Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
How Theology Helps Us to Care for Others in Distress
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In this episode, Andrew Graham and Johnathan Arnold continue discussing how to care for others in distress.
Yeah, so I I mean I definitely think that there's a place, I believe that there's a place for pastors to be equipped as practical theologians, and part of practical theology is helping people in distress.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, a discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_00One of my personal passions is for theological education in the local church and for pastors to function as theologians. That is the classic Christian vision of ministry, and we we seem to have really gotten away from that. Um and so one of my concerns is that in potentially getting focused in other areas, the pastor will not be adequately equipped because I know so many pastors who unfortunately are really weak in theology, but some of them have leadership and admin degrees, they have counseling degrees. So what I want to do, bet what I want to be better about is trying to have a more holistic vision. This is something I'm I'm personally developing. So here's a question: Do you have any thoughts on this? How do we bring theology to bear in pastoral care? Because I don't want to create this idea either that preaching, teaching, and theology are one thing and pastoral care and counseling are something else, and you have to choose either or, and there's no integration because uh that couldn't be further from the truth. And you make a great point that if you do uh, you know, take counseling classes, you're gonna better understand people, you're gonna better understand yourself, you're gonna better understand how to communicate, and that's gonna benefit your preaching and teaching. How do we bring uh pastoral uh theology to bear on pastoral care? And um and what do you what are your general thoughts on integration?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, wow. So I mean these are these are graduate level class, uh, you know, three hour lectures.
SPEAKER_00Um maybe we should hold off on that. Should we should we should we do that another time, you know? Because because this is the fun of this, this for me, right? The podcast thing, because I get to ask these questions, but sometimes they don't come up until we're right in the middle of the conversation. Sure, sure. Do you want to maybe uh maybe just say a few words with the understanding that, hey, maybe we could talk about this another time too?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. So uh, you know, I was I was lecturing today on in a in a graduate counseling class related to uh you know the integration of psychological principles along with our Christian faith, you know, and I was actually pushing back against a student who was saying, you know, is it is this like we're pouring two different vials of truth together and mixing them up? No, it's not. That's not that's not what integration looks like. Integration is more about how do we how how is our faith the lens through which we're we're viewing everything, and how do we look at social science data, how do we look at any sort of scientific data and interpret it through the lens of scripture, through the lens of Christian experience, and say, you know, this can be used in this sort of setting? You know, and that's what responsible integration looks like to me. That there are there are points of psychological dogma that are not specifically referenced in you know at all in scripture, does that mean that we cannot use it? No, of course not. But it does mean that we need to be looking at that information through the lens of through the lens of scripture or through the lens of Christian experience. So one of the books, and so going backwards a little bit to say that um going backwards a little bit when you talked about you know the the theological ramifications of that, a book that really revolutionized my own reading uh was a book called Uh Theology for Better Counseling, written by a Christian psychologist uh who has taught at two different seminaries, uh, actually was you know taught at uh the seminary that I attended for my master's degree. And she reflected on the fact that there would often be interdisciplin dialogue, you know, in the cafeteria or in faculty meetings, those sorts of things, and how as a counseling faculty member, she felt less equipped to talk about robust theological things. And so she she spent a sabbatical, uh she's a Wesleyan, and so she spent uh a large chunk of her sabbatical uh reading, uh reading Wesley and reading others about Wesleyan thought, those sorts of things, and talked about how it just absolutely revolutionized not just her teaching of counseling, but the actual practice of counseling for her as well. And so I read that book and I took the challenge and I decided, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a pretty big reader. And so I decided that that particular year, 50% of the books that I read were going to be theology books. I had attended Bible college for my undergraduate degree, I had attended a seminary for my master's degree, and my doctorates from a Christian university. And yet I did I had not spent a lot of time in classic works of theology or even contemporary works of theology for that matter. And so really committed myself uh to doing that. And I certainly would affirm her conclusions, and that is the more robust theology that I was willing to engage in, in reading and in discussions and in you know interactions with with others, the more that benefited me personally, but it also I feel you know benefited those that I'm working with, those that I'm coming alongside as their counselor. So yeah, so I I mean I definitely think that there's a place, I believe that there's a place for pastors to be equipped as practical theologians, and part of practical theology is helping people in distress.
SPEAKER_00Right. Oh, that that makes me happy. So I I uh there's so much I could say right there, and I need to be careful that I don't that I don't uh spend too much time on this point. But so our mission statement is for a holy happy church through the promotion of robust theology. I don't know if you've heard us use that term, but uh what we mean by that is strong, healthy theology. And without it, you can't have a holy happy people. So a person who never gets treatment for their, you know, emotional disorder or distress is not gonna experience the happiness that in God that they're intended to experience. So the church has to have this holistic approach. And as long as we treat theology like something that's different and separate from that, uh, we're always gonna be unhealthy. And I think of some of the songs that we sing, like uh, we sing the song that says, His oath, his covenant, his blood, support me in the whelming flood, when all around my soul gives way, he then is all my hope and stay. It's like, you you're meaning that in the midst of distress, the oath of God, the covenant of God, and the atonement are your points of refuge. Well, yeah, like as Christians, that theology brings us great comfort, the theology of the sovereignty of God. Um, in fact, I spent my Passion Week here this year studying the doctrine of the descent, Christ's descent to the dead, he descended to the dead. And um, you know, I've I never hear anybody talk about the descent to the dead, but I'll tell you what I definitely don't hear is anybody talking about how it relates to pastoral care. And I read this great book by Matt Emerson, and he has this whole section on how this should be central to our pastoral care when it comes to death or dying. Because the classic Christian message is that because Christ descended the dead, Jesus has experienced human death to the fullest. Which means when when your loved one experiences human death or you experience the loss and grieving that comes with it, Jesus knows what that's like. And he has risen victorious, and your loved one is gonna rise again too in the resurrection of the dead. And it's like, wow, I mean, that's such an obscure theological topic, but it doesn't matter where you touch down in theology, it doesn't matter where you open a theological, systematic theology textbook and point your finger, there is gonna be incredible practical ramifications. So when we talk about practic, you know, practical theology, we're talking about a specific branch of theology, but all theology is also practical. And uh, you know, Oliver O'Donovan said we don't accept a truth about God uh as a function of its utility, and yet truths are useful to creatures such as we who need truth in order to live by it. These truths really ground us in who we are. So anyway, I'm on my soapbox, but this is this is so, so key, I think, for us. And it reminds me of something that you wrote that I had forgotten about. You wrote a little article on what makes Christian counseling Christian. Is that right? Is that the title of it? Yeah. So you say in there uh something about how Christian, for a Christian counselor, good theory is built upon good theology. So is that that's that line stuck out to me. Is that basically the point that you're making that you know what what we how we determine a Christian counselor from one who is not is that they see all these issues through the lens of robust theology?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. So in a class where we where we really hammer these sorts of things out, you know, what can we learn from evidence-based, empirically valid theory, and how does that match up with what we with with what we believe about the nature of sin, about the nature of redemption, about the nature of restoration, you know, those those sorts of things. I mean, I can think of when I was in a in a Christian university context sitting around at lunch one day uh talking about our various theological uh systems, and knowing that I was the only Wesleyan uh at the table and commenting to them that uh I feel as though we are teaching, we were teaching people a thoroughly Wesleyan view of what redemption and restoration looks like. Here are people who are talking about how do we foster an environment where these people who are in distress are able to come out of that and live victoriously, while their theology didn't necessarily uh didn't necessarily endorse that sort of uh you know, that sort of outcome. And so here, you know, here I was commenting to them that the the further we're getting into this discussion about the you know the efficacy of counseling and helping someone move from where they are to where they know they need to be, you know, this this this is this isn't necessarily consistent with your theological uh presuppositions, at least not in comparison to to maybe some of the ones that I that I would hold that was that was different from them. But uh yeah, absolutely. I think that the church is, I think that the church is um, as we become more and more equipped to answer these sorts of questions, you know, we're able to to minister to the needs inside the congregation and we're able to minister to the needs outside the congregation as well. Just here recently, uh a man was talking to me about his parents and said how how his his you know, godly's an older, older gentleman, but talking about his parents um who would be very up in age now if they're still alive, and talked about how uh you know very friendly people, very godly people, and there was a point at which a neighbor came to their house and expressed some concern, uh, something was going on in their life. He couldn't remember what it was, he thought maybe bereavement, something like that. Somebody had passed away, they were having a hard time getting over that. And so they knew that their neighbors were Christians. And so they came to the neighbor and said, What how can you help us? What can you do? And and the couple was just not really prepared. They didn't, they didn't know what to say. They just said, Well, we'll we'll pray for you and we'll we'll tell our pastor that uh you know he should perform a pastoral visit, and just sort of didn't pray for them even in that moment, just sort of closed the door on them. And this this older man now, but younger man then was saying, you know, I thought to myself, what what uh what an opportunity was lost because my parents who would have been interested in being equipped to answer those questions did not have at their immediate disposal the information or the the means of communicating that information in a way that would be helpful to our neighbor in distress. So I feel as though as the church you know uh equips itself and and equips the laity in the church, you know, I feel as though it it it brings benefit to the congregation, but it also brings uh benefit to the community.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. So suppose you have a pastor who wants to be better equipped and wants to equip his people. What uh what resources do you recommend? How do you how do you go about that? Um you know, maybe even talk about in on this issue of referral before we before we talk a little bit more about that. Um, you know, how do you how do you know how to find somebody to refer to? Um I think resources are one of the most difficult things that I've wrestled with in this this issue.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so if we're going way back to, you know, you've you've identified somebody has walked into the door of your church, and you you're able to assess them quickly and say, you know, there's something is different with this brother or this sister, they're going through something right now, you know, and so so coming alongside them and and even asking them, you know, I think I think there's been some stigma around distress to the to the point where people maybe feel as though somebody doesn't want to be asked if they're doing okay. But you know, if you've if you if you if you've if you as a pastor have adequately fostered an environment of safety in that church, you know, I would hope that you'd be able to come up to someone and say, you know, how how how are you? No, no, no, really how are you? You know, you think things look like maybe looks like maybe something is troubling you today. Is there is there a place that we can go and sit and talk? And and so my first my first inclination in a situation like that is not who do we refer this person to, but how do we as a church meet this person's need where they are, right? Can we can we match them up with a mentor? Can we, you know, do we have resources? Do we have a church library that we can recommend a particular book to them, you know, that may help them navigate whatever they're going through? If we don't have that, you know, then what does it look like to get some to identify somebody outside the church? Now, whenever that happens, it's important for a pastor or anybody else to not make it sound as though you're too sick uh for me to be able to help you. It really has to do with a lack of my own training and experience in this particular area. The fact that the fact that you, Jonathan, aren't prepared to address every single possible point of emotional distress, you know, that's you know, that's not really your lack, nor is it the person's lack that's sitting in front of you. It just is. And we have specialties.
SPEAKER_00It might even be good to say, if it's true, that you've been to a counselor too. Uh, you know, because I I know I've I've uh my wife and I did premarital counseling. So it's not dishonest to say, hey, we recognize the need for outside help. And I think a lot of people have gotten premarital counseling. So uh I don't I mean, I don't know what your thoughts would be on that, but sometimes just that kind of level of transparency. I have a friend that's going past her friend who's going through a severe trial right now, and he just felt the need for the sake of, you know, especially for his children, for him and his wife to go talk to a counselor. Like if just admitting that too could maybe maybe relieve some of that tension.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Reduce reduces stigma, reduces the idea that I'm I'm viewing you as somehow less than, you know, and yeah, and being able to say, you know, I I mean, I feel like this is something that a pastor should consider being proactive about. I talked about this at the outreach and bus convention a couple of years ago, the need to go through the local counselors in your community and you know, maybe even take somebody out for lunch, you know, or or uh, you know, attend your local ministerial alliance and find out which of the counselors in the area, you know, seem to work best with a conservative Christian population, you know, that that sort of thing, you know, being able to say, you know, hey, I've I've I've done some research and this seems to be a good person, and and maybe you can maybe you would benefit from being able to talk with them, or uh, you know, there have been situations where I've even counseled people where somebody came with them from their from their church, you know, that they they would say, you know, this is my small group leader or this is uh you know my pastor's wife, uh, you know, those those sorts of uh scenarios. So, you know, in my mind, referral happens when either when the person is at the point where not getting professional intervention is in itself dangerous, right? If if they're in such distress that you know something bad could happen, you know, they're they're dangerous to themselves or they're dangerous to those around them. Certainly that person needs you know immediate professional intervention. But if somebody is unable to engage with supportive relationships within the body of Christ, or or they've been able to engage, but it hasn't really changed what's going on with them emotionally or behaviorally, then I do think it's helpful to uh to refer them and say, hey, this is this is just a resource. And and and maybe you know, I've had churches who were willing to pay for for people uh to come to me for counsel, you know. So I mean sometimes the church can even come alongside in that way and say, you know, if finances are a barrier, you know, we've got some some monies that would be set aside for for this sort of thing. And and talking about this being this being of value. You know, we see you as somebody valuable to us as a member of the body of Christ here in our local congregation, and we want to see you, you know, thriving and flourishing and and supporting others. And if the if if we need to support you during this time, then then we want to do that.
SPEAKER_00That's great. So some of your practical advice, uh make sure you have a church library with some books, and uh maybe sometime we can even provide a list of books that you would recommend, setting aside funds for the purpose, being willing to encourage it, doing whatever you can to diminish the stigma that's already around it, being vulnerable yourself, uh, maybe teaching people how to ask leading questions, encouraging a transparent atmosphere. Is there anything else I'm missing there? Because those are, I think, really important takeaways for somebody who, you know, once you hear something like this, it's like, yeah, I want to help people and I want to be better about it, but wow, what really practical steps do I take? And I think some of these things could be, you know, could be excellent. Any other, any other practical tips that I missed there or that you would you would want to add?
SPEAKER_02Well, you mentioned training opportunities in like, you know, a graduate school or even undergraduate school environment. And those, there's obviously there's a lot of value there too for people who don't have the the need or the interest in getting a whole other degree. There are certainly training opportunities available, like I mentioned, you know, a local ministerial alliance that might bring in a speaker that talks about mental health or you know, emotional distress, or you know, how to respond when suicide you know impacts your community or your church or or those sorts of things. All the time I've had pastors you know from our from our background who will reach out to me and say, you know, this this particular author, this particular psychologist is in my community and he's you know doing this this speak at the local uh you know, local congregational church or whatever it is, you know, would you recommend, would there be value in me going to hear what this what this individual has to say? You know, and my response is absolutely, you know, uh, I mean, if it's somebody that I know and say, you know, you'll you'll get a lot of benefit from that. You know, it may not be in pursuit of a graduate degree, but you know, training, you know, the the pastor himself being trained to uh you know to meet the needs of the body in that way, you know, I I think those are helpful, helpful resources as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good. And you mentioned something again that I wanted to add to my own notes, just to know the counselors in your area. Um and that brings us to this referral issue. You've already said a few things about it, but I just want to make this this point really clear because we've talked about it before, and I think you uh you said something really important. The pendulum has kind of swung in some of the uh in some circles that used to maybe see more of a stigma on this, and we're really slow to ref uh to refer or over-spiritualize problems to where now sometimes we're actually too quick to refer. And maybe we're not recognizing how important it is to try to help people in the local body. So can you just just say a few words about that, the point that you had made before? And uh, and then when you do take the step of referral, uh maybe mention a little bit about where you go. You you shared a list with me before. I think it's through focus on the family. How do you find these local counselors when that is the step that you need to take?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so yeah, so back to the pendulum idea. I mean, I I do feel as though there were particularly generations past where, you know, the the church was maybe not a safe place for people to talk about things not being okay with them emotionally or or even behaviorally, that the assumption was there's some sort of sin in your life, or maybe this distress in itself is sinful. Um you know, and so yeah, I mean, I do see where a pendulum has seems to have swung almost, in some cases, almost too far the other, the other direction. I I had a friend who attended uh a training for parachurch. Ministry leaders, and they had a local psychologist or counselor came and spoke to them. And it seemed that the answer to every question was, you need to refer them to a mental health professional, you need to refer them to a mental health professional. And these these pastors and other leaders were saying, Well, what do we do if somebody you know is concerned about this particular problem, or they have, you know, this relationship concern, or they have, you know, whatever these, whatever these certain things are. The the response, every time it seemed as though the response was you need to refer them to a mental health professional. And so this friend contacted me after this training was over and said, Do you agree? And I said, Oh, there's so much that the body of Christ can do for people in at a lot of these points of distress. You know, no, I don't think that this, you know, automatically needs a referral. Now, there are some good resources out there for when you do need a referral. So you mentioned focus on the family, and focus on the family is a great resource. You can contact them by phone or you can go on their website, and they they will provide some uh sort of temporary, you know, they have licensed counselors that are on staff that you know that man the phones and answer you know the emails and that sort of stuff, but they will pretty quickly try to find a local provider. Um, and and you can just log on, you know, you don't have to share them with all with them all of the information. You can do that, or you can just access their database directly and say, you know, here's the zip code that I'm in, here's the you know, check the box related to the the the sort of distress, and then you'll get a profile of a person in your area. It is not easy to get on that list. Uh you have to be, you have to be uh uh, you know, a conservative evangelical Christian. You have to uh you know have an occupational license and and be fully insured and all of that in in your respective area. So you know, you're getting somebody who demonstrates that they have the professional credentials, but they also come from a similar theological background. Now there's some diversity within you know evangelical Christians, obviously. Um, and so that's something that may you may want to take a more detailed look at. But Focus on the Family has a has a really good database, and then uh the American Association of Christian Counselors also has uh a database as well where you can access, you put put in your zip code, it'll tell you anybody within 50 miles, and uh, and they'll they'll be able to you'll be able to read their profile and see if this is somebody that you feel like you could refer to. And if you're a pastor, you know, I've had pastors who've reached out to me and asked me specific questions about what I would do with this particular, with a particular issue because they wanted, you know, they they didn't know who I was, they didn't know my own, you know, religious background, my own theological tradition. And so they would you know ask those sorts of questions. And of course, I don't have any problem with with answering those, and I expect that most wouldn't. Now, you you may be in a community, a rural community that doesn't have somebody. I wouldn't automatically assume that just because somebody isn't you know in one of those two databases that they aren't Christians, uh, even in commun even in community mental health. I I I one time asked somebody if they believed that uh there were Christians who worked in community mental health settings, and so the one of the one of the folks answered, no way. You know, and I said, Well, I did it for 12 years, so so you know, and I was a conservative evangelical Christian while I was while I was in that context. So I wouldn't even just rule out that as a matter of course. Um but yeah, there are there are some resources out there for you to find who's in your community. Um, you know, online counseling is available more and more. About half of what I do is online. And so, you know, even somebody in another country who feels as though they would benefit from counseling, you know, we're able to log on through video technology and have sessions that way.
SPEAKER_00That's great. That reminds me actually of another issue on maybe where the pendulum has swung. Um, my parents talk about how when they were growing up, there was a big stigma on medication as part of treatment. And uh I have I have a friend that I'm thinking of who greatly benefited from medication. And honestly, I don't know that anything else would have helped them because they had tried almost every other course of action. Um, but one of the things that I seem to hear more and more is people say, well, you know, well, maybe medication will help you. And I know so many people that are medicated. And uh some of them that have gotten off of it and found, hey, I really didn't need to be medicated, and maybe this was hurting me more than it was helping me. So um I am certainly not against medication uh and and I'm no expert on these issues, but I would like your thoughts, you know, when do we encourage medication? When do we resort to it? Um, should this be something that we as ordinary Christians in the body should even be should even be suggesting beyond to say, you know, hey, if your mental health professional recommends it, don't think that it's not an option. You know, how do how do we handle this sensitive issue?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's another great question. And it's gonna differ by circumstance, really, for me. Uh I'm not I'm not somebody who is against medication for behavioral, emotional, psychological distress. Uh I'm not somebody who believes that that's the first line of attack. That's not the first way to address things. So uh, you know, if you think about the guy who walks into the emergency room and says, I have a headache, now if he needs a full frontal lobotomy, then I want him to be able, I want him to be able to get it. Okay. But but you know, the the uh you know in medicine they talk about the least restrictive means necessary, right? So if if the same symptom set can be treated effectively without a frontal lobotomy, right?
SPEAKER_00Without an ibuprofen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right, yeah. So, you know, then we want to do that. Now, there could become a point in time where we realize these other things are not helpful, and that indeed this person may actually benefit from the most from a frontal lobotomy. Right. So similarly, uh, I'm not a you know, I'm I would not ever say that someone should not be uh treated with an antidepressant if they were depressed, but my question would be to them what other supportive, you know, uh sort of social connections are you working on? Are you addressing those sorts of things? Not just are you addressing symptoms and treating symptoms with with a particular medication? So I had a student a number of years ago now who was in uh from another country, I can't remember off the top of my head, but maybe like New Zealand, who talked about how in their country you could not get an antidepressant unless you were also participating in counseling, because the efficacy of an antidepressant is higher when someone is participating in counseling. And I would say that the same sort, I'm I'm sure, well, I'm sure the data hasn't been collected on this, but if somebody were receiving, you know, a full complement of pastoral care and counseling from the body of Christ, that would increase the efficacy of that particular medication. So I don't think I so I I don't want to go on the record saying that I am hesitant to recommend uh medication because I do think that there is a time and a place for that. But I would not I would not advise that as a frontline first, you know, first uh you know, first level treatment. You know, I I feel as though there are other things that should be tried first, and then those things should be, you know, continue to happen alongside. You know, somebody who is, you know, somebody who is on a medication should also be participating in these other supportive relationships, whether that's with a you know a paid licensed professional or whether it's you know simply a relationship within the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. So helpful. Well, there's a lot of uh specific issues of distress that I'd like to talk about sometime, but I think we're gonna have to uh call this uh end here, call this an end. Um if you had to uh just for a moment in closing, speak to somebody who's listening to this who isn't listening because they want to help others in distress, but because they're in distress and they're hurting and they need help, and maybe they they don't know how to reach out, maybe they're not part of a supportive community, uh, maybe their pastor isn't uh you know, isn't aware of how to how to help, or the people in the body, they just they're just not sure. They're they're good people, but they just they're just not equipped. Uh what would you say to that person? How what what advice can you give to help them?
SPEAKER_02Wow. So so not long ago, within the last year, I had the opportunity to address a group of pastors to talk with them about how they are equipping their congregations to provide soul care. And I mean, I'm sure you've had this sort of experience when you've been in the pulpit, but I realized pretty quickly that I was not just talking to pastors who are interested in helping hurting people. I was talking to hurting people. Right. And in an audience of, I don't know, maybe 75, maybe 80 people, mostly pastors or lay leaders within their church, I would say there were at least 20 or 25 people whose eyes were welled up with tears. Now they may be empathic criers like I am. If you cry, I'll I'll generally cry along with you. Um, but it just it really shook me to some extent to say, you know, here these are people who've identified themselves as helpers, and yet somebody needs to come alongside them and say, you know what, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to ask if somebody can come alongside. And uh, you know, I feel like we on some level sort of intuitively know who around us is a safe person to go to, you know, and so finding that person in your local congregation or finding that person in your Christian school or finding that person within your own, if you're a pastor within within your own uh, you know, denomination or connection or or whatever the terminology is, and being able to say, hey, I'd like to spend some time with you, I'd like to connect with you, I'd like to be able to talk with you about some of what's going on in my own life or in my own ministry or some of the some things that I'm going through right now. And I just feel like you're the kind of person who would understand. Um, you know, and if you're not the kind of person who would understand, maybe you could at least point me in the right direction. Yeah. Uh, you know, I I think that um, yeah, we we see and we hear uh those who have maybe minimized distress, and we think maybe that that's the normative position. But you know, more and more, at least in the in the circles that I'm able to speak and interact, you know, people are are acknowledging, even older people. Uh I had I was at an event uh a number of years ago now, and somebody had specifically said to me, you're gonna want to steer away from this man. Uh, I think he's gonna be pretty hostile to what you have to say. And so I did. I felt like maybe that was good self-care for me to avoid that man. And he he made a made a line for me at one point and and came up to me, and I didn't know if he was gonna be confrontational or what. But his eyes welled up with tears, and he said, you know, Brother Graham, you know, I wonder how my ministry would have been different. I wonder how much more effective I would have been in my ministry if I had addressed some of the deep needs that I had because of the home that I grew up in. And I felt like I couldn't tell anybody how bad things were, and I felt like I couldn't reach out. And I, you know, and I feel now that it's in, and this is this is a man who'd been in in ministry for decades, and just saying to me, recognizing that I should have come forward, I should have, you know, reached out and said, can somebody help me through some of the distress that I've gone through in my life, some of the trauma and how it's impacted me and how it's impacted my relationships with others, etc. And so yeah, I feel like there are people out there who are who are interested. And in fact, uh, you know, if if somebody is listening and they don't know, uh they don't know what the next step could or should be, you know, I'd welcome them to email me. They can find me through the website and and uh reach out to me and we can talk about options or at least how to identify somebody in their local congregation or their local community there where they can reach out and get the support that they need.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys Podcast. Email your questions about theology and ministry practice to podcast at holyjoys.org. Our labors for a holy, happy church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
