Ravi Zacharias, Holiness Movement Too, Entire Sanctification, and Excusing Sin

Andrew Graham joins David Fry and Johnathan Arnold to discuss the recent news about Ravi Zacharias and what we can do in our own churches and institutions to expose abusers and help victims.

Quotes from Graham:

• People in Christian leadership are not exempt from temptation, not exempt from the possibility of falling. There needs to be structures in place that protect them and the people who serve alongside them.
• If we view this as an isolated, RZIM-specific issue, then I think we will be talking about the next one. Rather than each of us in our own context looking at what needs to be done differently moving forward.
• What systems are in place so when a ministry leader acknowledges I am not okay, there is a place for restoration and recovery? Rather than feeling like the only way forward is to continue to hide.
• Books like Becoming a Church that Cares Well for the Abused by Brad Hambrick and We Too: How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis by Mary E. DeMuth are very practical resources that talk about what to do for the victim and victimizer. 
• We need to listen to those who are victims. We need to hear their stories.
• Expressing your abuse narrative in a safe context is a significant part of beginning the healing journey. Identify someone who can help you.
• What am I doing and what are you doing in your context to make sure that the people who see you as a spiritual leader would say, “I know I can go to you and talk to you about this and you will handle it the right way."
• If someone identifies you as a safe person, you need to do the right thing. 

Quotes from Fry:

• We need to be very intentional as Wesleyans that we do not develop theological misconceptions that become a part of a structure that ensures something will happen and it will be overlooked because it can’t count as sin.
• We do not want to provide a theological shield behind which those who possess power in a ministry can hide.
• Someone who is caught up in sin will find theological reasons to justify themselves.
• We have to be aware that we are naturally going to be defensive of the system within which we work.
• We need room in our theology to understand that our system is not perfect. 

Quotes from Arnold:

• If we are serious about holiness, we must realize how we can undermine holiness by failing to call something sin that is sin.
• There are consequences for our theology. If we are not careful in the way that we preach and teach, real people get hurt.
• We’re unlikely to see red flags when our theological impulse is to justify those red flags.
• None of us are calling for the church to be weak on sin. We’re just calling for more nuance, more maturity, more carefulness, and more theological work. Because simplistic thinking hurts people. 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

That people in Christian leadership are not exempt from temptation, not exempt from the possibility of falling, and that there need to be structures in place that protect them.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Because sin is possible. It doesn't matter if it's RZIM, it doesn't matter if it is Liberty University. It doesn't matter if it is Willow Creek, or if it is a Holiness Church.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Frye. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice. All for a holy, happy church.

unknown 0:44

All right.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Well, it's good to be able to sit down here with Andrew Graham and David Fry and talk a little bit about the Robbie Zacharias situation, so devastating and feeling the aftermath of it. And certainly none of us are sufficient under these things. Don't have the wisdom to uh give the perfect answers, but we want to do our best to provide some um some counsel, some uh thoughts, just kind of reflect on this together. Dr. Graham's the expert really on these these uh very challenging issues, especially as it relates to to the victims. So uh we're gonna do our best to uh to talk through this a bit. Dr. Graham, can you just give us some of your your gut reactions? Uh how did you how have you processed this uh hearing the news?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, well, thanks for having me on, Jonathan. My first response was just how surreal it sounded, uh, far worse than what I had imagined. I do, I I should acknowledge that I had already had some concerns. I had been following the uh the 2017 disclosure by Lori Ann Thompson for the last several years. And even before that, there had been some concerns about the accuracy of some of the statements, mostly autobiographical statements that Ravi had made in some of his earlier writing, but even in some of his later writing, you know, some questionable credentials, some some timeline things that just didn't seem to line up. But certainly seeing the report, it was far, far worse than what I'd thought. So definitely a uh just a real surreal moment. And then and then just realizing the fallout that that would have, the the impact that he'd made on my own life. I I remember in college uh purchasing a cassette tape set uh where he had spoken at uh uh an Ivy League university, I can't remember where which one right now, uh you know, he was the baccalaureate speaker at my doctoral graduation. And so, you know, how does this impact me? How does this impact uh loved ones, students, former students, uh, you know, just realizing this is going to be a bigger deal than than other similar stories?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, so thanks, Andrew, and thanks for coming on. We've been discussing this now for some time, and and now since the report came out what a couple of weeks ago, and then the follow-up, pretty quickly follow-up apology by RZIM. Um my reflections have been what does this mean for our church? What's it say about our church culture and what does how do we move forward forward? How does church culture need to change?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Just the other day, I was uh scrolling through social media and someone had shared a uh a video clip from a sort of hyper-reformed perspective, and I should have just scrolled on, but I stopped and listened as these people use this as an opportunity to say, see, look, this was horrible theology. We should have known, uh, you know, this this wasn't an isolated thing, this is all about uh, you know, this is you know, we're gonna find this more and more with these, you know, evil Wesleyan Arminians with their repugnant doctrine. Uh and so, you know, my I I think I even said out loud, you know, tribalism, you know, here this becomes a becomes a critique of of someone's associations more than uh more than it is actually dealing with the issue. You know, I've seen people who have posted questions uh blaming these women again, as we've seen over and over here recently, blaming these women. Why did, you know, you're adults, why didn't you come forward? Why wouldn't you refuse to participate in in these actions? Um, yeah, there's a real reckoning as to, or needs to be a real reckoning, a real introspection to saying, you know, what what sort of systems are in place that allows this sort of thing to go on, and how do we address them? How do we protect um everyone involved from in this particular case from those women who were uh who are part of this all the way to to sortly the Zacharias family and and colleagues and and and uh financial supporters and even Ravi himself? How do we how do we do this better?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

So let me interject there and ask, what are those structures that uh are there or not there? Uh either there that support this kind of ongoing double life or structures that aren't there that should have been. What what do you see in the church world today that uh maybe larger than just RZIM? So I'm not really uh not really focused just on RZIM. Obviously, there are some things that were uh not working the way they should there, but more broadly speaking.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

So I feel like there's a temptation to, as you just mentioned, like make this about this isolated situation, right? How could this one thing have ever happened in this one specific vacuum? But we don't have to go too far back to see problems with Jerry Farwell Jr. We don't have to go far much further back from that to realize some power and control and manipulation in uh in Mark Driscoll, in in Bill Heibels, in uh Bill Gothard. So, and I don't bring up those names to just try to rehash all of that, but they're clearly this this seems to clearly identify that people in Christian leadership are not exempt from temptation, not exempt from the possibility of falling, and that there need to be structures in place that protect them and protect those who are serving alongside them. You know, I I went to my bookshelf in preparation for this discussion thinking, you know, I have all of these relatively new resources on how to deal with uh abuse inside the church. And I found a book from the 1990s, the early 1990s, published by two Christian uh two Christian uh ministry leaders. The book is called Sexual Misconduct in Counseling and Ministry: 10 Policies to Prevent Sexual Abuse, Taking Action Towards Violators, Help and Healing for Victims, Easing the Impact on Children, and Understanding Legal Issues. Um, I've not read this book since my graduate program when I did read it, but this is not a new problem. Uh and yet, if we if we view this as an isolated RZIM specific issue, I think we're going to be talking about the next one and the next one and the next one rather than rather than each of us in our own context looking at what needs to be done differently moving forward.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yeah, I think you mentioned um you've seen some like hyper-reformed responses saying, oh yeah, look, this is his, you know, somehow connected to his false doctrine. I've also seen um some Wesleans, a really conservative people, you know, who want to throw stones at, you know, well, it's because they don't believe in heart purity, or it's because they don't believe in entire sanctification. Um, and I just want to say, you know, the the me too, the we to, the church to um thing needs to be extended to the holiness movement too, because I have friends and family members who have privately confided in me that they've been molested and even raped as children or teenagers by church leaders and even their pastor. And these stories are untold because people are afraid to come forward, but we have seen some of it been, you know, coming to light, coming to the surface. And I think we're going to see more of it as we move towards a more healthy and transparent culture. And so we cannot exempt ourselves because we're serious about holiness and they aren't, we somehow are exempt from these failures. I think if we were honest, we have quite a few skeletons that we need to dig up.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

A number of years ago, I was asked by the Florida Association of Christian Colleges and Schools to put together a workshop on uh how do we respond? How do, in this case, Christian educators respond if a student makes a disclosure of abuse? And uh think I'd maybe published some notes about that on social media or online somewhere, and somebody had said, you know, this would be a good fit. You should talk about this at the outreach and bus convention. And so two years ago, next week, I gave that same presentation, changed it a little bit so that it was specific to a ministry, uh, you know, an outreach ministry context. There were probably about 50 people who were in attendance. And I realized about a third of the way through my presentation. I had started the presentation assuming that the people who had seen the title of my presentation had come because they wanted to know what to do if this ever happened to an outreach family that they were working with. And I realized about a third of the way through my presentation as I saw the number of people crying, and then this was confirmed by the questions that were asked privately or the comments that were made privately later, is I was realizing that the church people that were in attendance were not just there to listen to what they should do if this ever happens, but they were I was triggering them, right? They were, in a sense, almost maybe even being trauma re-traumatized because the wrong things had been happen had happened to them. They themselves have been victimized, victimized as as as you acknowledged in your own family, and and they had not felt safe, or maybe they did feel safe and the wrong thing was done. You know, oh well, we can't say that because nobody would believe you, or you know, oh, but so much good has been accomplished in this person's name. Think of how this would negatively impact the church or our denomination if if we were to do something about this. And so here, these were people that I thought, you know, were sort of hypothetically seeing themselves as those who could help when really realizing that a number of them were there because they had been mistreated not just from the abuse situation, but because uh they were their attempts at making a report or you know, disclosing the abuse were thwarted.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Yeah, I I think there's a difference between um trust and and naivete. Like we can't get so suspicious of everyone, like, well, any pastor, you know, we never know, and we can't live with that kind of like looming over us. But there's also a naive there's a naive attitude that this is just this wild hypothetical, and it just ha it it maybe it could happen, but I think we have to wrestle with it's very likely that there are abusive situations going on in our denomination right now. There's very it's very likely that these things are happening just by the sheer statistics. So uh, how do we find the balance between? I think certainly we are too naive, too trusting. You know, I know you know my thought was, oh, Ravi would never, you know, he could never he's just so how do we find that right balance between a a pr a healthy recognition that it's surprisingly easy to live a double life, we're not exempt, but then also extending trust towards one another.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

So so we need to be very intentional as Wesleyan's that we first of all do not develop theological misconceptions that become part of a structure that assures that something will happen and it will be overlooked because it can't count as sin. So we need to be very intentional that we do not build a theological structure that does not allow a um, especially those who are are at the pulpit, have a pulpit ministry and are preaching a doctrine of holiness that uh construes the Christian life in such a way that um that nothing we do can be called sin because our doctrine says that you live above sin, period. Uh not only is that not Wesleyan doctrine, that's just it's it's very bad, a bad way of thinking and understanding scripture because sin is possible. It doesn't matter if it's RZIM, it doesn't matter if it is Liberty University, it doesn't matter if it is Willow Creek or if it is you know a holiness church. Um it is possible, and uh we don't want to provide a um a shield, a theological shield uh behind which those who possess power in a ministry can hide. And there's no let me use this word uh if if our people do not have the um the plausibility structure, all right. Uh does that make sense? Does that phrase mean anything to you? By plausibility structure means something that we can perceive as being possible. It's it's it's plausible. So if people have in their mind a theology that says, well, my pastor is entirely sanctified, therefore he can't sin, then they cannot plausible, they cannot imagine how something that pastor is doing while he is continuing his ministry counting as something that's sinful.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

I'm thinking of uh somebody I know who said, you know, growing up, I would see these church leaders and they would have such bad attitudes sometimes, and they would be, you know, they'd be so nasty at times to to their spouses, or and it's like, but I know that they were entirely sanctified. So it's like that that couldn't have been that wasn't sin, right? That was just a mistake. Or, you know, I think I put on Twitter a while back something like, you know, if you are a jerk to your wife, that's a sin. Like I think that's pretty straightforward, right? You lose your temper, you you're a jerk, that's a sin. That's a that's a a wrong attitude. And so we have this idea that, well, it was a mistake, or I was grumpy, and I'm that's not really not really sinful. I'm not really it's not really culpable. And we don't repent of it. And and so is that the kind of example that you're you're thinking of? Is that relevant?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yes, yes, and then that builds then a uh or enforces uh a structure and culture in which some other explanation has to be given. Right. And man, that's a that's a really dangerous culture. Uh I'm sure, you know, and Dr. Graham you have ministered across a spectrum of of uh theological traditions. And I don't think that that uh that we are the only ones that build theological structures to to that potentially shield uh wrongdoing. Other theological traditions do this as well. But we have to be aware of our own and be willing to call it what it is and not allow those uh structures to stand because number one, they're just false, they're just wrong. Uh but secondly, they're dangerous, extremely dangerous. And this is the example that you just gave there is uh is one of many.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

So you begin to shift responsibility then, right? Where I've I've even seen these comments related specifically to the Zacharias family, right? Where where was his wife in all of this? Surely she knew what was she not you know, was she less than what he needed in uh in a companion? Uh, you know, what about these women? Why would these women put themselves in these situations where they would be corresponding with someone or meeting with someone or even traveling with someone uh you know to engage in these in these actions rather than being able to acknowledge that uh yeah, there was far more going on here than than we realized.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

So how do we overcome the structures? How do we overcome a now? Let's talk about us. So I'm gonna make reference to you know a a conservative Wesleyan holiness tradition that has uh has some weaknesses theologically uh in the in the way we present, say that you I think you mentioned Jonathan the the doctrine of entire sanctification that uh perhaps those weaknesses have been uh uh overlooked. Let's let me be charitable and say they've they've they've been overlooked. There has not been perhaps a widespread recognition, uh, or at least acknowledgement, of what that how dangerous that can be. Is that fair? Or is that or am I being too too modest?

SPEAKER_03 19:52

No, I think you're you're you're right on. And I one of the things that I've realized is that one of the reasons why there's so much sensitivity around this issue of of the definition of sin and in our you know, certain presentations or ways of presenting um entire sanctification, certain, you know, using certain language like eradication, and it's been so politicized, and it's been it's because there's this concern, at least this is supposedly the motivating concern, that for example, if we don't if we define sin as anything other than a willful transgression in the law of God, if we leave, if we we even question that, we're going to undermine holiness because then nobody can live above sin. But I want to say there's another way in which we can undermine holiness. One way if we're really serious about holiness, we can undermine holiness by failing to call something sin, which is sin. That's just as serious of a concern. So, you know, I talked to, I have a reform friend, you know, and it one of his criticisms of the holiness movement would be like would be something like, well, you know, I see, you know, you guys are calling um something a mistake or an infirmity that I think biblically it's sin, and I think he's right. And he's saying you're not serious enough about holiness. You know, that's a totally different way to look at it. But we've got to be honest about that. You know, am I saying we have to, you know, read it, you know, different, do we need a definite, different definition of said? That's not even what I'm saying. I'm just saying we need to enter these discussions, recognizing there's more than one concern here that needs to be considered. And there's consequences. There's there's many consequences for our theology, like we're talking about right now, that if we're not mature, if we're not nuanced, if we're not careful, if we're not sensitive in the way that we preach and teach, real people get hurt. Like I am so serious about theology because I love the church. And I know people get hurt by bad, simplistic theology. So I definitely think we need, yeah, we definitely need to do some serious theological work. That's one thing we can do.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So so to bring that back to uh to Ravi, I think all of that is. To say that someone who is uh in a position of authority within the uh the church, or in Ravi's case as an evangelist, or who had achieved a sort of celebrity status, someone who is uh caught up in sin will find theological reasons to justify themselves, whether they're Westland or whether they're reformed or whether there's something else, right? Because that's that's what uh victimizers especially do. Um that's what sin does, finds a way to justify themselves.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

As Jonathan said a few moments ago, right, uh having operational, uh practical biblical definitions of the terms we're talking about are important. Uh recently hearing uh an evangelist talk about victory over temptation. So, what what was meant by that? Because earlier he had talked about victory over sin. So I assumed that by victory over sin, what was trying to be conveyed is I'm no longer giving in to sin. But then victory over temptation, does that mean I'm no longer tempted? Because I think that's how some people may have interpreted it, or was it when a temptation comes, I am dealing with it in the right way? You know, I I think as many words as English has, I wish we had more. I wish that there were more ways to split those differences so we understood uh exactly what it is that people were trying to convey. Uh, I do feel I do feel as though there was a failure on an institutional level to put safeguards in place, not just for the benefit of the victim, but for the benefit of the individual as well. You know, the idea that Ravi would have his own cell phone that was not connected in any way to the ministry, that he would not allow, even when the the 2017 investigation by the board, he would not allow the cell phone to be uh analyzed by the board. I mean, that's that seems to be acknowledging that there's problematic material on the phone, and yet their decision was we don't find anything here to pursue. Uh so I I do feel as though there are systematic, uh there are organizational things that that need to happen. There needs to be a place for someone like Ravi to be able to acknowledge distress in this area. You know, I'm a I'm a clinician at heart, I'm empathic at heart. I'm wanting to say, uh, let's talk about him too. We don't I don't know much about his situation. I know he's uh you know born in India and raised in Canada. What did he go through some trauma of his own that was never really resolved and not dealt with to the point that this festered and festered, and and again, he grew up in a sort of church, church celebrity culture where he was able to get away with this, you know, have a have some empathy for him. What could we have done differently? What what systems are in place so that when a ministry leader acknowledges I am not okay, that there's that there's a place for restoration and recovery rather than uh rather than feeling like the only way forward is to continue to hide uh further and further, deeper, deeper and deeper.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Yeah, and I just want to you know clarify something I I said earlier. I think my my point here is not that you know Ravi's behavior, if we had known about it, was would be somehow questionable, that we would think that we would theologically justify that behavior. I think my point is that as we're trying to work towards a a better church culture, we're unlikely to see the red flags, and abusers are unlikely to be weeded out when our theological impulse is to justify those red flags, whether it's controlling harsh uh behavior, lack of transparency, or just otherwise spiritually abusive behavior. Because I see behavior, I see tweets, I see Facebook posts, I see things in churches and in the pulpit, and I think that's not just wrong, that's not just poorly nuanced, that's spiritually abusive behavior. I see it from pastors, conference leaders, I see it all the time, and it makes me sick. And I think we think, well, he's entirely sanctified, he could that's just, you know, maybe he made a mistake, or maybe that was an infirmity. And I think at some day, at some point, call a spade a spade. It's spiritual abuse. And I think if we aren't willing to do that, these spiritual abusers will fly under the radar. There's a whole lot of things that should have been caught with Ravi's situation.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

So part of the where do we go from here? Um, I I think that there are a number of resources that are available. And if people who are listening are part of a church board, part of a school board, part of the uh, or they're a pastor or administrator, conference leader, uh they need to be, they need to be reading uh about how problematic this is. These are not isolated instances, and what sort of systems should be put in place. You know, I think of some recent books that have come out. Um the uh the in fact, I believe it used to be free. If you go to churchcares.com, there's a handbook called Becoming a Church That Cares Well for the Abused. That is just a fantastic, uh, a fantastic resource. I think about uh Mary Demouth uh published a book a couple years ago called We Two, How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis. Uh both of these are very, very practical resources that talk about uh what to do for the victim, uh what to do for the uh the victimizer, uh, who themselves may be a victim, you know, earlier in life, and what to do as far as a culture of accountability, a culture of transparency, a culture of, you know, we are caring well for everyone. If we really understood what it meant to be created in the image of God, not just that I'm created in the image of God, but that both of you are too. Um, and so is everyone else. That will change my posture towards them, whether it's related to uh a specific issue like this or whether it's related to something else. If I am truly seeing others as created in the image of God for his glory, for the edification of his church, then I certainly cannot take up not only can I not take a posture of abuse towards someone, but I would I also would advocate for systems that identify and intervene in abusive settings.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

So let me share some of my, I guess, uh summary thoughts as well on the matter from a theological perspective. Uh by the way, I've read the uh Demouth book there you mentioned as well, the We Too, and uh second your recommendation on it. From a theological perspective, I think we have to first of all be aware that we are naturally going to be defensive of the system within which we work. And that includes that includes our theological system. We're not going to want to acknowledge um weak weaknesses in our thinking, um possible dangerous applications of our thinking. But we also need to make sure that we have room in our theology to recognize that our system's not perfect, that human reasoning isn't is is fallible and that as we in the history of theology, as we swing from one side to another and points of emphasis, that there are always dangers lurking, and uh we just have to acknowledge that at any given time it is possible that the way we have presented our theology, particularly of holiness in our case, that it has consequences, some of which will be used by people to hide sin or to justify their use of of power persuasion over others. And uh in our tradition, the notions of uh a person achieving a spiritual status in which they uh are not even tempted, that would be extreme, pretty extreme. John Wesley thought that at one time, and then he realized that that's not true. Or more commonly, that a person who is entirely sanctified uh will do no wrong, will do no no evil. Uh we have to recognize that that's uh that's neither a that's uh inferred by the doctrine of entire sanctification uh nor is it safe. And it has to be flat out rejected.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Yeah, yeah, and none of us are are calling for you know the church to be weak on sin or weak on entire sanctification. We're not trendy new evangelicals, we're fully committed Wesleans. We're just calling for more nuance, more maturity, more carefulness, more theological work because simplistic thinking hurts people, especially when it's heralded from the pulpit in a way that feeds suspicion. And we end up going on these witch hunts to weed out people that are good people and agree with us on almost everything while we're at the same time enabling spiritually abusive behavior.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Enabling spiritual abusive behavior when it's from someone from our own tribe.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Right. And I do feel, yeah, I do feel as though that's that's a factor here. That's partly why I mentioned that reformed response to him. I I don't want there to be a culture, a church culture, where we're constantly assuming, you know, we're looking with uh with concern in in the eyes of everyone. What what is it that they are hiding from me? What secret sin is embedded deep within their soul? But I do believe that we need to err on the side of belief. If someone comes forward and makes a disclosure, uh no, I'm not proposing that we change our laws to be guilty unless proven innocent.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

But it certainly demonstrates that the work of investigation needs to be done. Maybe somebody, probably, preferably somebody outside the context. Uh certainly when it's a child involved, most states, the laws are quite clear as to what the protocol is for reporting. You know, we need to listen to those who are victims. We need to hear their stories and hear, you know, to blame them for waiting a year or five years or 10 years or 40 years, um, and to use that as justification for assuming that what they're saying is is making a false claim is just uh is just hurtful, hurtful to the process. And and what has tended to happen is people who have been abused within the context of a church tend to then leave that church. And so then when they make some sort of uh disclosure about the abuse that they suffered in that church, it becomes, well, they're not one of us, they're out there, you know, they're bitter and uh these these sorts of claims, as as opposed to recognizing that part of their journey of seeking safety needed to include separating from those who victimized them and allowed them to be victimized.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

You know, I think just in closing here, um, I wonder if you could speak to somebody who could be listening that that has been victimized, um, and and maybe also to somebody who has been victimized and has tried to come forward and has been shut down, or has been blamed, or has been made to feel like it was their fault. Um how do how do we um because there's part of me that wants to encourage uh you know a victim to come out of the shadows, because I can't imagine living with the burden of knowing that you've been you've been abused and you're the only one that knows the truth. And even to see a pastor, a spiritual leader get up there and preach the word and you know the truth about them, but nobody else does, and you're you're completely alone. I can't imagine what that's like. At the same time, we talked earlier, uh, I'm scared to tell them to come forward because you know, are we how are they going to be met? I don't always I don't always have confidence that they will be met with the right response. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

So a lot of times, particularly when the when it's a context of a spiritual leader or someone known to be a spiritual person in the church, the individual, the child or the vulnerable person who is put in this situation is made to believe that this is this is their fault, right? Any shame is is placed upon you. And so I do think there's this sort of extra burden to carry. It isn't just about being violated and being victimized, it's being shamed, you know, being being made to take responsibility that wasn't theirs to take on. On top of that, I think that survivors, many that I have spoken with, it isn't just like when you're talking about uh you know the person who still remains in the pulpit, in the reason in the in the position of authority. It isn't just I know what this person did to me, but it also becomes a I don't know what this person is or is not doing. Are there other victims out there? Are there people who are being abused or being groomed for further abuse because I've not come forward? And yet, because of situations like this one, when the when when the church does not have almost a singular monolithic response of believing and and and self you know introspection and how do we change systems and how do we uh punish abusers and how do we provide support for victims, when we don't have that sort of unified voice, it really does make people feel as though I could not come forward. I could not, I'll I'll just have to shoulder this burden rather than have my my family, my extended family, my church, my denomination, my faith tradition, all of these things to come under suspicion. And so to somebody who might be listening, who who that's their story, maybe their you know, their heart is pounding in their chest as we're having this conversation, because they know that we don't know their specific story. Um, I would say to them that expressing your abuse narrative in a safe context is a significant part of beginning the healing journey. If you have a sliver or a splinter on the bottom of your foot and you've decided that it's best just to learn how to walk with a limp, let me tell you, it's not an easy process to navigate stories of abuse for a victim to walk through that. Just like it's not a fun process to have your mother dig around in your foot to get that splinter or sliver out, but when that comes out and you're able to put the healing ointment on there and put a bandage on there and not and not walk with the limp, you know, six weeks later, eight weeks later, decades later, uh, I do feel like if if somebody is listening to this, uh, they need to identify someone who can help them to express their narrative and do what needs to be done as a result. Sometimes people are afraid that making a disclosure about something that happened to them in childhood automatically triggers the legal side of things. Uh if a child makes a disclosure, that certainly is the case. But if an adult discloses what happened to them as a child, this doesn't mean they're going to have to go to court or uh, you know, police are going to be involved, those those sorts of things. It depends on on some level, it depends on what happened and the circumstance and and the context and even the jurisdiction involved. But but by and large, uh if you're an adult and you're acknowledging abuse uh from your childhood, it's not something that is a criminal matter. But being able to find someone that you can talk to and safely navigate that. And so then the responsibility, Jonathan, then becomes what am I doing? What are you doing in your context to make sure that the people who see you as a spiritual leader would say, I know that I could go to Brother Arnold and talk about something like this, and he would handle it the right way. Because I will tell you, sitting in this exact office that I'm sitting in right now, having people share a story of abuse and the tears that come when they do that, I think the tears and the emotional response increases when they talk about, and I told my parents and they didn't listen. And I told my extended family and they minimized what had happened. And I told my pastor or my youth leader or a school teacher and they did nothing. I if I had an intern, I had an intern sitting in on a session who said, and I'm getting chills while I'm telling you the story, that the person's affect changed when they talked about the story that was difficult for them to get out, but when they talked about not being believed, the level of pain was clearly more intense. And they've just even on their face, you could even tell. I turned to the people that I love and they didn't believe me, was in a sense certainly traumatic. I don't think I can say as traumatic as the sexual offense itself, but certainly it was traumatic to not be believed. And so those people, people who are in that situation, need to reach out, find somebody safe that they can talk to. And if somebody identifies you or identifies me as a safe person, we need to do the right thing. And that starts with some of these resources that have already been mentioned today.

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