Lil Nas X, Cultural Art, and Human Depravity: Responding with Grace and Truth

In this episode, David Fry and Johnathan Arnold discuss a recent piece of cultural art and how the church can respond.

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SPEAKER_02 0:01

There's a whole movement of unchurched Christians, right? But that's an oxymoron. That is that is that's a problem. And you show your hate for Christ by hating his body, the church.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Church has to be a safe place where people can be honest and transparent.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice. All for a holy, happy church.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

All right, well, we're back together to discuss a current event that's been trending now for some time. One of our previous discussions on the pastor's theologian. We talked about how a pastor's theologian stands between scripture and culture. And we try to bring God's truth to bear on what the church is facing in its daily life. And with social media, uh with just with media in general, the accessibility of it, people are faced with uh a lot of cultural uh you know events that perhaps in the past uh was not so so readily accessible. And so it's just, I think, really important for us to be offering theologically informed uh responses to some of the things that people are inevitably going to come across um when they get on Facebook. Because otherwise, um if they don't see good theologically informed uh thinking modeled for them, they're gonna end up responding and thinking through these things in in less than Christian ways. So why don't you just talk about this whole controversy surrounding little Nas X, how this came to your attention, uh, and why you think it's important for us to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Sure. And I want to give a cov caveat at the outset here to uh just let people know that in no way do we uh recommend that people even go and watch this YouTube video that was released on March 26th. Uh, the only reason I did and I wouldn't have otherwise uh is because I had a young uh man ask me about it and wanted to know what I thought. And since it was apparent that I have you know young people within my ministry who are familiar and and follow uh pulp culture and uh little noz, that uh I probably ought to be aware of what's happening and offer some some guidance. And so uh only under that uh guise uh did I uh watch this. And I can tell you right now, it was one of the most horrendous things I've I would probably the most horrendous thing I've ever seen. It was that shocking, uh that bleak. And uh, but but it is after after I started doing some reading, it is perhaps the most significant piece of cultural art uh since uh oh I've I've seen some people refer back to uh a music video uh by uh the the uh heavy metal uh band Kiss. Um I think there was another uh probably sexually charged video, I think by Madonna, probably back in the 90s. I don't know, I've never seen those, but people were referring back to those and saying, you know, this is this is the most significant piece of of cultural art since those those music uh videos were released. So the the backstory is this uh 21-year-old Montero Lamar Hill, uh popularly known as Little Nas X, and well known for his 2019 hit Old Town Road. Uh 19 months in a row, I believe it was number one uh in on the charts. Uh but he has released a another music video again on March 26th, uh, that is um a new song, a new new uh really takes um takes it to another level. But it's called Montero, call me by your name. And it's a it's a video made with um CGI, so computer generated imagery that depicts uh a movement through the video beginning with Little Nas uh in uh the Garden of Eden. Uh you would recognize it as the Garden of Eden, has some writing on the tree. There's a the the serpent is there uh tempting him. Um he he follows the serpent. It moves then to some sort of Coliseum uh scene, and then finally uh he descends into hell via a stripper's pole. And uh the whole thing is is very foul-mouthed, very uh sensual, sexually charged, um that the the language is and uh the uh the depictions. It's it's all CGI and there there is um uh it's there's nothing that is apparently human in the uh in the video. So it's it's it is it's pornographic in theme, but not uh so much in as far as you know portraying uh you know humans. Um in fact, Lil Nas himself is a sort of ungendered sort of being. He's like an uh a nondescript sort of human being. And uh so so simultaneous to this video, he also Lil Nas released a line of shoes, 666 pairs of Nike shoes that have been customized by a third-party company, uh laced with um or on the laces, are um uh a pentagram is attached to laces with Luke 1018, the scripture that Jesus says that he he witnessed uh the the fall of Satan uh from heaven. Um it is said that there is a drop, a single drop of human blood in every one of the souls of these 666. Uh media accounts say that uh the company sold all the pairs almost immediately. Uh within hours, they were sold out. Um since then, over 75 million people have watched this video, um, including a lot of children, because he appeals to children. He he holds special events uh for children, so that makes it even more grotesque. Uh, Nike just uh actually they they filed suit and they won uh their suit against the company. Um the company is no longer allowed to sell those shoes. Um those uh the shoes that have been modified uh against Nike's you know wishes. Uh so they did win that case. But in any case, the the video is uh quite despicable and it ends with an interaction, a sexual interaction between Little Nas and Satan. Uh Little Nas then uh murders Satan and takes his horns and places it on himself, and and that's the the end. The reason this is significant is because uh it does use CGI, and so there's there's a lot of depths to the the video, a lot of references to scripture, to classic Greek philosophy, to other uh cultural, culturally important um symbols and and sayings throughout the video that are uh very subtle, but the people who the critics have have really praised it for being so in-depth, uh so thoroughly uh researched and and well put together and that sort of thing. So from a uh art standpoint, yeah, it's I thought it was despicable, uh, but it touches on and draws from a lot of a lot of sources. The other thing is just Lil Nas himself. He's young, he's black, he's gay, he is a cross between country and rap. So it's like who who is this guy or who isn't he? And so there's a lot of intersectionality happening here that draws a lot of attention. Um he he has been uh well the initially the uh responses, a lot of a lot of responses from from Christians, from conservatives, a lot of backlash, which he he took uh in stride and responded to. And one tweet in particular really caught my mind, uh my eye because I think it it began my theological reflection. Uh, he tweeted early on, I'm not sure what the date is on this tweet, but he said, I spent my entire teenage years hating myself because of this, and then he uses a word, uh, this stuff that you all preached would happen to me because I was gay. So I hope you are mad, stay mad, feel the same anger you teach us to have toward ourselves. And there's a lot of that's there's a lot of biographical depth there that I I want to talk about here in just a second. But um, so so his tweet um has been taken as a uh slight on the church. Um I don't know his background, but apparently he's had he has some um exposure, at least as a child uh and young young person with with church. And people have taken his reference as you know, you all preached, uh whatever it was he heard as a reference to what he actually uh uh experienced as a young person. Um the video begins with with with this. This is how he begins. He says, in uh the lyrics, uh, in life we had the parts we don't want the world to see. We lock them away, we tell them no, we banish them, but here we don't. And by here he means the descent from Eden to Hell. And the portrayal is that hell is a place where you can be yourself free of people preaching at you. So how how how should Christians think about this? Well, first of all, I want to tell parents um you know that the previous song, you know, Old Town Road, uh, which was uh we did not allow our our kids to um you know to play that song uh because it did have uh some some references in it. But I bet there's a radio version or there are different versions of it, and a lot of kids were really taken in with that song. And so they they have the kind of an affinity for this guy uh because of that song. So, first of all, I'd tell pastors' parents, you gotta know what your kids are listening to. Look at their playlist. Uh, you gotta know who these people are and uh offer some guidance and uh let them know that yeah, this is they they know that this is not okay, but uh reflect with them rather than just say, you know, why do you have that? I'm so disappointed. Don't say that. Say, hey, let's reflect on this, let's talk about this. What what's appealing about this music? What what do you find uh appealing to this guy? What do you what do you think about his life? What do you think about his art? What do you think about his music? Um and have conversations about it. I think that's important, which is why you know when a young person came to me uh was my response. And and I think we need to be very patient, but also thoughtful and truthful about uh the way we react to these things. So I have a kind and I I don't assume that you have watched the video, Jonathan. No, I haven't. Okay, but I have this really three points here just to cover uh in in reflection. And and one is this it has to do with the church, and I think this was the first thing that struck me as when I finished the video, and I thought, wow, there's so much hate and anger and in your face uh uh just uh filth. And I thought, you know what? Here's a here's a young man who clearly hates the church, he hates something about his background and what he heard. And I again I don't know what his experience was, but whatever it was, he hates it. Um and so this thought came to mind, you know what, you cannot love Christ without loving the church. On the other hand, one shows their hate for Christ in their hate for the church. And there have been Christian artists, I think of I I don't remember his name, but the lead singer for Cademan's Call back in the day, that was probably when I was a teenager. But um I remember him saying, Um I I like Christ, but I don't like his church. And he became one of the, and there's a whole movement of unchurched Christians, right? Well, that's an oxymoron. That is that is that's a problem. And you show your hate for Christ by hating his body, the church. That's my first point.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, can I just interject there, maybe? Um so I was just thinking, I uh since we don't know his background, I do think uh unfortunately, and you shared something uh along these lines earlier this week. Uh I do think unfortunately, sometimes people's experience of the church um is is so um distorted. Uh perhaps perhaps the people they've encountered who are naming themselves as identifying as Christians or identifying as a church maybe aren't even a true church uh, you know, by God's standards. And in that case, it's just it's just so tragic. And sometimes we have to untangle, I think two, sometimes it's it's it's complex because um people aren't really reacting against a faithful representation of Christianity. Now, that's not to say that faithful Christianity is not um sometimes offensive or divisive, or you know, Jesus said, I can't bring a sword, you know, certainly. Uh, and so I think there are people who genuinely have hatred of the real church and the real Christ. It's just so unfortunate, though, that's that sometimes people have not really had an opportunity to meet the real Jesus and have a chance to really um you know encounter him through his through his his real body. And so that's a that's a tragedy too.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

It is, and and we ought to also recognize that the church is not without any faults. Right. That we uh the church has not yet uh been finally purified. Uh it is we do believe in in in purity, but as Augustine said, Um and many of the earlier church fathers who who said, you know, you can't be uh there is no salvation outside of the church, but everyone who's in the church is not necessarily a true believer. And uh so there is, I mean, the church, as Larry Smith, you know, my church history teacher back at God's Bible school would always say, um, the church is a mixed bag, and it is, and it will be until Christ you know restores it um finally. But uh that is but nonetheless, our relation to the church uh says much about our relation to to Christ. And those those two things cannot be divorced. So in this case, it was the just the the abject hatred toward toward the church. Uh the second thing is uh that uh and I struggle with this one, but there are some cultural issues that we need to address straight on, head on, just really just hit it. But then there are others that need a different approach, uh, not necessarily ignoring, although I think there's a lot of things that we just need to ignore. Uh, but sometimes there needs to be an internal discussion that reflects upon a cultural event. But then sometimes there needs to be perhaps first an external, uh, that means Christians engaged with non-Christians on a matter. Uh, but certainly I think there it needs to start in-house as well. That Christians need to be in discussion with one another on these sorts of things. And these these things are uh you know regularly happening, cultural events happening, and we need to be in discussion with about that. Uh and and yeah, at the same time, not uh um express a knee-jerk reaction on Twitter or Instagram or social media, um and uh uh before we've really engaged in conversation about what exactly does this mean, what does this tell us about ourselves as a culture? So that was my second thought. And then third, um it raises again that uh the church uh is in a uh very sensitive time of history in which we uh cannot ignore but must appropriately address issues of sexual orientation and gender identity within the church. That we must again uh be sure that we clearly distinguish between accepting a person as a person and uh rather than or as distinguished from affirming a person according to their choice of you know identity uh or their sexual orientation. Um those are two different things, accepting versus affirming, and we need to be very clear about that, and then also uh understand then how we as ministers and as Christians can uh minister and provide support in a spiritual way to those who are confused or face some uh dysphoria regarding their sexual orientation or gender identity. Uh, these are real matters that uh I have faced many times as a pastor, and undoubtedly many of our listeners have as well, either as a pastor or just as a friend sometimes. And so this is an ongoing conversation. I don't have easy answers. Maybe sometime we'll do a podcast and have someone on uh who uh you know can can help us process through that. But I just want to say uh to parents and pastors and ministers, um continue to process, do some reading, good reading uh from any number of good evangelical authors, and uh and understand the different perspectives that there are disagreements even among evangelicals as to exactly how to approach uh some of these issues. So um a lot of a very complicated uh set of issues that that this brings up, but it's uh it has uh certainly gained a lot of uh of attention in the recent weeks.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah, I you know, one of the things that stood out to me is is Little Nas's whole message seems to be about just living out you know who you are, and by that he means what you feel. Um even in Old Town Road, you know, the the refrain is can't nobody tell me nothing, you can't tell me nothing. Um, you know, and then again in this um, you know, in this this music video, a lot of emphasis on just uh being who you are, which again means whatever you feel. And um one of the things that we we certainly as a church, we we prophetically rebuke um the living out of an identity which goes against nature, against God and nature. Uh we certainly, you know, there's a place for that prophetic review rebuke for something that is so reprehensible. Um, but we also have to realize that that um there are people who maybe are struggling with certain feelings and they don't know what to do with them. Um and the church has to be a safe place where people can be honest and transparent about what they're feeling and struggling with so that they um can be met with a compassionate and biblical path toward to working through those feelings and finding ways to express um you know what is what is appropriate and to find them find their identity grounded in Christ. And so what I think happens is if if the church is not that kind of a safe place and we we rely on simplistic um answers to work through some of these complicated problems, then people suffer silently, they suffer alone, they suppress any any of these feelings, they never get help uh for maybe their brokenness and they don't find healing. And then they they sometimes maybe they just walk away and we wonder what happened, or they come out and you know, we think, oh, well, this is just them deciding to reject Christ. But perhaps if we had provided a place for them to work through this and and have a safe place to work through the struggles that they were facing, we could have helped uh meet them with the good news of the gospel and helped them to work through this in community, in Christian community, because we need that support. And um, and that's what you know, we hear all the time about the LGBT community, and we just can't forget the power of that community. Um, the power of saying to someone who's experiencing these feelings or this confusion, um, you know, here's a place where you can, you know, be part of something. Just the fact of that community is unbelievably powerful. And the church has to be the kind of community where people can find a Christ-honoring response to these very complicated issues.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Right, right. And I and I have one more thought as well, and in response to this sort of thing. And that is, and this is a message to Christians, to ourselves, that we we should not be surprised at the level of depravity that takes place in popular art and culture. Uh you know, these sorts of things have happened for years. It's just now we have the media where these things can be disseminated very quickly and very broadly, and you know, over a matter of days, 75 million people can see it, right? Um and it gains a lot of current, it gains currency very, very quickly. But as Christians, uh, you know, so A, we should not be surprised at the depths of sin and then the uh the gross forms that it takes. Um secondly, we should be calculated in our response, especially when we are are when it's closer to home and we're dealing with a family member or someone in our church or someone in our our community that has done something that really astonishes us by the pravity of it. But we have to be very careful in our responses that our uh even our expressions in our face uh communicate uh the sort of uh rejection and disapproval that the people that people are are fearful of. Um and it doesn't mean that we have that we that we approve, it doesn't mean that we are okay, but as Christians, we want to offer a a place where people can can speak, can come and be heard, and that they know they're going to in response receive, first of all, grace, but they're also going to receive truth. And those two always have to be wedded, grace and truth, grace and truth, not one without the other, not truth without grace, and certainly not grace without truth. Um, but uh our our responses sometimes we don't even recognize, see ourselves. Our responses, either through our words or through our expressions, uh, can be very ungracious while the words from our mouth are true. And um, you know, the tones in which we say things, the manner in which we say them really does matter. And so uh, you know, don't be surprised at the depths of depravity, uh, but let's try to face the face the depravity of our world with a with the confidence of grace and the confidence of truth because that's what the church that's why the church is here. Uh we are here to uh not shy away from the darkness, but to pierce the darkness with the help of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

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