Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Gut Reactions to Ravi Zacharias and Being a Safe Church
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Travis Johnson joins David Fry and Johnathan Arnold to discuss his recent article, "Ravi Zacharias and the Moral Failure of Spiritual Leaders."
Quotes from Travis:
- Victims need to know that it's safe. The church can be a safe place to come forward and share your experience so that you can get the help that you need. We in the church want to be a part of that healing process.
- We have to talk about this for the sake of transparency. People are struggling with this.
- Within the church, there are other victims of sexual abuse and they need to know we care. We need to be their voice. Many are afraid to come forward and they need to know the church can be a safe place to come forward and share your experience so you can get the help that you need.
- We need to talk about it because we learn from our mistakes. Other ministries will look at this and say, “What can we do to make sure that this doesn’t ever happen in our organization?" Churches will be learning from this, hopefully implementing changes that will strengthen their ministries.
- Our people need to hear from us that we care deeply about these issues. That we as leaders want to live lives of holiness and purity. They need to hear from us that we need their help in this area of accountability and transparency.
- If there are victims of any kind of abuse in the congregation, they need to hear our voice that we care for them, that we love them, and that we will always stand with victims.
Quotes from Fry:
- It ought to be a reminder to everyone that sin is never just about me and my private life. It always affects relationships and other people.
- As a church, we have to create a culture in which we are accountable, and have a culture and atmosphere so that if there is wrongdoing and lack of discretion, then that can be dealt with in a truthful and graceful way.
- When something comes to our attention, we have to listen to it. It doesn’t matter how impeccable someone may seem to be.
- A church should have a policy for how things are followed up. If there’s a report of any wrongdoing, there should be a procedure.
Quotes from Arnold:
- It’s important that we are theologically robust and defend the Christian faith with the best intellectual arguments. But if we are not living a life of integrity, then it doesn’t matter.
- This is something pastors should talk to their churches about.
And they need to know that it's safe. The church can be a safe place to come forward and share what your experience is so that we so that you can get the help that you need. And we want we in the church, we want to be a part of that healing process.
SPEAKER_03The voices of those who um who cry out, Lord, Lord, look at what I've done in your name. And he will say uh to them, uh, you know, depart from me. I never knew you.
SPEAKER_02You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_03Welcome, Travis Johnson. You recently wrote an article for Holy Joys uh reflecting on uh Ravi Zacharias and uh events in his life over the last many years. And so it's great to have you join us on this segment. And in this segment, we want to uh spend just a few minutes on our responses to the news on Ravi Zacharias. Let's start with you. Just what was your what was your gut reaction when you heard the news about Robbie Zacharias?
SPEAKER_04Well, I felt like I was punched in the gut. I think that would be honestly, that's how I felt. Um so for me, I don't know of a more high profile celebrity type pastor leader uh in in my lifetime that that has had this type of a fall. And so for me it was just absolute utter shock. I was just shocked. And then as the uh even more details have come out since then, just even more shock. I just I just can't it's almost unbelief that um something this horrible went on for so long and was hidden and it's just obvious it seems now that this man lived a double life. So yeah, just shock, absolute shock. My second thought is what what do I do with his books? What do I do with his ministry? How do I how do I reconcile everything that he has he has personally taught me in podcasts and YouTube videos and books and illustrations over the years? How how do I reconcile that? You know? So that that that was a huge struggle for for you know for the first few days. And then even beyond that, as I began to reflect on other ministers that had fallen, that and that's kind of where the article came from, as I looked at the bookshelf in front of me and behind me and counted, you know, 20-some books written by different authors that had had different types of fall, whether it be sexual, a sexual, moral fall, or uh issues with finances or even power issues. Um, what do we do with their resources? So that's kind of where the article uh that's kind of what stimulated me writing that article.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So that's certainly a big question. Maybe we'll come back around to that. Um what what to do with uh with his life's work. Uh Jonathan, what was your gut reaction?
SPEAKER_01I don't remember the first thought that I had. I remember a flurry of thoughts. Um one of the things was that I had taken a group of young people and young disciples uh to hear him uh only a year or two ago, uh, about an hour from our church. And he hasn't had a you know a big impact on my, you know, on my theological development. But early on, I think before I even started regularly attending church, I listened to some of his CDs. So yeah, it was definitely a shock. Um another thing I thought of was was oddly enough was Billy Graham. I just thought uh uh the Billy Graham rule, I've heard you know so much criticism of it. I think there's a general um you know reckoning with some of the abuses of purity culture, but I just thought, wow, how much I appreciate um men like Billy Graham, who, as far as we can tell, lived a life of integrity. And you know, at the end of the day, it's it's it's important that we are you know theologically robust and we're we're defending the Christian faith from with the best intellectual arguments we can produce. But if we don't have integrity and character, none of it matters. And I just I thought about my own character, my own integrity, and just my desire to you know to be faithful and to finish well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I just visited the Billy Graham Library actually this uh this week. So that was a very real thing. I don't think I had thought about him or really any sort of uh you know comparison of of lives and ministries and legacies now uh until I had gone gone through that museum and then started you know, I started realizing, whoa, you know, here's here's uh here's someone who seems to be very different from what we have found out about Ravi. So my I I think I had two reactions almost right away. Uh my my first reaction when I read that 12-page report was uh was empathy for the family. I it's just imagining or not I I can't imagine, but trying to imagine what they are left with, the broken pieces that they are left with now. And you know, kudos to RZIM for going back and uh and apologizing for not responding well in 2017, right? And uh putting out this, what I felt like was a very um humble and apologetic uh statement uh in a two or three page you know response to the report. Uh so that was number one. The second thought was uh really even more sobering, and that was that uh man, I just I I was hearing the voice of Matthew 7, uh the voices of those who um who cry out, Lord, Lord, look at what I've done in your name. And he will say uh to them, uh, you know, depart from me. I never knew you. And my thought was that you know, I'd I would never want to assume the role or try to assume the role of of saying that someone is or is not you know lost uh eternally for certain. But uh this is as close of an example that I can imagine of what what that looks like. And um and again, I'm I'm I never I was not a close follower of Ravi. Uh I did read uh probably 15 years ago, read a couple of his books, but uh so I was not a close follower, but I s I did I I'm I'm aware of his impact and very frequently we'd come across people who was like, oh yeah, you know, Ravi Zacharias you know really enjoyed this this lecture or this uh YouTube video uh by him. So I knew the impact was big. Uh I really did. And and I really for me, I think part of my reaction too was the fact that the 2017 uh you know event where, for those of you who may not know the background, so there was a lady, and I don't know all the details, but the lady who came forth with some improprieties, uh uh phone conversation and and exchange of texts and and pictures and so forth in 2017. That was denied. Uh Ravi denied that RZIM didn't even follow up with an investigation. They trusted Ravi and said there was no other evidence that this was true. And so that was I I wouldn't say it just blew over, I think it raised some doubts. And so I think um the the other thing for me was there was a a little bit of I'm not surprised, not because I doubted Ravi so much, but because there had already been kind of this lingering question out there. And so from 2017, and now it turns out it actually was true. Um so uh yeah, so there are so many dimensions about this to to talk about. It has been talked about, right? On a lot of a lot of podcasts and a lot of um a lot of articles and blog posts, and it's something we could talk about you know for quite quite some time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, can I can I just interject and and ask Travis? So like I I've seen as few people, and I think this is a really uh this is a really simplistic response. Like, well, the man is dead, why why do we want to just keep talking about this? And and and yet I do think you know there's been a plur proliferation of of writing and talking about this, and at some point we can just talk about it, talk about it. So maybe um could you comment, Travis, on how do we talk about it in a helpful way and why do we talk about it? Because we must not avoid it. We we need to be serious about truth and exposing the truth as Christians. We can't be afraid. You know, one of the statements that swirled around is Robbie Tolts, one of the one of the people he was abusing, you know, if you come forward about this, think of all the people that you are going to, you know, the souls that are going to be destroyed, you know. And so um why and how does the church talk about something like this? What are you know the things we want to avoid, but also the things that we want to do well?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a great question because you know, if you know, I think sometimes we've been accused of erring during laundry. In fact, I had a phone call from a retired pastor who kind of chewed me out and said, Why why are we talking about why do we have to talk about this? Why, why, why? And and uh, you know, I pressed him, have you read my article? Have you read the reports? He just refuses to read anything about it. Um, but I think we have to talk about this uh for for a number of reasons, but I think a couple come to mind. One, uh, just for the sake of transparency, um, we we have to we have to talk about it. People are talking about it, so we might as well join the fray. We might as well uh be a part of the conversation so that we could help people that are struggling, because people are struggling with this. I don't know how many how many messages, texts, emails I've received from the article uh from people who are have just really struggled with this. He was high profile, and and for many people um they're they're they're just they're caught in the wake of this. What do we do? What do we do? And so I think it's important for us to talk about it to be transparent. But secondly, I think I think within the church, there's there's other victims of sexual abuse from other people. Um they they need to they need to know we care. We need to be we need to be their voice. Um many of them are afraid to come forward, uh, and they need to know that it's safe. The church can be a safe place to come forward and share what your experience is so that we so that you can get the help that you need. And and and we want we in the church, we want to be a part of that healing process.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I appreciate that emphasis on giving people a voice because there's often been things that I've written or published, and I don't post a lot on social media, but when sometimes, even on social media, I've posted, and my only real motivation is I have had people come to me who feel like they have no public voice, they have no public representation, even on things like you know, related to some some uh church and state issues or you know, crazy stuff like the mask issues, when there's just a flurry of voices, people they respect saying things that they just it just it's hurtful, they need somebody to speak for them. And I think this is especially true for those people who are in the shadows that aren't just feeling disillusioned, but have genuinely been abused. And wow, if the if somebody doesn't give them a voice of reason and of of compassion and of gentleness, you know, who's going to do it? And I think that is something that as pastors, we that's one way in which we shepherd uh is by by voicing some of these things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And and I appreciate the CT, uh, Christianity today that they have uh several times mentioned, you know, this is not just a circumstance of someone you know living an adulterous life. That's serious, that's big in itself, but this is also one, this is also someone who has been victimizing others for years. And so that there's another dimension to this. And it should ought to be a reminder to uh to anyone, uh to all of us, that uh you know, sin is never just about you know me and my private life. Uh it always affects relationships and always reflect ref affects other people. And uh especially sins of this nature, uh, if left unchecked, will only harm more and more people. Um and as a church, we have to to create a culture in which these things are uh in which we are accountable as pastors, number one, as people who are in positions of authority, and we have to be checked on that and held accountable, and also have a culture and an atmosphere where uh if there is wrongdoing and lack of discretion, that that can be dealt with in a truthful and gracious way. Um Jonathan, you have been doing some research as well, and uh you have come across some things I think are worth sharing. Uh go ahead and get uh get us started with uh sharing some things, and then we'll get uh some reactions here from from Travis. We'll each uh react to to what you found.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I've been reflecting on a really poignant post from Rachel Denhollander, and she uh I believe has been brought in by RZIM. She's a victim advocate, was a victim herself of abuse. And this is something she said, and I wonder how do we think through this? For every leader who has written a blog post, tweeted, commented on the steps being taken by RZIM, how good they are, how important the truth is, or how to prevent this, please hear the grief you are compounding. You have written about how god, how good and right these steps are, I think that's a mistake interpose, how good and right these steps are, but not until they were already taken, not until the facade was removed. You did not lift your voice to cry for the truth you now applaud. That fell on the shoulders of the victims, the women. You applaud the independent investigation, but never press for it when it needed to be done. When your voice was desperately needed in 2017 and all the years that followed, you were silent. You left the victims alone. Your silence, a deafening testament that you did not care. And he goes on, she goes on and on here, very similar lines. So here's the thing, I'm wrestling with this because uh I did not know about the 2017 incident, but I do feel some guilt because I did have somebody come to me uh when um when somebody referenced Ravi in the past and and uh said, they said to me, you know, here's some stuff I've come across. I really don't trust Ravi. I I don't I think you know these accusations were true. And I I did. I didn't take it very seriously. I so I'm struggling with how much responsibility do we have to be our brother's keeper in this matter? Because on the one hand, I can't be responsible for every Christian in the church, and I can't just jump on any news piece that comes, and I can't even keep up with all of this. So, to what degree am are we responsible? How do we work through that? What do you think of Rachel's thoughts there?
SPEAKER_04Sure, yeah. I mean, you know, hindsight's always 2020, and and looking back, the ministry, uh his denomination he was a part of, Robbie's that is, everyone could have done a better job of uh taking serious uh some some past allegations. Um so I I think she has a point. She makes a good point. But um, you know, for me personally, um you know, when the allegations came out in 17, I remember that. I remember reading a little bit about it, but uh I I heard that there was a payout or some payment made to and so I'm thinking, oh okay, it's extortion, somebody wants money. Because in my mind, I'm still thinking Robbie's about this. You know, there's no way this is this is Robbie's Acharias, you know. Um so in my mind, I'm thinking there's no way this is this is happening. Looking back now, uh, you know, I wish now I would have maybe looked into it more deeply. Um But really, I think the fault the fault lies really with his ministry organization and certainly with his denomination, who my understanding the denomination didn't even do any investigation at all in 17.
SPEAKER_03Right. If I'm not mistaken. Yeah, they apologized for that. That was part of their their more recent apology for sure. So I think that the point I would use is that Rachel, uh Dan Hollander, yeah. I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly, yeah. Yeah, so I I think she she makes a great point. I would I mean that's a that's pretty straight talk to the church. Yeah, it is, it is. It's hard to take. Yeah, yeah, but I think I would also say, though, um, does she acknowledge that you know there is maybe not prevailing, but there is a growing uh sensitivity to these things. You know, the the we two movement really, really raised a lot of awareness, and it really begins with awareness.
SPEAKER_00And church too, right? There was a church to then that came followed that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So so there is, and and I have, as a pastor, even in recent days, have had a couple of examples of this, uh, where you know my wife and I met with a couple of different people who uh shared some things. And I would have to say that you know, my reaction then it was probably you know, now is probably different than my reaction would have been even five years ago. Um, because you know, probably in the past I would have said, okay, I need some, I need some facts, I need some hard evidence, you know, to to prove that what you're saying, you know, you're this is a serious accusation. Now I I want to say, okay, I want to, I want to hear, I need to listen, I'm gonna, I'm going to take this seriously. And yes, assume that you're telling me the truth. Yes, we still need facts, yes, we still need some investigation to to sort out how to proceed from here. Um, but um yeah, I think awareness is so important. Um we have to be aware, and when something comes to our attention, it doesn't matter how impeccable a person may seem to be. We've got to we've got to pay attention to it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I and this goes back to something we've talked about previously. This is the reason we need to talk about it, because we learn from our mistakes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And so for me, um ministries, not just not just uh Robbie's ministry, what whatever shape that's gonna take in the future, but I think other ministries, parachurch organizations, churches, they're gonna look at this and they're gonna say, okay, what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen or ever happen in our organization? And so churches will be learning from this, hopefully implementing changes that will strengthen their ministries.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. So what can a pastor take away from this? Because ultimately the reason this is worth discussing is because it it gets close to home. It really hits hope close to home to many of our people, right? Uh it many people had you know felt that punch in the gut when this report came out, uh Travis, as you mentioned last time. Um, but what does it how does it change us? How does it change our church culture now?
SPEAKER_01Any ideas on that? I'd I'd like Travis to respond, but I'd like to just tag on to that. Also, this is something pastors should talk to their churches about. I think it's a very good idea when such a hope high-profile figure, something like this happens, to make a statement from the pulpit. And I've heard pastors said, uh, this is the kind of thing I talk to people about privately. I wouldn't want to say anything from the pulpit. I think that's a wrong impulse. I think that's a mistake. Yeah. So I'd like Travis's thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_04No, that that's that's a good that's a good thought. I I have not shared this publicly with my congregation yet. I I have shared my article with them, and many of them have read it. But uh I I really want to wait till the full report came out, which now it's out, and so now would be a good time to talk about it. But yeah, because because our our people need to hear from us uh that we care deeply about these issues, that we as leaders, we want to we want to live, you know, lives of of holiness and purity, and they need to hear from us that, hey, we need your help. I need your help in this area, and you know, accountability, transparency, but also you know, if there's victims of any kind of abuse um in the congregation, they need to hear our voice that we care for them and we love them, and that we will always stand with victims.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So there may be it may be a good idea for a church to have uh a policy for how things are followed up. So if there's a report of some some abuse or wrongdoing or or um anything inappropriate, uh there's there should be a procedure that a church can adopt on how to follow up with that. Because I think that's where things get lost, right? It's one thing to be aware, but then it's another thing, then suddenly a pastor or or a leader is faced with what do I do with this information? And I I think that needs to be considered as well. And I know we have as a school, the school that I administer uh administrate, we're we're required by law to have policy and procedure on how to follow up with reported abuse and and bullying and different uh different offenses. And and we have that. And not only are we are we required to have it, but we are also required to review it every year with all the staff. And and we do. And I think this this has made me more aware that we probably ought to have that for the church as well.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys Podcast. Email your questions to podcast at holyjoys.org, and they may be featured on a future episode. Our labors for a holy happy church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
