Being a Church that Helps Others in Distress

In this episode, Johnathan Arnold and Dr. Andrew Graham discuss helping others in distress.

Quotes from Graham:

• The best way to assess whether or not someone is in distress is to look at any changes in their mood, affect, behavior habits—eating, sleeping—and how these changes affect their functioning.
• There are people who are in distress while not yet disordered or dysfunctional or diagnosable.
• One detrimental mistake is to automatically assume that a distressed person has a spiritual problem.
• We can too quickly over-spiritualize distress or we can too quickly under-spiritualize distress.
• In addictions counseling, a frequently used adage is: Your past may explain your behavior, but it doesn’t justify it.
• Do not assume you know when someone is in distress or that you know the best way out.
• There is no situation beyond God’s power to redeem and restore for His glory and our edification.
• We can’t look at somebody and say that because they’re limping in the way that I limp, or because they’re going through a situation I went through, that means God is providing for them the same way out that He provided for me. 
• We’re all called to come alongside those who are in distress.
• We need to support one another through relationship—through connection.
• How connected are you to the body of Christ? That is an important component to moving on and moving through times of distress.
• One of my passions is to help equip the church to provide soul care. There are situations where basic counseling skills can be used by laypeople—people who are not even naturally equipped in this way—to where they can impact their own church community and beyond.

Quotes from Arnold:

• Sometimes in our churches, we’ve created a culture where we feel like we need to have it all together, so it’s easy to hide our distress.
• Helping someone else can help the whole body. 
• When one part of your body is hurt, it draws energy and strength from the rest of the body until it is healed. That’s one of the reasons why I think maybe we avoid this. It can be costly and messy to get involved in somebody’s life and walk with them through the distress that they’re facing.
• If my wife is in distress, I know it. I don't have to guess, because I live my life with her. Maybe the problem is that we’re disconnected in our Western model of church—we're consumer-minded, we come to get what we want and then go. Maybe we have a little clique, two or three people that we talk to every service, but we don't really have a community. We don't know when others are going through distress or how to help them because we don't really even know them. They’re not a part of our life. What if the church looked like Acts 2—breaking bread together and living life together?
• Creating a healthy church may be one of the first steps towards being better at helping people in distress.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

And so, yeah, we can't look at somebody and say, because they're limping in the way that I lived, or because they're going through a situation that I went through, that means they, you know, God is providing for them the same way out that He provided for me.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I'm joined today by Dr. Andrew Graham to have a conversation on the subject of helping others in distress. I'm honored to call Dr. Graham a friend, and I've had the privilege to hear him speak on several occasions, and his compassion and love for others has made me want to be more like Jesus. That's the best credential that I can give, but Dr. Graham also has extensive clinical training and experience to diagnose and treat a variety of mental health and counseling concerns. He holds credentials with the Florida Department of Health as a licensed mental health counselor, the National Board for Certified Counselors as a national certified counselor, and the International Board of Christian Care as a board certified professional Christian counselor. He's an active member of the American Association of Christian Counselors, the American Counseling Association, and the Christian Association of Psychological Studies. You can learn more about his professional counseling from a Christian perspective at drandrewgraham.com. Dr. Graham, thanks for taking the time to talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yeah, I'm honored to have the opportunity to talk with you, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

We're going to jump right in and uh we're talking about helping others in distress. So if we're going to do that, we need to be able to identify when someone is in distress. And I think sometimes as uh Christians, this this maybe isn't as straightforward as we might think. Um sometimes in our churches, we've created this culture where we feel like we have to have it all together. So it's easy to um hide our distress, to try to, you know, put on a facade, pretend that we that we do have all things together. So how can we identify in our conversations with our brothers and sisters uh if that person may really be struggling? And uh maybe even what can we do in our churches to create a culture where this is this is more evident?

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Well, let me start by saying that I like to use the word distress because I think it's a little more all-encompassing than using the sort of typical vocabulary that we talk about in counseling. So a lot of times people will talk about disorder. Do you have this disorder? Do you have that diagnosis? And while I think those particular terms are helpful and necessary when they're the best words to use, I think it sort of minimizes the extent to which people can be in distress while not yet meeting diagnostic criteria for necessarily professional intervention. So I like to use the word distress here, which you've obviously you know uh gotten a hold of as well. Because I feel like there are times and situations where intervention is warranted, intervention is necessary, even though the problem itself does not necessarily rise to the level of does this person have a disorder, does this person have a mental health diagnosis, that sort of thing? So we're talking about somebody who is in distress. And I would say that the best way, sorry, I would say that the best way to assess as to whether or not someone is in distress is to look at any changes in their mood, changes in their affect, changes in their their behavioral habits, their eating, their sleeping, and how do these changes impact probably negatively their functioning? And so that when people come to me or they refer someone to me, generally the issue is I can tell that something is wrong because of changes in what they're doing or how they're looking and how that's impacting them functioning in a variety of roles.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

So that's so helpful, actually. I know that's it, it seems simple, but it's really helpful for me because I think about times on a Sunday morning when somebody's walked in and they act differently. Maybe they kind of brush me off or they're they're not smiling. They're normally smiling. And it's easy for me to just judge that person and think, you know, hey, what's up with them? They're they're ha they're in a bad mood today, or wow, they're grumpy, or you know, you hear people say they must have got up on the wrong side of the bed. But as a Christian, my response should be one of compassion. I should be wondering, um, not primarily about how that their change in mood is making me feel, but could this indicate that, hey, maybe this person is hurting right now? And maybe what I really need to do is just if I sense that, say, um, hey, you want to come over for a meal? Or do you want to go out for coffee and chat and not push them, but see, you know, if something comes up, because that's what the body does. So I I like that. It's really simple, but just if you you notice a change in somebody's um mood or in the way they're behaving, the way they're dressing, whatever, that could be an indicator of distress.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Am I hearing you correctly there? Yeah, absolutely. So I think there are times where we sort of minimize what those changes may be looking like because they don't rise to the level of necessarily needing clinical attention. So, you know, clearly this person is doing well enough that they were able to come to church, clearly they're able to, you know, dress themselves and you know, drive all the way here. So they must not be struggling that much. But recognizing that there's still a level of concern, you know, what I call distress, that we really should be, we really should be paying attention to, not saying, well, it's not it doesn't meet criteria for a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, so let's just pretend everything is okay. You know, there's there are still people who are in in distress while not yet necessarily disordered or dysfunctional or diagnosable.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Yeah, that's very helpful. Um when we identify somebody in distress, let's just say uh we we notice a change or we and we get talking, then we have a conversation with them, they tell us what's going on in their life, how they're feeling. What are the most common, maybe what are the most detrimental mistakes that we can uh we can make? And I'll just give an example of one that I know I've made is just jumping too quick, like um trying to respond too quickly. And I don't know, uh sometimes people say that's a guy thing. We we want to fix things or fixers, and I've had to identify like just a big mistake I've made in past years of pastoral counseling and care is just trying to jump too quick. So, what are some other mistakes, some some things, uh conclusions that we jump to, detrimental mistakes that we make when we're trying to help someone we've identified in distress?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah, great question. I think that I think that probably the first the first detrimental mistake would be to automatically assume that this person has a spiritual problem. Right? So you mentioned somebody comes into church and they're you know sort of sullen affect, you know, they've they've they don't have that typical smile on their face, you know, maybe they're shuffling in, uh maybe sitting further back, maybe not connecting with with friends or family, you know, eyes are cast downward, that sort of thing. You know, we shouldn't look at that person and say, Oh, there's clearly this is a spiritual problem. Clearly uh there is uh you know some sort of of spiritual need that is here. At the same time, I want to be quick to say that another uh detrimental mistake would be to do the reverse, to assume that something is not a spiritual uh issue, you know, not to immediately discount what could actually be conviction and say, oh well, they're in emotional distress. Well, maybe they're in emotional distress because in fact they are uh you know under conviction because of some hidden sin in their life. So I would say that the particularly within the church, the the concern that I have is that people too quickly over-spiritualize something or that they too quickly under spiritualize something. And in in that case, what needs to happen is you need to connect with that person, you know, you see coming into the back of the church and and getting more, not getting more information as though you're a Department of Motor Vehicles employee, but getting more information from them as to what's going on and how maybe you can connect with them to help. Uh, it may be a spiritual issue, it may not be a spiritual issue. I guess what I'm saying is the most common detrimental mistake is to assume that you know whether it's spiritual or not on site.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Right. So my uh response, I'd be curious to know what you think about this, is that um both of those are are equal but opposite errors, but actually the truth is usually somewhere in the middle because it may be like, for example, this person was was hurt, they received an injustice, and their distress is can be partially explained by that. But maybe they responded to that in a sinful way, and that has you know amped up the distress. So one of the one of the things that I've bumped into is sometimes I'm trying to talk somebody through this and I find out something that happened to them, and it's easy to let them off the hook, and they need to be left off the hook for that. But then on the other hand, there may be a part that they played in it, and I need to be careful that if that's the piece I uncover in my conversation, I don't jump on them and say, you know, well, this is why you're feeling this way. It's really a both and situation. We need to recognize how we've been hurt and why we reacted in the way we did and how that contributed to it, but then also take responsibility for the part we played. And untangling that seems to be the challenge. So it when we're trying to ununtangle that, because these situations can be so complicated. You know, how do we go about that?

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Yeah, so in in addictions counseling, a frequently used adage is your past may explain your behavior, but it doesn't justify it. And so you'll have people who who will have traumatic narratives, right? They've come from you know a very dysfunctional home, they were exposed to inappropriate relationships or inappropriate material, uh, that that sort of thing. And that clearly has a significant impact on the reason that they're in distress right now. That doesn't mean that we excuse the behavior that they make in response to that traumatic, uh, traumatic, you know, trauma, traumatic traumatic experiences from from before. So so yeah, it may explain their behavior or explain their distress, but it isn't um that doesn't necessarily mean that their behavior as a result is justified.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Right. So sometimes we hear somebody say, This is why you did what you did. And they're pointing to something that may be beyond that control, beyond that person's control, like you know, uh wounds from their past or or a home situation. Um, but what they did was wrong, why they did it may be explainable by something beyond their control, but what they did is wrong. And and sometimes even the why, it seems like even the why could be multifaceted, right? So uh why they did what they did is in part due to those circumstances, but they're if they're you know, they're we're born sinful, we have this sinful nature, and so we have a tendency then to also react in these ways um because of that that sinfulness in us. So it's it's it can be both and even on the why end of things, not just the what, the action itself. So we need to recognize like these complicated um reasons for our behavior and not just try to oversimplify this as an either or. Would you agree with that assessment?

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Right, right. That it there it could be a spiritual issue, it could not be a spiritual issue. There's there's as you said, there's this component somewhere in between where it's really, and not even I wouldn't even say it's a 50-50 endeavor. Yeah, just that uh lots of things are going on at the same time, and there's lots of lots of you know early childhood attachment situations going on. There's lots of you know situational concerns that that all relate to current functioning that someone can present as being in distress and even verbally acknowledge. I mean, I should have I should have said that. How can we identify when someone is in distress when they tell you I'm in distress? I'm in distress, you know, help me out here. Um, you know, so there are lots of factors as to what as to what play in there. So I guess what I'm saying is the most detrimental one is assuming that you know why they're in distress and assuming that you know the best pathway out. One of the things that I tell my counseling students is that if you've ever dropped a cinder block on your foot before, and thank the Lord I haven't done that, but if you have dropped a cinder block on your on your foot before and you see somebody else limping in a way that looks like the limp that you limped with when you dropped a cinder block on your foot, then you're going to tend to project your own experience onto them and say, that person must have dropped a cinder block on their foot. Here's what was helpful for me. And so they should follow the same steps that I followed in order to find the path out of the pain. Well, if they didn't drop a cinder block on their foot, if the reason they're limping is because they stepped on a rusty nail, then your actions towards them may not only not be helpful, but they may actually be detrimental. So similarly, you know, many of us have lost loved ones. We've grieved a loved, you know, the loss of a friend or a family member. And so if we project our own experiences, so back to your story of you know, somebody coming into church, maybe a little bit late, maybe a little disheveled, you know, just appear to look distressed by the look on their face. And we know that they recently lost a loved one. We may start projecting our own experience, make assumptions about what's happening to them and what the path looks like to come out based on our experience rather than basing it on what this particular person needs in this particular situation.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Right. So that's that's super helpful. Um, I also think there are situations where maybe they did drop a cinder block, right? Maybe we both have the same problem, but that doesn't necessarily then mean, even if we even if we identify it as the same problem, that that we have the same path to healing. So, you know, a doctor might treat one patient differently than another one, depending on exactly uh, you know, what happened. So I think sometimes too, uh, there's this other potential problem where we we do see somebody who's gone through what we've gone through, and we think that that that means the solution is exactly the same. So I don't know if this is getting off track a little bit here, but I think of even somebody who's like, because this is something I've recently tried to help somebody through, like, is really distressed because they can't break the habit of smoking. So they're just, they're just feeling like, does this mean that God doesn't love me? Does it mean I'm not a Christian? And somebody else, maybe they did have the same issue and they were distressed about it. And they went to the altar and they prayed and God delivered it, you know, delivered them in an instant. And they say, well, if you just pray harder, you know, this addiction would go away. And I think of something that uh Alan Brown said one time about 1 Corinthians 10, 13, you know, no temptation has overcome you except that which is common to man. You know, you might have both struggled with the same temptation of smoking, but God will make an escape, he'll give you a way that you'll be able to bear it. So if he delivers you from smoking in an instant, it might not be because you were super spiritual and strong. It might be because you were so weak that he knew you couldn't bear it through other means of discipline. So one person's way, path to healing from that distress may be instantaneous, but the next person's path might be through accountability and you know, taking act proactive steps and and whatever. So uh any thoughts on that? Like even if we do have the same issues, just the need to treat people as individuals and recognize that God gives everyone a way of escape, but it doesn't always look the same.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, absolutely. And I I have a story similar to the one that you shared, where I was uh actually a young person riding in the back seat of a car with some with some family members in the front seat, and they had remarked one of them had remarked about uh a new believer who was struggling to, and it was actually it was actually nicotine cigarettes as well, and made a com one of the uh one of the family members commented that uh this new believer was you know struggling for a long time to to move on from this from this you know many decades-long addiction, and how they had been, their testimony had been, you know, instantaneous deliverance, and their spouse, who was sitting in, you know, in the front seat next to them, said basically the same sort of uh maybe folk theology uh that you just shared, which is which is you know, God knew that you you could not, there was no path for you to work through this. Like you were so enslaved by sin that the only way for you to make it was for God to provide instantaneous deliverance. You know, and and look how, look how this other this other person who, yes, they're struggling, yes, it's been a process for them, but look how it has rejuvenated our church as we've come alongside this this man and his struggle and as we've, you know, look how God has been glorified. God was glorified in your instantaneous deliverance, but look how God is glorified in this man, you know, putting his uh you know, putting his all into this and and you know, asking for the support of the church to help him through this decades-long addiction. You know, surely you can recognize that God is getting glory in this process as well. And so similarly, that that sort of that sort of thing comes up all of the time in counseling where people will say, you know, this person got over this much quicker than I did, or what, you know, this person was able to resolve this concern in a way that was different than I have, you know, and recognizing that you know we're all different and God is working in us and through us in in different ways. And and you know, he's you know, there's no situation beyond his power to redeem and restore for his glory and for our edification. And that's going to look different based on the experiences that we've had, based on uh the supportive nature of those who are around us. And so, yeah, we can't look at somebody and say, because they're limping in the way that I limped, or because they're going through a situation that I went through, that means they, you know, God is providing for them the same way out that He provided for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah, I love that your example draws out the communal dimension of helping others in distress and how actually helping someone else can help the whole body. I think one of my biggest concerns actually about the pray it-away theology is that it becomes so much about the individual. Um, and when we look at uh the New Testament, the emphasis is always on us being holy and us overcoming sin and us helping one another to heal and to have to find strength. We find strength in community, we find healing, whether it's a sin issue or not, right? We find strength and healing in community. It takes a village, it takes a body. And uh, and sometimes when we're just pressing for somebody, well, just go to God with that need in prayer and he'll deliver you. We are, we might even be making them feel like, well, if I go to God and He doesn't do take this away right away, then that's I don't have a community that's willing to support me because this community has already told me this is the only way that I can get help. And they need to know maybe that, hey, this body, they're willing to walk through me however long with with me, however long this takes. Maybe this is like a year, you know, or maybe it's a lifetime of recovering from some kind of serious abuse. Like, they need to know that the community is there for them. And if if the hand is wounded, right, we're not gonna like chop off the hand until the hand gets healed and then reattach it. Like, no, like the whole body is there to help bring healing strength to the hand until it works through that. And like, maybe I'm pushing this illustration too far, but when one part of your body is hurt, like it sometimes it draws energy and strength from the rest of the body until that body part gets healed. And so, like, that's one of the reasons why I think maybe we avoid this, is it it can be costly and messy to get involved in some in somebody's life and walk with them through the distress that they're facing.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Absolutely. And that's but that's part of what it means to be part of the body, right? That's that's you know that's something that God has called us to do. Now I recognize that he has called us differently. So you know there isn't uh you know just just as we're not all called to preach the word uh we're not all called you know in the same in the same way related to counseling I won't I won't push that to to that extreme but to recognize that we are all called to come alongside those those who are in distress you know I I think is something that perhaps has been uh has been underemphasized on both ends of a continuum so you have you have people on on one side who would say you know this you need to take this to an altar of prayer and and leave it there and get up with faith that God has prov has already provided deliverance for you. Do you have somebody on the on the other extreme who would say you need to find a mental health professional you need to go talk to your family doctor you know you need to find some outside support to provide you for some you know some symptom relief in this particular area both of these I think are are incomplete. Now am I saying that we shouldn't encourage people to to to yield things and leave them at the altar. No of course that's an important part of our of our uh important part of our faith and practice am I say am I saying that there aren't situations that we shouldn't consult with you know a credentialed medical doctor no of course but there's all of these situations in between where where the people of God need to be the people of God we need to support one another through relationship through connection right we're created in the image of a triune God. You know we're created with this need for connection with God connection with family connection with fellow believers just sort of you know created right just wrapped up in our DNA. And so it has it has bothered me a time you know more than a time or two to hear someone too quickly say one or both sometimes even those opposite extremes without adequately emphasizing the need to you know how connected are you with the body of Christ and and that being an important component to moving on and moving through these these times of distress.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah I love that and maybe sometime we need to block out a whole a whole episode just to talk about how a healthy church can be an excellent place for somebody to find healing. And I think in David Fry he wrote an uh an article or a paper for uh Holy Joys on uh helping those who are recovering from addiction and talked about how one of the models of recovery is the social model and there's a sense in which the church is actually the best equipped setting for something like that. We think of like Acts two like immediately after the spirit comes a spirit filled church is marked by people who are eating their meals together every day not once a quarter you know not not that we literally have to eat our meals together every day but boy I think we could do a whole lot better in that area. Like you know you I can say if my wife is in distress, I know it like I don't have to guess because I live my life with her. And like maybe the problem is that we are so disconnected in our in our Western model of church we're consumer minded we come we get what we want and we go and and maybe we have a little click two or three people that we we talk to every time we don't really have a community we have a click and so yeah we don't know when they're going through distress or how to help them because we really don't even know them as people and they're not a part of our life. But what if the church looked like you know Acts chapter two where we're breaking bread together we're living life together we're willing to hey our brother is a financial need, you know, we're willing to sell something to to make sure they get it or to dip into our retirement or whatever. And and I I'm I maybe I'm going off track but I'm just trying to to like paint this picture of what I think the church could be if we could be a strong community maybe that that just creating a healthy church is one of the the first steps towards being better about helping people in distress. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yeah I I definitely would definitely affirm that one of the passions that I have is to try to equip the church to provide soul care. You know I I used to call it pastoral care and I had somebody say to me well it sounds like you're speaking down to the office of pastor. So I don't want to be accused of doing that. That's not what I mean when I say pastoral care. So but the idea I I read another author who used the term soul care you know and I feel like there are situations where you know basic counseling skills can be used by lay people can be used by people who are not maybe even naturally equipped in this way but they can sort of foster an area of giftedness to where they can impact their own church community and even the community outside their own church, right? That they that they are equipped to be able to respond in a way that you know provides at least some degree of encouragement in that moment but also gives the the person in distress something to build on somewhere you know a direction to be pointed you know I I think that we do a disservice if we too quickly say well even back so back to the altar analogy right I was about to say too quickly point someone to the altar but how much more effective is it to come alongside a brother or a sister and say I'm gonna go forward and pray with you rather than just say you go down to the altar and make confession or whatever whatever the issue is. But you know no we we believe that there's there's value in surrounding them with a host of prayers. And so it's that same sort of mentality that says we need to not just send them alone to the altar or send them alone to a medical provider but that we need to come alongside and that we need to engage with them where they are we need to use you know use listening skills we need to you know help them to express their narrative you know tell us what's going on and what we can do to help. And and those aren't things that you have to have a lot of credentials to be able to do. You know those are things that I think even in a local church setting you mentioned you mentioned Dr. David Fry a few years ago I was invited to to speak at his church and uh we had traditional services in in the evening and on the weekend but on Saturday we spent all day or almost all day talking about what does this look like? How do their small group leaders how do their discipleship leaders how do their Sunday school teachers foster an environment where people who are in distress are ready and willing to say can you help me? I'm struggling with this particular issue and how do we equip those people to respond in a way that's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah it's excellent it's so needed. You know you mentioned the need for the church to be equipped in in soul care and I think there are also errors into which we can fall here I I think there's a big push for pastors in our day to get counseling degrees for example and you know I have been very skeptical of that not because I don't think it's vitally important but because I know that in the day we live in it's very likely that pastor's time will be consumed with counseling. He'll basically function as a counselor um but not one that's as fully trained as really he may need to be and then he's gonna get distracted from the ministry of the word in prayer. So that's why it's so important to know when to provide soul care, when it's an issue that maybe somebody else in the body needs to help with like a small group leader or a or just a small group as a whole or when it's an issue that really needs to be referred to a licensed mental health professional. So I I want to ask you a little bit about that, you know, how quick we should be to refer somebody but before I do that I would like your your comments as a counselor, Christian counselor, what are your thoughts on the trend for pastors to to uh to pursue counseling degrees I know some who are considering it right now I had considered it in the past and um and I am I'm just increasingly skeptical about it and yet I recognize the need as a pastor to be more equipped. So what are your thoughts just on that trend in general?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yeah so great question. So you know as you know I'm involved in higher education as well so at the undergraduate level uh you know I teach I chair a counseling department and all of the pastoral ministry students are required to take uh at least one psychology class and that's because the state we're in requires that um but we require we require each pastoral ministries student to take at least one counseling class a lot of times when we have in our online program we have uh like a degree completion program somebody who started you know 10-15 years ago circumstances of life changed they they didn't finish the degree and began to pursue something else they're in the pastorate now and feel as though they'd like to come back and complete the degree people who do that tend to like you said even if they're not pursuing a counseling degree tend to say I would like to take more counseling classes this time around when I my my doctoral dissertation is is called conservative pastors of conservative holiness pastors ability to assess for depression and their willingness to refer to mental health professionals and in that study when I surveyed the the 120 pastors who agreed to be part of my study um there were only a handful who had taken more than one counseling course in their time so it's a it's a big shift as you said for people to suddenly say uh you know I should pursue graduate studies in the area of counseling I would say that the the counseling as a profession is specific enough that I wouldn't necessarily encourage I would not encourage a would not encourage a pastor who feels as though his calling his vocational calling is in the pulpit I would not advise them to go and get a counseling degree but I would advise them to include as much counseling as possible in their course of study. So if it's a master's in ministry program or a master's of divinity program and they're studying pastoral responsibilities across the board certainly you want to avail yourself of the uh the resources that are there for pastors who who do take on this role. So and I function in that capacity as well I teach for a graduate program that offers four counseling classes and you know four semester long classes. So in a 36 hour master's this would be one third of your you know 12 hours one third of the curriculum would be really was specific to counseling. And having gone through that with a couple of different cohorts now the feedback from pastors saying this didn't just help my pastoral care these classes helped my preaching as well as I've worked through this material and and and gone through these studies. So you know I definitely believe that pastors should be more and more equipped to provide soul care, to provide pastoral care and counselor uh and counsel to their parishioners but yeah I I don't think that I would advise someone to only study that you know to the absence of uh you know addressing you know hermeneutics and homiletics and you know the other important you know uh inductive Bible study and the other things that you should be getting in a in a graduate in a graduate program that is developed around educating pastors.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

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