means in the Calvinistic sense of, you know, bringing about um full regeneration. But this phrase, partial regeneration, has hung me up a little bit. And I've I've wanted to say something more like, uh, it's regenerative, because it just seems like what that's doing is taking the biblical idea of regeneration, which sometimes I would argue is referring specifically quite clearly to that new birth in a moment, full regeneration. And it seems like it's taking that, which is the normal use of the word regeneration in scripture and kind of splitting it up. And and I'll just say this and then be done because I know I'm going on here a bit. But but uh the reason why I think this is so vital is because uh, like John Piper, probably the most most influential, uh popular level reformed pastor theologian teacher, um, he points to this idea of partial regeneration as his reason, may one of his major reasons for rejecting provenient grace. And he says, you know, again, Ephesians 2, you know, you can't split this up. Um, and and this is what he says. I don't think this can be fairly interpreted to mean there's a split. Um, and and so God just kind of does part of it and then he waits to see if we'll do the rest of it, and then he, you know, kind of finish the work if we if we do what we're supposed to do. So is that a fair representation? What do you think about the idea of partial regeneration? And is this consistent with Pope's understanding?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so first of all, I think there's so many conceptual differences between uh Pope and Piper that there's uh I Piper is not going to read Pope with the same framework. So uh it's not surprising that um he's he's not gonna that he's gonna be able to point some of these things out. Uh and and he does so, and Piper does this often, as does uh Schreiner, who who uh was formative for my dissertation, um and and I was somewhat responding to him, and and that they they'll define the terms according to their own framework and not the framework of the author, in this case Pope. So I this is why I believe Pope means. First of all, you you mentioned that perhaps re rephrasing, instead of saying it's regenerating, or it's a partial regeneration, or it's regeneration at all, saying it's regenerative. I think that change, though, would miss one one significant point of Pope, and that is that he does believe that this is a real change within the human race. That that Christ affects. In fact, he even go, he and I think it's in the third volume again, he even talks about how uh Christ's atonement, his incarnation, his death, his resurrection, it was necessary, it had to happen, but the work uh that God had already purposed to accomplish was uh was in a sense accomplished. Uh it was just yet to be unfolded in time and space. And so I I think that uh indicates to us in part that Pope has in mind that there is a real that there's something real that happens to the human race through the work of Christ. So the reality, this is something that's real. Number two, it's something that is corporate. So Christ is, in a sense, for Pope, our federal head. He he is the replacement of the first Adam, uh, he is the new Adam, and he acts on behalf of humanity. So it's humanity that is regenerated as a race. And so then that's then the third point would be this is not yet personal. And that's why it's not full, as he mentions there on the page that you mentioned. Uh what was that, page 359 and in this? That it's it is it's not full regeneration. Uh by that he means regeneration proper, as we would understand it. That is the regeneration of the of the individual.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys Podcast. Email your questions about theology and ministry practice to podcast at holyjoys.org. Our labors for a holy, happy church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
