Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Board Culture and Church Government
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, Clair Sams joins David Fry and Johnathan Arnold to discuss board culture and church government.
I will ask personally for a board member who I know is usually quiet to give us their input. And what I have found is usually that's val that's valuable. For one reason or another, they're not comfortable just talking out.
SPEAKER_01And whatever the issue is that we are grappling with as a board and as a church, we must be grappling with those things in love.
SPEAKER_02You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Frye. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_03It's good to sit down with Claire Sam today and talk a little bit about board culture. I'm just gonna let Dr. Fry go ahead and introduce the topic and why it is that uh we've turned that direction here today.
SPEAKER_01Uh thanks, Jonathan. Uh it's great to have my former conference president, uh Claire Sam, uh, formerly of the Heartland Conference of the Bible Methodist Connection of Churches, uh now with the Southwest Conference. I've moved away a little farther. Uh but thank you for joining us. And actually, just today uh you gave a wonderful presentation on board culture. And uh we you actually had to leave to make another recording uh right after that, so we didn't have time for for QA uh with you. So uh that's kind of why we're here uh now to do some QA. I think this is a very important topic for pastors. So uh thank you for joining us, uh Brother Sam's. And uh let me just ask you this general question. Uh, why is this discussion on board culture so important for today?
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, thank you for allowing me to be part of this, and and uh for you and Jonathan both, thank you for your vision and and uh what this podcast is doing for the larger body of Christ. I appreciate that. Um from my point of view, the reason board culture matters is because it's it's first of all, it's the operating board under which most of our organizations work. And when I use the term board, what I mean by that is the the uh the body that gives direction to and and offers uh oversight for the organization that it's part of. And uh in most of our cultures, boards are the are the primary um community of believers that are responsible for a particular organization, for instance, for a local church. So it it really matters what they think and how they operate uh in regard to how that fleshes out in the uh ongoing ministry of a church.
SPEAKER_01So how would how would you describe uh the culture in most uh church boards? Uh what are some of the uh common characteristics that um are probably experienced by many many churches and pastors?
SPEAKER_00Well, I want to be careful here because I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to reflect on people who may not understand all of where I'm coming from, but often what I have found is people who are serving on boards are there simply because they've been elected. And they haven't had, and this sounds a little bit like an indictment, and I don't mean it that way, but they haven't had an opportunity to be trained in the responsibilities and and uh operations of the organization they're part of. They may know the organization in the sense of some degree of understanding how it operates, but to understand particularly how they fit that and how that works in the in the larger church community, often there's no training there. And so the result of that briefly is often uh board members who are frustrated. That's what that's one of the responses I see. They're frustrated because they're not sure what they're supposed to be doing. Uh, or board members who are either disconnected because they don't understand their responsibilities, or they're overconnected in the sense that they they're going to take control of the organization as an individual as a part as opposed to being part of the larger body of operating people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I have experienced uh have heard board members that who have told me that they see their role as being in a sort of democratic culture in which they are elected to be representatives for some sector of the congregation. And that seems really problematic uh to me because then uh I think it begins to break down uh a point you made uh earlier in your session, the integrity of the board, uh, when each board member sees themselves as a representative for some particular segment of their congregation. Uh would you concur with that? And what what what do you what are your thoughts on that mentality of a board member?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I think you're right, in the sense that often board members see themselves in that regard. Um, and they may there may be some validity in that in the sense that uh the you know the congregation or the organization they're part of may appoint them or or elect them for to represent a particular community. I th I think the problem though is if if people don't understand that they're that they have a they they need to understand that they have a loyalty to the organization larger than their own uh desires. In other words, it's it's Christ's kingdom, and and uh there's a hierarchy in the organizational structure that has value, and if they understand that they're part of a team, then they come to that, they still will carry some of the responsibilities they have to voice their opinion and to work on decision making, but their loyalty then would be to the team as opposed to to some individual uh area of responsibility.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great point. So I had an experience uh you know over the last I would say probably five years, in which I realized that I had done a pretty good job of building a team among the pastors and the staff, but had not done a lot of team building with the board, and uh felt you know convicted that I needed to give attention to that. Uh so that's a real danger, especially if there's a a if a pastor has a uh a pastoral staff, uh I think we need to be aware of the danger of building a team that consists of just the pastors and then seeing the board as perhaps the opponents, the the opposing team, because that can happen pretty quickly, right? Yeah, yes. How do we go about uh creating that that team mentality uh that includes both the pastors and as I like to call them, uh, the board of directors, because that's really what they are, uh direction setters. Uh yeah, that's just you know, I'm just one of many direction setters in in my congregation. Uh, I'm not the direction setter. Uh, how do you how do we go about building that team?
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, I I think it starts with a clear understanding of who we are in Christ. We we must not forget that. We must not just focus on the organization and leave the Christ-centered focus of of all that we're doing. So I think that's valuable for for people to understand that as members of the board of directors, if you want to use that term, and that's fine, um, they are not just taking care of the business of the church, they're also a part of this the spiritual climate of that congregation. So if they're elected to a position, an office or a position on the board, the the the they they ought to understand, either by training or innately, but they ought to understand that part of the responsibility is spiritual. To build a team, then I think that's it. The bulk of that rests on probably the senior pastor, in the sense of understanding, helping the people to understand that their business there is to help oversee the finances and some of those things. But it's also it's also to build the climate that makes that congregation stronger because because the vision is is accepted by the entire congregation, you know, the people in leadership. So part of it is of leading with vision. So and if I'm just rattling on here, stop me and it will come back, but there has to be a clear set vision. I think there has to be some sense of what mission looks like, and that needs to be that needs to be you need the leader needs to invest that in the board as well as the pastoral team. So if you're working with a team, the team needs to be on board with that 100%. But the but the board has to have some sense of that as well. Um so teaching teaching them that and and helping investing in them so that they understand here's where we're going and here's what we're doing, that takes time. A significant part of a of a well-operating uh organization in a sense of board and leadership is is how much trust there is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There there's a lot of theology here as well. Um because really the the foundations of what we're talking about are grounded in uh or found in our understanding of what it means to be the church. And I know Jonathan, you've done a lot of reflection as well on ecclesiology we have together. And I think this whole discussion fits into the ecclesial idea that uh the pastor is one who lives and ministers in community with others, and that that board, uh that those overseers, elders, whatever a church may call them, they are also called by God to a particular task of which the pastor is is part of that team of of overseers, right? Uh Jonathan, what what insights do you have here to bring from a theological perspective? What do you see here being a um an ecclesial impact on this dynamic of the pastor and the board?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's it's a challenging subject because as I look at a lot of um a lot of churches that I that I'm familiar with, and even in probably in especially in evangelical churches, even more than mainline churches and higher church traditions, um, we kind of have a model of church government that's kind of an amalgamation of a lot of different uh some kind of like church practices mixed in with some maybe like American business model practices. And so we we have to start where we're at. Um, but I think uh in these discussions, I'm always wanting to think about where we want to end up. Um we can get so caught on trying to meet the needs and the challenges right now that as we've talked about before, we allow our present circumstances and challenges to guide our um where we place our energy rather than being theologically informed. So um, you know, my goal would be to lead a church um towards a situation in which there is no difference between uh a board, as we're talking about, and an elder board. Uh, you know, churches, I think, New Testament churches are governed by a plurality of elders, um, more than one. We see that again and again in the pastoral epistles. And so um I think uh part of the challenge that we've that we've created is we have a separation between the pastoral team, the people who are really living, breathing the ministry, uh, its burdens, carrying people in their hearts. And then we kind of have this other board, this other thing of maybe some mature members uh in our congregation who get together once in a while to suddenly address these issues. And uh I think as Brother Sam's mentioned, they're often not trained, they're not qualified, um, and maybe aren't being held to the standards uh that elders are supposed to be held to. Whereas I see the the people who are primarily responsible for direction and governance um being the people who are held to all of those qualifications in Timothy and Titus. And so, so when you have a your your one board governing the church, um, I think that that that and those being the men who've invested their lives into um, you know, discipleship and teaching and preaching as their primary responsibilities, um it is a much healthier context. So how we get from where we're at to there is is really where what I've done most of my thinking on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I'm interested in in uh Sam's response to the two sources from which we're drawing from. Uh, we should primarily be drawing from our theological foundations for what it means to be the church and how to operate as a church. Obviously, that means from scripture, from from tradition, uh, from all of the uh the resources of theology. But then there's also some the churches always had this going all the way back to uh the early church. The churches always had some similarity with well, I should let me not say always, uh, the early church had some similarities with the uh civil structure or the governmental structure of the Roman Empire during that era, and that included some form of uh Republican government, which is why Constantine was able to have you know the the call the Council of Nicaea in 325, uh, because there are similarities between how the Roman uh government worked and how the church government worked, and so he he saw that, he pulled that together, and uh you know the results are one of the results is is the Nicene Creed. So, Brother Sam's you mentioned this morning that we draw from the business world, we do draw principles there. Um can you comment on what it is we draw we can draw without substituting that for who we are as the church because we are similar but we are distinct.
SPEAKER_00I think one of the things we haven't done well is uh among a few others is we haven't we haven't done a good job teaching the uh the theology of church. So part of the product of what we're wrestling with as far as how, for instance, a board of directors operates, uh some of the what some of the the lack there is people understand the theology of the church in a sense of what it is and what it means to be part of the body of Christ in a local setting, a congregation of people. Um and I I think in in the circles I run in, we're we're probably doing a little better job at that at in some ways than we have in the past. But um that's important, that's really important to have some idea of that, and and it's incumbent on people in leadership to start teaching some of that. The other side of all of that is and and sort of the business model or government model that that the church what I've watched in church history, and I'm not a a church historian, but I've but I've read quite a bit of church history, the church has been able to adapt to the cultures that it's part of.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think what you're saying is that the church has always been able to draw upon uh cultural norms that fit within its uh its its uh God-ordained structures. Uh you know, so there is there is actually you know some measure extensive you know instruction regarding um obviously eldership, all the way down to qualifications for who these leaders are, which there probably ought to be a lot of training on that. I think uh probably I know I think both of you have done some work on that. And uh so it really starts there, right? Understanding who we are just as elders and then what it means for us to be elders together, uh working together as a team and working together to uh to find the mind of Christ, which I come back to that frequently with our own board, church board, uh, to remind ourselves that the our first responsibility to our congregation is to find the mind of Christ, to discern, primarily through prayer, and then secondly uh through corporate discussion and conversation, uh at times even dissension, uh, to find the mind of Christ that is appropriate for this local church. Uh what what would you add to that or what would you have to say about that?
SPEAKER_00No, I agree with that. I I do, I fully agree with that. One of the beauties I've watched in leadership and myself is I have more than one time come into the to the a business meeting, you know, the board meeting or whatever that I'm a part of, and as the leader felt like I knew this is where we should go, you know, and spent time praying and seeking the Lord, and and felt like here's some direction that we should give, and give that to a board of men that I respect, have deep respect for, and have them say, wait a minute, you you're not seeing this and you're not seeing that. And over the over a period of time, watch the Lord use the counsel of those godly men around me to help balance who I am. And and I I think that's part of what the Lord's doing when He in the New Testament, when it raises up elders in the local church or deacons, but people who have positions of responsibility, together they become a stronger body than one person can be by himself. One of the things I talked to the guys about today is it's it's incumbent on all of us, particularly those of us who sit in some kind of principal position of leadership, to know our weaknesses and to know our strengths, and to bring alongside us the people that can help augment them. You know, it'd help put a check on our on our strengths so we're not abusing people with that, and to augment or strengthen who we are in the areas where we're where we have weaknesses. And I think that's part of what the Lord's doing when He puts together uh a group of people that help give direction to a to a congregation or to a larger organization.
SPEAKER_01So we've touched on several points that I actually have questions on. Um and so let me just throw out a question you answer, then I'll throw out the next one. All right. So we'll do some quick hits here uh because I think these are all I think they'll be helpful to uh pastors and board members who listen to uh this podcast. And uh let me start with this one. What should a pastor do, and how should a pastor lead who does not have what we may call the gift of organized administration? In other words, they are not particularly gifted with organization, but they are the pastor, and so they have to fulfill some role of administration.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh from my point of view, he that person, that pastor needs somebody on his team who has organizational strength. And they need to sit down together and talk about that and then let him share because a lot of great leaders are. Incredible visionaries, but they but they don't have the strength of organizational, you know, building an organizational structure or even allowing that organization to move forward on those visions.
SPEAKER_01But if you can bring somebody alongside that will help with that, am I on the right track or do you do you mean as uh like as a as a pastoral, a part of the pastoral team, or are you talking about a possibly a board member?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I think either. Okay. And or both. Uh part of that would, for instance, there's a I have a significant weakness that I know about. So any board that I sit on, if I'm if I'm in a position of chairman or or whatever my position is, one of the things I say to them is this is an area of weakness I have. I need somebody, at least one person on this board, to help me here. Okay, and the and the beauty is the Lord's allowed me to have somebody all through my years that helped in that area. Whether it was a whether it was somebody who was was part of the staff or or whether it was someone who was on uh it would be a volunteer but a board member who was there in the responsibility of coming up out of the congregation. Um if if there's not some if there's not some cohesive strength of organizational direction, if there's not somebody to help drive the the business of that organization organizationally, uh all the dreams are gonna fall by the wayside because they'll they'll show up, but there's no way to execute them.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. You mentioned uh this this afternoon uh in your session that um you made the point that every board member has a voice, and of course every board member has a vote. What do you do when a board member never speaks? That's a great question, especially when they vote, you know, contrary to the will of the rest of the board, but uh when a when a board member doesn't use their voice that's a great question, and and I have I've faced that repeatedly.
SPEAKER_00One of the things I've done is uh so every board has somebody who talks all the time, and almost every board has somebody who doesn't talk at all. So what I have done in those settings is if we're dealing with a significant issue, I will ask, I will ask personally for a board member who I know is usually quiet to give us their input. And what I have found is usually that's val that's valuable for one reason or another, they're not comfortable just talking out, but but when they are asked, uh they they will. The other thing that I would do is if I had a person who was always silent on the board and was opposed to things generally, I would go to him before the board meeting and talk. We we would talk outside of the actual business meeting, so I could try to start getting a sense of what it was, what keeps him from talking, andor uh uh what it is that he's opposed to, particularly if it's something he's you know, a person who would be against almost everything that comes up. I would try to I would try to mind him to find out what's driving. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So theologically, that's well grounded in the fact that we are one body, you know, serving one Lord, and in board meetings where we expect some dissent, uh, that is acting in in faith, trying to bring out the harmony and the unity that we ought to have. And and I think it's it's always important for us to say, you know, we're talking about some nitty-gritty here, but all of this is shaped by what we believe uh theologically, that that when we confess, you know, when when Paul uh you know tells us in Ephesians that we are you know one body, uh, you know, one Lord, uh emphasizing the unity throughout the entire letter, uh, that this this is what this looks like when you expect there may be dissent, that it it looks like a pastor or a board member having that discussion ahead of time, right? And pursuing that unity. So I I wrote this down. I don't know if uh this is verbatim from you, but you can uh tell me if if this reflects uh what you said or what you thought. Uh this is from your session. Everyone has a voice. You're speaking about the board members, everyone has a voice, use it. The board speaks finally with one voice. Does that reflect what you like that you're saying this voice? So we'll give you uh credit for that. Again, you said that in I think uh probably better than what I said it there, but I think that was really powerful because at the end of the day, the the board is to speak with one voice. So that leads me to this question. Uh, what do you what do you do with a uh how how do you approach a board member or a staff person who would continue to voice dissent that is contrary to the action and the will of the board?
SPEAKER_00Well, first the first thing I would do is I would address it in a board meeting. It would it would well no probably I would first address it personally. I would go to the person and uh and ask them if I could if he could help me understand why after the board's made a decision, um you know he's he's resisting that and uh sort of from my point of view, then he is he's not a loyal member. And when I say a loyal person, a loyal member, I don't mean somebody who's a yes man. I don't mean somebody who always just does whatever the pastor thinks or whatever the board asks for. But I'm talking about a person who's a true team member who voices his dissent in the board meeting, but when the board's made a decision, he's on the team, he's he's part of that decision. That's a loyal person. Um a person who's not doing that is a is creating dissent, and it will create division in the body, and that's not biblical. So I would probably start by first going to him or her and talking about help me understand what you're doing here and why this is happening, and then I would probably uh I would probably if it didn't stop, I would probably talk to the board about it.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, so so one of the instructions that we have, qualifications for an elder that are given to us in the uh first Timothy uh three list is uh that an elder is not to be a quarrelsome. So uh let me let me throw this out to both of you guys. Uh it seems we have some work to do to bring our uh maybe more secular notions of operating boards into line with uh Christian scripture in regard to both uh it being a spiritual role, but in light of what eldership is in scripture. Um I know I am in our church, we actually have, you know, we're an independent church, so we actually have a board of elders that is distinct from the board of directors. Um I'm working to change that to where there is just a single board of elders uh who are the spiritual leaders. Uh do you see that as a uh you know a common common issue that needs to be addressed in in many churches?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm a little hesitant to answer that. I I I think I think in general, in a general sense, the organizations that I'm part of have used the board, what we would call casually call the board, as a board of elders. Um although we don't use those terms. Um I think go ahead, Jonathan.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I mean, you know, I maybe I'm somewhat of a of a church polity wonk, um, and I'm just too much of a purist. But, you know, for me, I just have this deep sense that this is not my church, this is not my organization. And I just want to like look at everything that the New Testament says about how Christ wants to govern his church. And I think my studies have revealed that actually, I think the New Testament says more about these issues than we sometimes um than we sometimes g give it credit for. Places like 1 Timothy 5, 17, like let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. So there's elders who rule but don't labor in teaching and preaching. And right now, when we read those passages that talk about elders, we think, oh, that's the pastors, right? Those are the guys that preach, those are the preachers of the church. Well, who are the elders who rule but don't labor in preaching and teaching? For us, that's the board. The problem is that board is not held to the biblical qualifications for eldership. And to me, that's a big problem because those those qualifications are laid down by Christ. These this is the these are the expectations that I have for my shepherds if they're going to have any authority to rule this body. And so I do think that out of a pragmatic need to fill those those guiding roles, we have we have introduced a secular concept into the life of the church. Everybody says, yeah, but this is where we're at. And that's, I understand that. I think my my problem is when we settle into ecclesiological pragmatism. It's one thing to meet a need, it's another thing to just accept this is the way it is and it will always be, and not to have a clear picture for where we want to take things. Um, so you know, for me, that's personally where I'm at. I'm not casting stones at other churches and pastors, but I do, I really feel this sense of um I I just want to be careful that I don't allow um, I don't allow the world's wisdom for authority and government to shape my culture of government in the church because spiritual authority is a very different animal than worldly authority. Um, you know, Augustine said, I'm a bishop over you, but first I'm a Christian with you. You know, we are really not um, yeah, we're not CEOs, we're not uh we're not professionals in the in the strict sense of the term. We are we are shepherds and we are to shepherd together as a team of shepherds. Um and I think that that that requires us to be held to those qualifications.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Yeah, so I think that touches on you know what what I have experienced in our own in you know independent church, where elders for us means you know you have been ordained as a pastor teacher. And that's and that's pretty common use of the word uh in many church circles. Um I do think though our church structure church structure does lend itself to a you know fairly simple um recovery of the concept. So I I guess this would be why we call um concept slippage, where you know we take we we use a term in this case more narrowly than what scripture uses it. Uh, but I think it would actually benefit us to broaden that up back to the way scripture uses it, as you've mentioned, and to and and so that in that context, uh our board members recognize themselves as uh being the subjects of First Timothy uh chapter three and and Titus chapter one, and recognizing, oh, this this applies to me. Um this is just talking about the pastor.
SPEAKER_00I I think that's where we have to go. I I I would tend to agree with Jonathan in in this sense. Um that's part of why I see board training, training board members and trying to build a culture aboard, the the culture of the board so that it looks like uh what it ought to look like in the sense of the church. Um whether whether we use the term elder or not, I'm not gonna die there, but uh, but to train the people who serve in those positions of leadership, they're they're there for spiritual leadership. Yeah, they they make sure the bills are paid and some other things that that are part of that organization, but a significant reason for them to be there is their spiritual leadership. And if they lose that, and and to a large degree in many circles we have lost that, if we lose that, then we lose the spiritual strength of what that community of people should be in a sense of leadership. The other thing that's a huge part of this, and we haven't gotten into it at all, I'm not asking to it to make the conversation longer, but is the whole concept of teamwork. So if if if we all understand the pastor, the senior pastor, if there's pastoral staff, the board of directors, if we all understand that we're under shepherds, under Christ, and that we're we're in this community to show Christ as a as a group of believers, then we have some concept of the fact that we're doing this together as a team. Uh it's not just pastor doing it, it's not just you know one of the guys on the on the leadership board, but it's it's part of the whole united effort of the organization.
SPEAKER_01So that draws me to 1 Peter chapter 5. And for many years I read this as applying only to uh the teaching elder, or as we would call it, pastors, but listen to this in light of instruction to uh to lay elders as well, here or or board members, or whatever your particular church may call them. Uh Peter says, So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly as God would have you, not for shameful gain, but eagerly, not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading, unfading crown of glory. So again, because it uses the word shepherd there, uh, we think, okay, well, that's that's pastors, which that's that's the word, right? That's that's the same word. But there is a shepherding role that uh those uh who are not the teaching elders also carry, right? Yes. They are that they are part of the shepherding of a church. And I I so appreciate, I think you even started out uh today's session uh again earlier this afternoon at uh your conference ministerial uh with the uh the concept of a board culture in which the board members understand themselves to be the spiritual leaders of the church. In fact, I think you gave an anecdote uh as well of and uh I don't know if that's something you can share here or not. I don't I don't recall, but it was something about uh you know a board member not you know understanding their role in that way.
SPEAKER_00Well, very briefly, I one of the places I pastored, I was I'd asked the board to do a retreat to uh to seek the face of God and and to have some sense of unity spiritually in the sense of leading the congregation forward. And one of my main, one of the main guys in that church very very openly said, I'm not here for any spiritual leadership. I'm here to make sure the bills are paid. And uh it made me it helped me understand in a way that I I'd known this, but it just was so clear that suddenly I realized here are people who have been elected to a position. Probably their election meant that somebody hadn't done very good training, we hadn't done a good job teaching the church. Here's what these people represent. They're not just filling a position, they're not just making sure bills are paid or the lights are on or off. A significant part of their responsibility would be some sense of New Testament leadership, lay leadership or eldership, uh, but but it's it's it's as much spiritual as it is, if we're taking care of the spiritual side of it, some of the other the business end of it is going to come along better. One of the things I've said repeatedly is if church doesn't do its business well, it won't do business very long. And I'm not talking about in the sense of the business model. I'm talking about if I don't if we don't take care of the the organizational structure and do that in an organized way, in the spirit of Christ, and and what honors the word, then then we're gonna lose the ability to minister effectively in the community that we're part of. Certainly, certainly.
SPEAKER_01So one of the qualifications of an elder, and again, I you know, I believe this extends to uh you know lay elders, that uh we are to manage well, right? Uh, how can we be trying entrusted to manage you know the flock of God if we do not manage our own household well? So I think that gets down to the nitty-gritty of budgets and you know those sorts of things. I I it seems that to us all of that as well.
SPEAKER_03So can I just interject here quickly and get your thoughts? Maybe we can we can end here. I know we're running out of time. Uh, but you know, what are your thoughts about the idea of of deacons fulfilling more of these roles? Uh, most churches that I'm familiar with either don't have any deacons at all, or their concept of a deacon is the guy who takes up the offering plate, you know, maybe that counts the money. Uh, but like deacons are a very clearly defined role in the New Testament. There's there's there's a lot of like like some serious character requirements here that the people are supposed to be tested by and vetted by, like, and they played a very, very important role early on in the church. So when we talk a lot, we're using the word business, talking about the church's business. Uh, I recognize the church has very practical areas that it has to take care of, but I see that much of that being assigned to the role of deacon, um, where we, you know, we have these people who who help to alleviate these burdens, who make sure that the widows get their money and the church is distributing its funds properly so that the elders can focus on what they're called to, which is the ministry of the word in prayer. And so I think again, because we've gotten away from what I see to be as a New Testament model of government, we have many pastors who are encumbered in too much business and really aren't focused on spiritual care and discipleship and and mo and teaching and preaching.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes and amen. It's it's a whole it from my point of view, it comes back to um to uh um teaching a model that that that moves the pastor in many circles, and I think Dr. Fry mentioned this, one of you, one of you mentioned this, that in many circles the pastor is seen as a CEO. I really struggle with that. I think his the the New Testament model is he's a shepherd. He he may be the over-shepherd, so he he may have some he will have some responsibility in in leading in that sense, but um often a significant amount of time for many pastors is is taking care of those mundane things that um the the body of believers should come alongside and take care of, but because the pastor may not have been trained in what that looks like, and we're not training congregations, they're they're electing people to office without any training, without any understanding. This this is what this person's responsibility should be. Uh, whether it's a teaching role or whether it's taking care of the widows or the poor, we're We're not doing any training in that regard. And as a result of that, we're frustrating everybody. The pastors overloaded, the people aren't doing, they're not carrying a part of the load. It's not because they don't want to, it's because they either don't understand they should or they don't know how. Um, and I think all of that comes back to uh a change of what that picture looks like as we as we train, as we teach people. You don't just sit down with a piece of paper at annual board meeting or annual church meeting and write somebody's name down because he he doesn't have a job yet, which happens all the time. You understand one of the things I do when I lead a meeting like that is I talk to them about, you know, there are people who are qualified and there are people who aren't. And and let's let's find what the scripture says about what that should look like and try to find people who match that, who fit it, and fit them to the gifts. If you put somebody in a position, uh whatever the position is, that doesn't fit who they're gifted to be or what how the Holy Spirit has equipped them, you're just gonna frustrate them, and then you're gonna create tension in the congregation because they're gonna be frustrated, and that bleeds, and it and it anyhow it it but on the other side of that, if people are put in positions, however that's done, either by appointment or by election, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, that they're equipped to do and that they're trained to do or in training to do, then that blesses not only that person, but it blesses the larger body.
SPEAKER_01So let's do this in summation. Uh we'll start with you, Brother Sam's. Uh give us two summary points, bullet points that our listeners can can take and say, okay, I need to give, be attentive to these two items.
SPEAKER_00And then Jonathan, be thinking, because you're next, and then I'll well two two things that are incredibly important to me when we talk in this vein, and that is uh everyone who is part of that congregation needs to have a deep, first of all, a deep sense of their understanding of who they are in Christ and what that means spiritually to them, but in in regard to their interaction with the body of Christ, uh a significant understanding of the respect for every person, whether they agree with them or not, whether they're whether they feel like they're all on the same page together or not. That respect is incredibly important, and out of that respect then comes a level of trust that is absolutely necessary for any congregation to go forward in their ministry in the community. There's a lot of other things that could be said, but I think those are those are two very important beginning points.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so I hear you saying you know the the Christian anthropology, our view of the other, a person uh in the image of Christ, and then the second being that trust, which touches on that unity uh that we're called uh to uh maintain the unity of the spirit, right? Yes, and trust. Okay. Uh Jonathan, uh two summary points.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So first of all, and so the first one is is what I came into this conversation with. The second one is what I walk away with a renewed uh and renewed commitment to, and and it was very helpful to me. So let me just start with this. So, first of all, don't be pragmatic, be theologically informed. So somebody once told me I'm a pragmatist, and I said, Well, I'm an anti-pragmatist, so let's have a conversation. We actually had a great talk. Um, pragmatism allows circumstances, not theology, to drive practice. So don't be a pragmatist. My second point is, okay, but that always lays the burden on me then to take things from where they are to where the ideal theological picture ought to be. Um, but we have to keep it always before us that that picture of church government or of church life, if if it if it's theologically informed, that means we're letting God have this his say and doing it God's way. So then the second point is develop a strategic plan for getting from where you are to where the church ought to be. Um, don't just float along and hope that we're gonna get there. And so some of the takeaways, like you just a lot of practical takeaways for how to do that is I think you made a great point, Dr. Fry. And actually, you made a very similar point, uh, Brother Sam's, about that that right now with the board model, um, there's a lot of overlap between what our board members are doing and what biblical elders ought to do. So beginning to find ways to begin to get the board to think about themselves more like elders, and then to begin to find ways to hold them to those qualifications can eventually help to make the transition where it's fairly seamless into this is an elder board. And through that process, there's a lot of teaching, there's a lot of, you know, preaching along those lines. Um, but even like reading a passage like 1 Peter, you know, at the beginning of your board meeting or whatever, um, you know, starting to encourage them to think about themselves in those categories. You know, even if you don't say, hey, you're a pastor, which literally means shepherd, you can say, hey, we are shepherding this church. And that's a very small place. So having a strategic way, and this really is a mindset change. And I think that happens over time. So don't be pragmatic. Let theology, not circumstances, drive your practice, and then have a strategic plan for getting from where you are to where the church ought to be theologically.
SPEAKER_01My summation points would be number one, this. Um, and by the way, I like what you all said, and you stole my point. So I'm I'm going on to what would be further points. That as a pastor, I'm part of a team. Um, I'm not the CEO, I am part of a team of of overseers in the local congregation, and I am called to uh be one voice, uh, yes, a teaching voice, but one voice among many. And as a pastor, I want to honor that and be very hesitant to move forward multiple steps ahead of that body of overseers, um, recognizing my role as a leader, and yet also recognize that um we must speak with one voice, as brother Sam's mentioned in his session. Uh, my second takeaway or some summary point would be that as we talk about these church leadership matters, we have a rich theology to draw from. And I know Jonathan, you made this point, but let me reiterate it uh perhaps in other words. We have a rich theology to draw from. We can draw from much good in the business uh economic, even civil culture that we live in, there's much good to be drawn from, but that doesn't form what we do. Um we draw deeply from the well of biblical ecclesiology, which gives us quite a bit of instruction on how to be the church, and if we are not operating as the unique body of Christ, uh bearing with one another in love, then we are doing something other than being church, and whatever the issue is that we are grappling with as a board and as a church, we must be grappling with those things in love because that's what makes the church stand out essentially from any other organization or any other board of directors over some other organization. Uh so keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_03Very good. Maybe I we can have a future discussion uh on the some of that historical theology of church government, you know, just uh to make people aware. One of the ways, whenever I have this discussion, I always tell people, look around at the churches in your community. There's episcopalians, there's presbyterians. How do they define themselves by church government? I mean, episcopalians, episcopas, bishop, they believe in bishops that are different from pastors, uh, presbyterians, plurality of presbyters or elders. Um, you know, Baptists have defined themselves largely one of their core distinctives, besides believers' baptism, is congregational government. So, like the church has talked about resources, there are just volumes and volumes written on these issues because they have been they have been dividing minds through history.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys Podcast. Email your questions to podcast at holyjoys.org, and they may be featured on a future episode. Our labors for a Holy Happy Church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
