Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
Prevenient Grace, Part 3: God Alone Initiates Faith
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In this episode, David Fry and Johnathan Arnold continue discussing prevenient grace in the thought of William Burt Pope.
Fundamentally, we want to say faith is God's gift. Even emphasizing that with priority, that gets the priority. Who initiates faith?
SPEAKER_02And Christians through the ages, including Wesleyan's, have always affirmed that God and God alone initiates faith.
SPEAKER_00And that is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2. You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_01All right, back here to talk about uh provenient grace and especially uh William Burt Pope's understanding of provenient grace. So we're working through some sections in his compendium, uh second volume on provenient grace. And the last time that we were together, we really um kind of ended up talking not about the particulars of provenient grace, so much as a kind of the broader soteriological framework or kind of the big picture view of salvation um that Methodists have held throughout history, which sometimes makes it a little difficult for us to have conversations with some from a Calvinist perspective because we come with a lot of different assumptions. So I think you said something like, you know, we tend to think about it as like our children are born sinners, and we kind of hope someday they'll learn that Jesus died for them way back there and they'll get saved. But that actually Methodists have seen the accomplishment of Christ on the cross having this universal effect. He's, you know, as Romans 5 says, and as Irenaeus really developed, reheaded the human race. There's this universal accomplishment. Now, individuals can get cut off from this saved human race, and we're kind of in this like probationary thing. And because we're all born corrupt, we are gonna stray, but a much, um, a much more positive understanding of what Christ has objectively done for all, and that that's really the place to enter into this discussion of then this universal provenient grace that's leading men to salvation. Would that be, you know, accurate summary, right, uh kind of place to keep going with the conversation?
SPEAKER_02Right, right. And Pope gives uh throughout uh his second volume in particular, has these really nice summary statements that are sprinkled throughout. For instance, uh, let me just pick one out here on from page 53. Uh Nature is condemned, yet it is universally redeemed. And uh that that's the framework in which Pope and Wesleyan theologians work out of, and and that's quite quite uh different from a different uh Calvinist framework uh or Lutheran framework uh which sees us uh primarily through the lens of the first atom and not primarily through the lens of the second atom.
SPEAKER_01So uh what we kind of looked at the big picture, but one of the things I wanted to do before we now get to the details is maybe actually zoom out even a little further. Um, because one of the things I don't think we really talked to talked about much was how Pope sees um provenient grace not only relating to what Christ has accomplished, but then the whole economy of salvation. So, you know, when we talk about the Trinity, we we tend to jump to the imminent Trinity, you know, what God is, who God is uh eternally before the creation of the world, and and try to, you know, get in drill down on this whole person-nature distinction. But the way God revealed himself as Trinity was in the gospel when the Father sent the Son and the Spirit. And Pope has this really robust um Trinitarianism that shapes everything that he does. Um, and so he is positioning provenient grace in the economy. He's discussed um the father sent the son, the son accomplished redemption. That's what we talked about last time a lot. Now he's gonna view provenient grace as primarily the work of the Holy Spirit in the economy of redemption. Why is that so important?
SPEAKER_02So the Holy Spirit and the whole section of provenient grace is is set within the Holy Spirit uh being the uh really the giver of life, as he calls uh the spirit later uh and earlier. Um there are two points that come to my mind in understanding the the economy of uh the economic trinity and then the economy of of grace and salvation. Uh one is that provenient grace is understood by Pope as it was understood uh and articulated especially by Augustine. Uh provenient grace is the grace of Christ. And uh this is uh so for instance, um uh I may have lost it, but I think at the beginning of this section or prior to the section on uh provenient grace, uh he talks about um okay, yeah. The Holy Ghost is here the author of preliminary grace, that is, of the kind of preparatory influence which is imparted outside of the temple of Christ's mystical body. Uh so the gr uh and then he goes down, this is on page 358, uh, that last paragraph. It must be remembered that it is the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ flowing from and revealing the love of God uh that that is dispensed to the outer world in the communion of the Holy Ghost. So so the Holy Spirit is um applying the grace of Christ. Now to understand why the grace of Christ as a phrase, a concept is is so important, it's not it's not only because of what Christ did for us in atonement, but it is also, particularly for Augustine, um set against what uh some uh early Christians thought, and that was that uh we have the grace of creation creata gratia that is sufficient for uh for good works or living a morally uh upright life. And uh Augustine and all the way down through the centuries now here with Pope, uh they they're not going to affirm that. Not that we deny the grace of creation, but that there is something more than that. And so it becomes a christological issue, provenient grace becomes a christological concern uh because we have to because it all hinges on what Christ did as the incarnate word of God. And if we uh if we appeal to the grace of creation for living a life of righteousness and holiness, then as Augustine asked, uh what then of Christ? Uh why is Christ necessary? Uh perhaps an answer would be, well, you know, he's a moral example. Uh well, there's there's there's more than that. And so that that's what Pope is doing throughout this section in applying in bringing in the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit, emphasizing here that he's talking about the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is grace that comes to us only because of what Christ did uh in his incarnation.
SPEAKER_01Can you just explain a little bit more the concept of the grace of creation? Because I'm thinking of um Arminius who said that even before the fall of man, that man could not think, will, or do anything without divine aid. So he's he seems to think that not only do we need enablement after the fall, but we even needed divine enablement before the fall, which is which is a you know an incredible testimony to just how far-reaching you know Arminius's doctrine of grace goes. But but what what do you mean by the the grace of creation and how does that relate to what Arminius said?
SPEAKER_02So so the grace of creation uh refers to to two points about humanity as we were made. Number one is that uh we received the great special grace by being creatures in the image of God. So there's that uh substantive aspect of we are in some way a reflection of who God is. Uh that's number one. Two would be more of a capacity or um uh a the outworking of that. So so it's one thing to be made in the image of God, it's another thing to do things that image God, and grace has to enable that as well. But all of that is entail in God's creation, formation of Adam and Eve in the beginning, and then his continued fellowship with them, and with that fellowship implied is an enablement to actually carry out the responsibilities of having been made in the image of God. So all of that is what is contained within this doctrine of the grace of creation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so just in that contrast between the grace of creation and the grace of Christ, you know, I would want to ask, like, isn't even that enabling grace prior to the fall the grace of Christ? You know, isn't all grace the grace of the word? Or are you saying that that you want to use this idea of the grace of Christ in the very specific sense of grace which is available through the incarnation? So Christ specifically viewed as the God man.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it's uh that because uh the fall introduces a new need, and in order to continue to be uh to have the a capacity or even to be. We don't have to get to the point of of talking about having capacity, just to continue to be, we have to have grace that was that was not uh needed prior to sin, uh, because sin did not yet uh had not yet entered into the world. And so um so the grace of Christ comes in specifically to address the the need that is introduced by sin. So there is um, of course, there's there's that whole question which is beyond the scope of what we want to talk about today, of you know what what of the incarnation um you know apart from sin. And you know, that certainly has been you know a question that especially was of interest in the medieval uh period among the scholastics, but that's not that's not the concern. That certainly Augustine and and his debates with Pelagius, that's not the concern, really, even the Arminius uh had, and and that's not part of the discussion of Pope here, uh, but it is uh a distinction between, and by this time, you know, so this is uh late 19th century, by this time, a centuries-old distinction between uh how Adam and Eve uh were graced and how they needed to be graced after the fall.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we talk about you mentioned I I forget which uh designation of spirit you use, but here, you know, Pope uh says the Holy Ghost is once in scripture termed in a most affecting connection, the spirit of grace. Um and so the point you're the primary point you're making here is that the spirit of grace, the great, this is the grace of Christ, and that is because uh it is the grace of the Father and the Son in the redemption of mankind, as he says right before that. So when God acts towards us in grace, he acts as God, God being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So when God acts in grace towards the world, it's the Father acting through the Son and the Spirit, you know, the two hands of God, as the Father said. Um so when the Spirit comes, he's not bringing to us, you know, it's not like, okay, Christ did his thing, and now he's done, and now the spirit's gonna give us some grace. It's actually now like this is the grace of Christ that is being applied by the Holy Spirit. So there's this unity, this inseparability to the operations of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Is that am I understanding your kind of primary point there? Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the spirit of uh the Holy Spirit is the uh the spirit that applies the grace of Christ universally. And it is that there is a parallel here then back to creation with the spirit being breathed or God breathing into a mound of dust to make Adam a living soul, and what the spirit is doing now in applying uh the new creation uh through Christ.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we touched on that a little bit in our last discussion, and I think it's worth just just reiterating here before we jump into the particulars, which we're gonna, I think, do here next. But but that that um really the the fittingness, the the beauty of the economy is the is really the the creation, new creation dynamic. You know, in the beginning, God creates all things. John tells us that he created all things through the word, the spirit is hovering over the water, and then so he's present in creation. And then when when God breathes the breath of life, what is the breath of life? Well, it is the the spirit. The spirit is eternally breathed, he spirates in the, you know, in the eternal relations of origin. So there is this in the beginning, the economy in creation, and now the same economy is seen after man falls and needs to be redeemed. So now God is recreating all things. So how does God do that? The same way he did it in the beginning, through the word, the word through whom all things are created is the word through whom all things are redeemed, and now the spirit who uh you know who was breathed and brought life to man in the beginning is being breathed again and bringing bringing life again. So I think that's the you know this the really the biggest possible picture context there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I think it's a good summary of of uh theologically of what Pope is doing here in um in leading up to his discussion of provenient grace, and then here in his opening page or so um before this section on grace provenient.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because now the next thing he's gonna say is that this grace, this provenient grace, is declared in two ways. So, first of all, man is impotent in his guilt and weakness, and second, God's manifold gift and redemption is free. So beautifully simple there. We're helpless, God gives free grace, you know, which is so uh so thoroughly Wesleyan. So why don't we just talk about you know these two points? Um uh what how does how does Pope understand man's uh you know impotence or his powerlessness?
SPEAKER_02Right. So uh man is impotent in his guilt and weakness. Um so we could have a uh we can have discussion on guilt. Uh we can have discussion on weakness. Now, I let me actually take the second one there. Um I think that's of of more interest right now uh to where we are. Um and that is that that uh you know I think you put you uh pointed out some some statements that we'll get to later concerning uh the effect of sin upon the human uh psychology. And when I when I use the word psychology, that's a a broad word to refer to the the psychological aspects of being human. That means our mind, our will, our desires, our our um our our intellect, uh ability to to choose, uh to comprehend. Perfections would be a word that's right, uses a lot. Yeah. All of those are part of the human psyche, and those are psychological elements of what it means to be human. And that is and what he means is that that is weakened. All of that is weakened. And we know from Wesley, right, that that uh total depravity uh means it means several things, but one of those is that um the whole person is affected by sin. We are totally affected. But what Wesleans have not meant is that every uh although every aspect of humanity is affected, it is not destroyed. We are still human beings in the image of God. So it's not that sin made us non-humans, we still maintain something of what it m means to be and bearers of the image of God. And so what that means is that we still have affections, we still have will, we still have intellect, we still have all of the various aspects of human psychology. It's just that now they are weak, they are fallen, and uh there's there's a lot to discuss there on how sin affects that, what that effect is, uh, but that discussion I think has to be um prefaced with a recognition that we're working with a framework or a system of thought that acknowledges that uh humanity is not destroyed. We don't mean by total depravity that humanity has been destroyed within us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so I think I would just want to like just two points of quick clarification. Like weakness could be heard maybe by somebody as well, we're just a little weak, but Pope says they are absolutely unable to help themselves. So this is like this is the weakness that you're you know, that word is coming from while we were yet weak, you know, Christ came. So so the idea of weakness is not this just kind of like you know, anemia, it's like a true inability. Um there is inability here. But then I think the where the confusion comes on this other point is like total, the word total in total depravity sometimes makes people think you're as depraved as you could be. Um, but actually, nobody really thinks that, Wesleyan or Calvinists, at least not mainstream theologians. I think it was like R.C. Sproul who said, I think Sproul said something like, We can imagine even Hitler had some affection for his mother, you know, like he's not as depraved as he could be. It can always get worse. Rather, every part of man, his intellect, his affections, every part total in its scope, uh, quantitatively, including the whole person, not qualitatively depraved. And that's an important point for Pope. And he's gonna it is, it is.
SPEAKER_02And let me add to that, then, that uh while we share that, there are some differences, and there are differences even within the Western tradition on this, but whether or not whether or not that is attributed to the grace of creation, or if that is attributed to um to the grace of Christ. And uh I I think Pope is going to fall into the category of saying that uh sin could never um sin could never destroy what it means to be human. Uh it doesn't have that power. Um whereas, and again, this is not a necessarily a difference between Reformed and I should say Calvinist and Arminian ways of thinking, because there are people in both camps that would differ on this. But uh I think it is a way to bring back in the distinction then between the grace of creation and the grace of Christ, uh as as the ground one or the other being the ground for uh for why humanity uh uh continues and yet has been hindered in its ability. That's that's certainly part of the ongoing discussion through the centuries.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so let me just just ask you this. So uh that statement I don't have in front of me, Pope saying that, you know, couldn't destroy what it means to be human. I think I understand what you mean by that. Is there a sense, though, in which if the grace of Christ had not been interposed, that sin actually would have ultimately led to even the destruction of what it means to be human? Like, you know, Athanasius speaks of returning to non-being. Like the the fathers made some really strong statements about how like the end of sin is something that is in some ways less than human.
SPEAKER_02Is that is that yes, yes, except only God can end humanity. Right. So it so that moment of Adam's sin is a moment in which God decides to provide the grace of continued life or not. So sin certainly hasn't has an effect upon our humanity, but we do sin, we would give sin too much credit if we said sin can destroy something that God made.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really, really helpful. Yeah, thank you. Okay, so let's so uh what about guilt? So this is a little trickier. Um, you know, what is what does pope mean when man is impotent in his guilt? And then what is really the kind of the tension there? And this is where things get a little more um tense between the Arminians and the Calvinists.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's a huge question uh for uh for uh especially for 19th century Methodist thinking, because uh John Wesley very freely affirmed a notion of of inherited guilt or or us participating in the guilt of Adam. He didn't approach the question systematically so much. Um in fact, he would that's probably where he's the most unsystematic. And many of the 19th century Methodists uh really call him out on it. I think most uh obviously or explicitly would be Daniel Whedon, who um was the longtime editor for the publishing house and and uh uh editor of the Methodist uh magazine, it slipped my mind what it was called here in America, but uh in any case, uh he he just calls it you know Wesley's legal fiction. And you can imagine how once once you conceive of inherited guilt as a legal fiction, then it's a matter of you know time before someone just says, Well, no, what's the difference between it being a fiction and it not being something that we need to talk about at all? And uh and that's in fact what happened by the end of the 19th century. Um so with with Pope, I first of all I'm gonna say I I'm not really sure where Pope stands in relationship to uh I to inherited guilt, other than he does use the phrase, but he knows enough of Wesley's uh inconsistency that um I I don't imagine that he is going to repeat the same mistakes that that Wesley did. So for instance, Wesley would say in in uh I don't remember which sermon it is now, but he would he talks about inherited guilt, but then he would say, Oh, but but uh none of us remain in that state because of Christ. So what he seems to give or affirm on one hand he takes away from the other. When when Pope uses guilt, I I I think he's going to mean it more in a in a corporate sense, but certainly not I can say this about Pope, but this is as early as Watson as well, and and and really Fletcher. They are not going to say that any person is culpable or condemned on the basis of that, which is why Daniel Whedon comes along and calls it illegal fiction, uh, which he did, I think it was in 1960 or sorry, 1864, on his book, in his book Freedom of the Will, uh, is where he he really goes to town on that. Um so I think Pope, and and I probably should know better than this, but it's been a while since I've read Pope on this.
SPEAKER_01Um I think in some ways we can maybe just this is an important question, but I don't I think in some ways it can be uh held apart from kind of the fundamental um issue at stake here in provenient grace. So I don't I don't I don't know that um what where we well maybe I should ask you, do you think that where we fall on inherited guilt necessarily um you know affects our understanding of provenient grace as dealing with man's inability to respond to Christ, which is the primary issue here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it doesn't. So we're pro where inherited guilt is gonna have some effect is is on what we talked about last time, and that is whether or not we understand ourselves as being born liable to eternal condemnation. That that's that's where it hinges. And uh Pope is pretty clear uh throughout uh especially the second volume, he's pretty clear that uh that that's not the case. So whatever he means by guilt, uh it's not going to carry the kind of weight that is is often given to it, especially in the Calvinist framework.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So just to reiterate, um, you know, the difference between what I understand to be more of a wesling approach versus a Calvinistic approach is that a Calvinist might say, well, if an infant dies, you know, um most, at least modern contemporary Calvinists would say, because of the atonement, at that point, you know, that that God will justify that infant and that infant will be, you know, will be saved, versus uh more of a Wesleyan approach where, well, actually that infant is part of the human race that Christ has objectively saved. And if he grows up, he will stray because we all stray because of our corrupt nature. But up until that point, he's not actually guilty because of what Christ has accomplished uh in reheading the human race. He's part of a saved human race. Would that be would that be correct?
SPEAKER_02Almost, except I'm not sure I would say that that is really uh in what you state as the as a Calvinist response, that that is uh really that often said. I I know we mentioned last week, yeah, John Piper made a reference to that, but there are others um that uh and I'm looking on my show, like okay, so Wayne Grudham, for instance, Michael Horton. They would both be very uncertain about that. And I would certainly say, you know, we we certainly emotionally want to be able to say that children are you know certainly safe, but we can't say that with certainty. Uh so so Piper is actually a little more confident than what it seems others are uh from that from that standpoint.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the big point, man is powerless, he's impotent. Uh the second point then is that provenient grace is introduced as the the divine solution, uh, God's free grace for helpless people. Um, and and this is this free grace. It's the grace by which we're we're saved through faith, not of ourselves, it's a gift. Um and he introduces this second point by citing Ephesians 2.8, and this is what he says there is no need to ask which, whether salvation or faith the gift refers. It refers to both, which in this connection are inseparable. So I have heard Wesleyan teachers and preachers say, you know, quote this verse, by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it, it is the gift of God. And they want to say that's referring to the salvation. So salvation is offered as a free gift, and then faith is what we do in response, will we accept it or not? But that faith itself is not properly called a gift of God. Um, here Pope says both are the gift of God, and elsewhere, and I actually think that is in the following section. If I'm I I haven't read it recently, but it but if it's it seems to me like actually he goes into depth in that in his section on conversion, and he says quite explicitly, no, faith is the gift of God. Um what what's the tension there? Why is that so important?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think we we feel tension. He doesn't feel tension there. Um and no, he doesn't. No, not at all. I I think we only feel it because we tend to emphasize faith as an act of of our uh assent, an act of our will, and assenting to um to what we believe God is offering us. Um But that's we run the danger of seeing ourselves as the initiators of faith. And this is uh quite a major point of difference between how evangelicals today, generically speaking, understand faith and how Christians through the ages have understood faith. So Pope will go on in his set next uh I don't know if it's next chapter, but his next section on faith, which begins uh page 376. He will go on, and particularly on pages 380 and 381, to distinguish between passive and active aspects of faith. So, what is important for us to affirm is what's called the initium fidei, what the early church fathers called in Latin the Initium Fidei, who initiates faith. And Christians through the ages, including Wesleyan's have always affirmed that God and God alone initiates faith. And that is what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2. He is saying that there is no faith without God giving us the gift of salvation and anything that's included in that. Now that does not eliminate, and this is where our our modern minds uh uh try to try to draw, maybe it's an effort to try to draw distinctions where there we really shouldn't, but uh we have a hard time imagining faith being a gift. I have no problem affirming that because that's what scripture seems to clearly say, and that's what the that's what Christians through the ages have affirmed, that God alone is the initiator of faith, that faith is something that's given to us first, and only secondly is it something that we actively receive. So only secondly is faith an exercise of our will, but it is first a gift from God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I found one of my highlights that I that I remember where he even says, um, you know, speculative or historical faith, uh thus through divine grace, deepens into that spiritual faith, which in its last exercise is the gift of God to the soul by himself prepared for its exercise. And as you were talking about, you know, it's kind of the whole thing, it's is it's all of grace. I think of this uh another place, and I can't find that citation now, but where he he cites James, you know, every good gift, and he said, this includes, you know, every spiritual good, every spiritual influence. I mean, if it's a good thing, faith is good, it's of God. It's all the it's all the divine gift. Now, yes, you have to you have to relate that in some way to you know human responsibility and and volition, but fundamentally we want to say faith is God's gift. Even even emphasizing that with priority, that gets the priority.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so uh on page 376, his opening statement on faith is this faith as the instrument of appropriating salvation is a divinely wrought belief in the record concerning Christ and trusting his person as personal savior. And then he goes again later in that paragraph, as divinely wrought, it is attended by assurance. As human, it works by love. So yeah, he he has no problem, he no hesitancy at all, uh, because this was this was just understood better uh in in past eras, I suppose, than what it is today. And and we are we are fearful today. I think people today are fearful of salvation that that um is not entirely within our control. Uh we we are we tend to be just a fearful culture of things that are not within our control. If it's not within our control, we w it makes us afraid. And uh at the same time, though, when it comes to salvation, there are people who are uh just as afraid because it seems what they hear is that salvation is within our control and that makes them fearful. Uh just bottom line is it doesn't turn out good either way if we only understand faith as our active response to God's grace. Yes, that is an aspect of faith, but that is not the initium fidei. The initium fidei, the initial uh faith is a gift. Uh and and that is um, you know, we we cannot even give that most basic confession of of uh believers through the ages that Christ, Jesus Christ is Lord without the help of the Holy Spirit, right? Yeah, and that that is all part of of the initium fidei.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to I want to hold the focus there for a second and just a comment, you know, from my own personal experience. I, you know, I look back at my own testimony and I I think about what God did for me, and and sometimes I describe it like I was this miserable teenager, didn't know God, didn't know anything about scripture, and it was like there's just this big blur, and then I'm I'm saved, I'm I'm you know, obsessed with the word of God, I'm preaching the word, and it's like in some way, it's like God just like picked me up and he just put me where he wanted me, you know, like he did everything. Now I know looking back, like, you know, and based on what scripture says, I know that I could have resisted, you know, you always resist. I know that I could, I had there's some way in which I had to cooperate, but that I just see it so, you know, it's God's grace. Like in Fred Sanders, you know, he says, because God is happy, the omnipotent happiness of God is coming to get you. You know, so when I was unhappy, God just he came and he just got me. Like, you know, he did it. So I'm, you know, I'm a young believer, I'm looking for resources, I'm looking on the internet, I'm I'm looking for books to read, you know. And I find all these Calvinists, I find, you know, guys like Piper, MacArthur, you know, I in part I got saved through reading MacArthur's study bible, you know, and they're talking all the time about what God does, and this is God's work, and this is He did it. And then I hear Wesleans and Arminians, and you know, they're talking primarily the emphasis is about what you need to do, and you need to, you know, you need to choose and choose who you this day who you will serve. Now, is that a is that a biblical emphasis? Yeah, but does it actually have the primacy? And what I think is is powerful about Pope here, he's saying, what is faith? Well, let's start here. Faith is the instrument of appropriating salvation. It's like the instrument that like the tongs that you use to grasp onto something. Like you, you know, what is that appropriate, you take appropriate salvation what Christ has done objectively. Well, it is a divinely wrought belief, first and foremost. So I think to myself, you know, in some ways, I think we we sometimes deserve the criticism that we get from Calvinists that we're man-centered. Now, I don't think that Wesley and soteriology is man-centered. I think that if you really deal with the great theology, you know, of our tradition, it's not. It's not man-centered at all. But at a popular level, you know, popular preaching, I think so much of it actually is. And so this is why, and it goes back to our other discussion about, you know, like even the pastor is theologian. Like if we don't have this theology worked out, it will come out in our preaching, in our emphases. It's gonna, it's gonna create a whole ethos, a whole attitude, a whole perception that does seem to be fairly man-centered. And that scared me. I mean, I I really wrestle with it. I mean, if it wasn't for guys like Pope, if I hadn't discovered these resources, I don't know that I'd be a Methodist today. But I realize that actually Methodism has it right. It's just we've lost some of this and we've got to get this back because there are, I mean, by the droves, there are young men and women who are flocking to reform circles because they're getting a robust God-centered theology. And we've we've just got to get this back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I would say, I would say those who are who are moving towards more of a Calvinist way of thinking, um what they are turning to, though, is in regard to in regard to sin, the doctrine of sin and humanity, doctrine of uh properly speaking, doctrine of mankind, that way of thinking, Calvinism tends to be or is very man-centered or first atom centered. And I think I said this earlier, but I want to emphasize this again. They are very first atom centered, whereas Pope and others, Methodists, have tended to be very second atom centered and explain our condition in the world according to those different ways of uh different center points. When it comes to salvation, then, or living out the Christian life, or talking about faith, uh the opposite seems to be true. Uh, we suddenly become very man-centered, and uh Calvinists then become pretty radically Christ-centered. And the truth is we we need to be Christ-centered through through the whole thing, um not to discount or to set aside by any means what took place in the first Adam. But we we should have, and and Pope is a great example of this, we should have a Christ-centered understanding of humanity at large and continue that Christ-centeredness when we talk about personal salvation and uh our relationship to Christ through the church. Uh, that can it must continue to be Christ-centered. We it's it's terribly inconsistent and leads to all sorts of bad things uh and and terrible struggles for a person to suddenly become man-centered, uh, centered upon themselves when it comes to to their salvation. And it is it is unfortunate that that has happened. And that's not to discount uh human human effort at all. Uh rather, it is, and I think this is part of Pope's point, that that Christ has worked our salvation, the salvation of the world. It has been given to us. Salvation is a gift that has been given to the world. Faith through the Holy Spirit is a gift that is given to each individual. I think John touches on this. And so John Wesley in particular, one of his favorite verses for provenient grace was was John 1.9. Uh the true light, which enlightens every person, was coming into the world. And uh and uh Pope continues that that way of applying provenient grace through the agency of the Holy Spirit so that every person is given the gift of faith, but every person has not has not uh received that gift of faith. And so uh he will go on in both his provenient grace section and his faith section to talk about how faith must be uh must be uh active.
SPEAKER_00It must be we must assent to what Christ has done in order for us to be united to what he's done. Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys Podcast. Email your questions to podcast at holyjoys.org, and they may be featured on a future episode. Our labors for a Holy Happy Church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
