Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
The Priesthood of All Believers, Martin Luther, and the Church's Authority (Repost)
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In this episode, Johnathan Arnold and David Fry discuss the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers and its practical implications for the life of the church, especially keeping and restoring one another from sin.
Quotes from Fry:
- Our authority as pastors is a derived authority. We are acting on behalf of Christ and his church.
- In our leadership-focused, hierarchical society, when you talk about rulership or dominion, immediately images of domination come to mind, instead of servant-leadership or service.
- Taking someone away from the local church and having a baptism is problematic. This is something that is to be taking place within the local body.
Quotes from Arnold:
- Christians are united with Christ and so share in his anointing as priests to God.
- When it comes to something as basic as dealing with sin in our lives, the priesthood of all believers does not mean that I just go to my prayer closet and sort out all of my sin issues with Jesus. I also need to go to others in the congregation and we need to serve one another as priests. I need to say, "I'm not okay, I need help, will you pray with me?"
- It's not about "every one of us is a priest," it's about "we are all priests to one another."
And so it's not about, well, every one of us is a priest, but it's about every one of us is a priest to one another. Uh, you know, as a community, all together we share and exercise this priesthood. Priest is never used that way.
SPEAKER_02It's never used to speak of someone who has exclusive privileges in the church. Rather, it's used several places to refer to believers in general.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_00I'm excited to talk about the priesthood of all believers, and it's something I really enjoy talking about because of its practical implications for the life of the church. We've talked about various doctrines that have practical ramifications. Every doctrine, you know, has implications for the church. But sometimes, you know, it's not as obvious. Sometimes you have to think uh pretty hard about how do we apply this, uh, how does this work itself out in the life of the church? But you know, that's that's not the case with the priesthood of all believers. I mean, certainly we need to think about uh and reflect more deeply on how it's expressed, but but the point is that it just has such obvious uh implications right away for for how we live as Christians. And um and I was just reading and talking here a little bit with you about Cyril Eastwood, a Methodist scholar, who says that you know, various Christian traditions from the Reformation to the Evangelical Revival are really just different ways of understanding and applying the priesthood of all believers in the life of the church. Uh so I think it's I think it's profitable for us to reflect on it and uh maybe some ways that we need to correct our thinking and practice so that we can be a healthier church and more faithfully exercise uh our role as priests to God, as Revelation says.
SPEAKER_02Right. And we want to have this conversation uh in order to uh be able to explore several applications of what it means to be a kingdom of priests as the church. Um I think the the most immediate application that we want to get into uh here the next few weeks is uh the role of restoration, uh or even more broadly, the role of the church in uh keeping and restoring one another from sin. Uh and that is a priestly uh responsibility. So what we have to say here today uh really should set us up for that conversation, but it should also set us up for some other conversations as well. But uh that's where we intend to go first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and actually that's what um drew my attention back to this issue. We were talking about uh, you know, confession of sin, restoration of sin. And uh when I think about um this issue in the in the church, the most one of the most common things that I hear is something like, you know, well, I'm not a Roman Catholic, um, you know, I believe in the priesthood of all believers, you know, I'm a priest, so I don't need to confess my sins to a priest, I can go directly to God. And so it's kind of like uh I don't need the church, it's just me and Jesus, uh, I confess my sins right to him. Uh, but that's really a misunderstanding and misapplication of even a Protestant understanding, you know, historically, of the doctrine. The priesthood of all believers, I put this on social media a little a couple weeks ago, something like uh the priesthood of all believers does not mean I don't need to confess my sins to a priest because I am a priest. It means, as James commands, confess your sins one to another because the whole community shares the priesthood. Um, and so what we want to understand, you know, here is how um our priestly character as a church, as a community, um, you know, has implications for the way that we as individuals navigate you know holiness and worship and so many other issues.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I think in our uh conversation the other day, as you and I were kind of processing through this idea of the priesthood of believers, uh, the key is it's it's the priesthood of the whole body of believers. And uh again, as you have said, what is what is true of the church is true of us as individuals. And when we think of priesthood, of course, we automatically think of you know the Old Testament, you know, God appointed role. Uh God's appointment was made and affirmed through anointing, right? The anointing of oil, and then that became uh successive in the Old Testament. And uh, but that anointing was still there. I mean, it priests still had to be anointed ongoing. And so now here we are as the body of Christ, and every believer has been anointed by the spirit, and it is that anointing. So this is all within the context of our doctrine of the spirit as well. We are priests because of the spirit's formation of the church. The church only is because the spirit forms it, and he forms it by his anointing, and one result of that is that we are uh priests, which is a public ministry. Yeah, it's we're not speaking when we say, you know, the priesthood priesthood of believers, we're not breaking apart the body of Christ into its individual parts or members, but we're saying, no, this is speaking to a responsibility that every believer has toward other members of the body. Right. So this is a public ministry, and we'll get into that as we talk about what the Bible says of the priesthood of God's people. And uh there's quite a lot. We probably won't get to every point, but uh we want to make sure we hit the highlights today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so why don't we just go back to this point of anointing? You know, I think um most Christians are familiar with the idea that in the Old Testament there's this priesthood, they're they're set apart through ceremonial anointing, and then Jesus comes. The book of Hebrews explores this in depth. He's the one who fulfills um all that the Old Testament priesthood pointed to. Um, he comes to offer the once-for-all sacrifice, and he's the only mediator between God and man, and and um, you know, he makes the way into the Holy of Holies. Um, but what's so beautiful about um being a Christian is that to be a Christian is to be one who's united to Christ. You know, the Holy Spirit, as you say, comes into our lives, unites us to Jesus, and so now we are connected to Christ, we are his body, and so we share in his anointing. And I love to go to Psalm 133 when I when I talk about this shared anointing, because I think it's um uh a beautiful illustration of how Christ's anointing uh impacts or influences his body. So Psalm 133 says, Behold, how good and pleasant it is when the brothers dwell in unity. It's like the precious oil on the head running down on the beard, on the beard of Aaron, running down on the collar of his robes. So the Holy Spirit comes upon Christ, the great high priest, and when we are united to Christ as his body, as his members, that anointing that was upon the head of Christ, our high priest, now flows down to his body so that we also are anointed and we share in his priestly ministry, we participate in his priesthood, um, so that you know Peter can say uh in 1 Peter 2 that we're we are a holy priesthood, a kingdom of priests, or royal priesthood, and we share in that priestly character because we share in Christ's anointing. I'll just share this quickly yet from the Heidelberg. Um I read the Heidelberg Catechism a few years ago, and and this is like my favorite takeaway. Uh, it asks the question, why are you called a Christian? I mean, that's a pretty basic question, right? Why are you called a Christian? And this is the answer that it teaches to give, because by faith I am a member of Christ, and so I share in his anointing. So it's playing on the word Christ here. You know, Christ literally means anointed one, Christ or Messiah, anointed one. And if I am a Christian, a Christian, then I share in his anointing. I am anointed to confess his name, to present myself to him as a living sacrifice of thanks. You know, these this is priestly language here, to strive with a free conscience against sin and the devil in this life. You're shifting now to to uh royal or kingly language, and afterward to reign with Christ over all creation for eternity. Uh so to be a Christian is to share in that that anointing and to be made together as his body a royal priesthood.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about uh words that are used in scripture. So the uh the Greek word for priest is um Harius, from which we uh several English words are derived. And uh you may recognize just in the sound of it that it's it's uh one of the words or forms of that old Greek word is our English word hierarchy, uh, which uh refers to a well in English a sacred ruler. That's what the um the etymology of it from go going back to Latin and Greek, general use means a sacred ruler, but uh in scripture it's used particularly not as a ruler, but more as a mediator, a servant. So the New Testament uses another word that we have um uh that we translate as deacon, uh uh as a servant, a minister, and it molds these two concepts together in priesthood. A priesthood is a public figure who is a mediator, but not a ruler, uh he is a servant. And so this doctrine of the priesthood of believers, uh as uh Hans Kung says it in his uh book, The Church, uh he says that the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers is what keeps ecclesiology from becoming hierarchology, from equating ecclesia with hierarchy. Uh it is what keeps that from happening. Now, if you know anything about Hans Kung, he's a Roman Catholic, all right. So this is pretty uh amazing that he he says this. And uh in fact, he just passed away not too long ago. But uh I think that's very profound, and as Protestants, we can say, yes, exactly, that's exactly what we believe as as Protestants, and this fact is one of the reasons we are Protestants. Now, but this there's another point here. This this word for priest, uh Harius, is not used anywhere in the New Testament to describe someone who holds office in the church. Um, it's not an office uh like uh episcopace or uh Dioconos or uh the you know the other other words are that seem to indicate that people are to be appointed to these offices. Uh priest is never used that way. Um it's never used to speak of someone who has exclusive privileges of the church, rather, it's used several places to refer to to believers in general.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh so a couple points. I think you make a good point that even Roman Catholics affirm uh the priesthood of all believers. Someone someone said something like uh the Roman Catholic Church has always affirmed the priesthood of all believers, it's questionable whether they ever believed it. So, you know, certainly they they wouldn't uh they wouldn't uh you know formulate it in the same way that we would. Uh it's so plainly scriptural, right, that that the whole church uh is characterized um by this priesthood. How then we actually deploy that in the life of the church is where we we have this you know this departure. And um and I think you pointed to the real difference is whether or not that the ordained class within the church, uh whatever you call them, elders, you know, priests, um, whether or not that they have some kind of essential difference from the laity, or whether or not they just merely have a difference in function. Um so let's talk about this a little bit before we get into Luther and the Protestant movement and how Luther deploys his doctrine. Let's talk about this issue of the priestly um class, because it's interesting to me that when we think about priests, we think you know, Roman Catholic, but of course the Anglican tradition refers to ordained ministers as priests. And uh the way, you know, the way I understand it is that like in the Anglican tradition, if Revelation says that we are all priests to God, um, then the when this priesthood as a community is exercised, we appoint certain people from among us to represent us in carrying out some of those priestly duties. And so when we call them priests, we're not setting them apart from the laity as though they are essentially different, but we're acknowledging that they're exercising certain priestly functions. And so their priesthood is an extension of the priesthood of the community. You know, what do you think about that idea?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes. So Isaiah 61, I think it is, uh, where Isaiah says, you know, you shall be called the priest of the Lord, and then he follows up that with that with a pretty much a definition. You know, you shall speak as the ministers of God, or you should be spoken of as the ministers of God, the servants of God. So you know the what we have in our church structure today, and have for centuries, is you know a group of people that we call pastors uh or overseers who are dedicated, full-time dedicated to service. And I think it's so important for us to to distinguish this uh almost secularized concept of priest as ruler from the sacred and biblical concept of priest as as servant. As pastors, we are full-time servants, not rulers. And so any distinction between laity and clergy, for instance, that has been made through again through centuries, is not one of priesthood per se. It is one of who are we appointing as our uh as the the representative servant, so to speak, and that may not even be the right word representative, but as the full-time servant for this local congregation, uh, to make sure that this body carries out the church's responsibilities in our community. Um so it's it is a um, yes, an appointment, uh, yes, a recognition of clergy, but it is as ministers or servants of God, not as as rulers. And and the Bible uses priestly language for a lot of uh a lot of the activities that are supposed to be happening in the church uh that are uh perhaps um you know the pastor may lead that charge or uh the other believers in the church carry these responsibilities out. Uh we'll we'll touch on those throughout this this uh episode here, but obviously preaching, for instance, would be one of those. One of the chief senses in which priests are uh believers are priests, is that we bear Christian witness. So the classic text in first uh 1 Peter 2.9, uh which by the way is the uh key verse for our school here. Um but 2.9 it says we are a kingdom of priests, right? A holy nation. And it's drawing from that Exodus 19 language uh that that believers are uh to to proclaim the excellencies of God. That's Christian witness. We are every believer is to preach, is to exclaim, is to is to proclaim, uh to announce uh the gospel, to announce the truth, the beautiful truth about God. Every believer is supposed to do that. Uh, but then of course we have in worship gatherings of believers, we have you know a person who preaches. Uh but that's just a sermon among the many sermons that believers ought to be sharing with the world throughout the week.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so to come back for a minute to this idea um that you mentioned of the way that the you know the ministers relate to the congregation as a whole, when Luther comes along, his problem isn't even with the fact that a priestly class exists. His problem is that what has happened is that uh if there was a time when the priestly class were viewed as an extension of the priesthood of the community and as representing them and exercising certain priestly tasks, it had it had evolved to the point where they were viewed as a completely separate estate, a completely separate class that were essentially different, you know, these kind of like super spiritual, unquestionable authorities that were were fundamentally different from the average uh believer, not just in their function, but in their in their very essence. And so, you know, in 1520, he writes this uh letter to the Christian nobility in Germany. And if I understand it correctly, uh there were Christian nobility who would have had the authority to call the Catholic Church to qu into question, you know, to hold to call a council, like Constantine called a council. But because they, these Christian nobility were not of the spiritual estate, they weren't ordained priests or bishops or the pope, uh, they were told, well, you're not, you know, you don't have the authority to do that. And Luther says, because we all share the priesthood, those who are priests, ordained priests, need to be called to account by the priesthood of as a whole. And so you should exercise this uh authority. But he goes on to say this whoever comes out of the water of baptism can boast that he is already a consecrated priest, bishop, and pope. Um, somebody just pause, I was just gonna keep reading, but let me just pause there and say, you know, for Luther, it's always about you you uh become a priest at your baptism. You know, Jesus was anointed as our priest at his baptism, the Holy Spirit comes down. The waters of baptism are a symbol uh of the Holy Spirit's activity, the one who anoints us. Uh baptism is in scripture the place of our salvation ordinarily. Um, and uh there's a close relationship between believing baptism. So for him, it's it's your baptism is your time of anointing, and there's tradition in the church to actually anoint with oil at baptism in some traditions. So for bap for Luther, it's your baptism, and I think that's significant. The reason why I pause there is baptism is an ecclesial activity. We've really stressed that. You know, you're being baptized by the church into the church. And so I think connecting priesthood to baptism is significant, and there's various scriptural passages where that seems to be the implication. I think it's it's helpful to recenter uh our priesthood on its eccles in its ecclesial context. But uh, but going on with this quote, because I think it's really important here, he says, anyone who comes out of the waters of baptism can say, I'm a priest, bishop, pope, uh, though it is not seemly that everyone should exercise the office. Nay, just because we are all in like manner priests, no one must put himself forward and undertake without our consent and election to do what is in the power of us all. For what is common to all, no one dare take upon himself without the will and command of the community. And should it happen that one chosen for such an office were deposed for malfeasance, he would then be just what he was before he held office. Therefore, a priest in Christendom is nothing else than an office holder. While he is in office, he has precedence. When deposed, he is a peasant or a townsman like the rest. So I understand Luther to be saying, and he gives this illustration that I think is helpful, uh, we all have the power of the priesthood. We are we all share this priesthood, uh, but that doesn't mean that one individual member in isolation from the rest steps out and just does whatever a priest can do without consideration for the community. Um, and he uses this illustration of like 10 sons who are all equal heirs to inheritance. And it would be like, you know, one son stepping out without consideration for the other nine and just doing whatever he wants with the inheritance, you know, buying a big boat or something, you know. That's not how we we exercise this. No, we all get together and we all because we all are equal shares. And the inheritance, and we decide how the inheritance is used. And he says a priest is like one, or we would say an elder or a pastor or a shepherd is like one of those sons being appointed by the other sons to exercise special authority over the inheritance. If that son, you know, squanders the money at any time, they can bring him down from his place of authority if he exercises it outside of biblical, you know, biblical values, they can bring him down and he becomes another son again. It's not like he's has some unique essential difference from the other sons that he can just do whatever he wants. Um, but I think it's significant because Luther's not saying that the corrective to the Roman Catholic abuses is to say, I'm a priest. It's not to relocate the locus of authority and and uh and ministerial exercise to one individual, but it's to say to relocate it to the community. And I think what we've done in in especially 19th, 20th century evangelicalism is we've just shifted the centralization of priestly authority uh to a different place. It's not with the priestly class as it is in the Roman Catholic Church, but it's with individuals instead of the community.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so as you're describing Luther, um first of all, I think you're very charitable to Luther on that, uh, because he did follow up over the next 10 years with several pieces on the same idea. And so about five years later, as I recall, uh maybe even within five years of that work that you mentioned, which was written in response to the Roman Catholic Church, um, he wrote uh, first of all, to um uh again to the nobility, and seemed to really strongly affirm um affirm them. And uh, but there was a a peasant, basically a peasant revolt against the nobility, right? Uh something was happening. I don't recall all the all the circumstances, but the peasants were uh up in arms against the nobles. And um initially, initially Luther actually took their side, uh the peasant's side, but in follow-up letters uh he actually turned, did it about face when once he learned more about the situation, and basically told them, no, you're not allowed to disdepose of them. Uh you have to come under their authority. So he so that that is the beginning of his whole two kingdoms theology, which ends up in, you know uh in the 40s, ends up being used to substantiate acquiescence to Hitler. Um but to your point, uh I think the point that you're making here is again specifically on the priesthood of believers. And so I want to say this. First of all, um, I don't go along with Luther and his understanding of authority. I can go along with him in his uh in that particular understanding at that time of the priesthood of believers. I just don't like how he can how he goes on to develop uh authority in his later works. So anyone that's going to read Luther, read it recognizing that he really begins to develop from that point forward a really crazy, oh I think is a really crazy and dangerous concept of of authority in revolt to the Roman Catholic Church. And ironically, it ends up being not that far off from what he protested against. It's just he displaces um authority from the church to the state, is what he ends up doing.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00In any case, yeah, go ahead. I think the key concern for me is that I hear the Reformation interpreted as Luther trying to get the authority out of the hands of individual priests and back into the hands of individual Christians uh rather than the community as a whole, uh, shifting it back to the church. And Timothy George cites Paul Outhouse, uh, who he calls the great interpreter of Luther's theology. And he says this uh Luther never understands the priesthood of all believers merely in the sense of the Christian's freedom to stand in a direct relationship to God without a human mediator. Rather, he constantly emphasizes the Christian's evangelical authority to come before God on behalf of the brethren and also of the world. The universal priesthood expresses not religious individualism, but its exact opposite, the reality of the congregation as a community. And so it's not about, well, every one of us is a priest, but it's about every one of us is a priest to one another, uh, you know, as a community. All together we share and exercise this priesthood. And I just think in that letter there in 1520, um, what loot how Luther you know treats the relationship between individual priests, you know, or the ordained class to the whole, really draws out that for him, this is about um, even if even if there is a priestly class, it's it's it's about exercising this together as a community.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's great. Um I agree. The challenge with Paul Althouse is that he supported Hitler and his right to power. So this is really interesting too. I don't think we anticipated the twist in this coming. But it's really interesting because um you know we we know anyone who has any sort any knowledge of working knowledge of Reformation Protestant theology and history knows that the priesthood of believers is is a big deal for Calvin and for Luther, well, for Luther and then Calvin and then on into you know later Reform theology. Uh so it's a big deal, but it's very interesting to see uh this doctrine in the hands of Luther and Lutherans and see this in the hands of say Calvin and Reform because they're gonna come to very different places on this. And I don't think I recognize even until this actually right now in this conversation, how much overlap there is between their uh their doctrine of the priesthood of all believers and their understanding of the role of the church uh in the state, uh the role of believers with in in broader culture. And I I think that's yeah, there's really interest there's a lot there that that uh that we should discuss. Uh but I again coming back to your point um of a the the role distinction between pastors and laity, those are the words I used earlier, that this is not a a role of rulership, but it is one believer among believers, one member among members who is appointed by the body to uh to carry out responsibilities on behalf of the body. Yes, but also to rule, right?
SPEAKER_00Depends on what you mean by it. Like First Timothy 5 17 says, let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of the priests.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you're talking as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes. So I and I know you affirm that. I I think I know what you're trying to say, um, but I would want to say too that in new the New Testament ministry, it's it's a royal priesthood, right? So the the priestly exercise of service, you know, comes with authority. And when that is authority that's recognized by the consent of the governed, you know, of the body as a whole, it does come with a certain level. And I and I think again, like at more of a practical level, like the pastors have been their ministerial authority has been so diminished, and some of that comes because of the abuses, and those are the kind of things I think you're concerned about, you know, and I understand that, but it also can cripple good, you know, well-intentioned, good-hearted pastors to where their authority is almost completely stripped, and it's just, you know, there's one voice among many, uh, their leadership isn't taken seriously.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So so there is this tension, even in scripture, between dominion and domination. And that tension is seen throughout, I mean, every episode of rulership in scripture uh is just you have that, you know, so believers are called to have dominion, but not to dominate each other. And so that's why Peter says, you know, that the pastors are to uh are are to act, but not in a domineering way, right? And that's why Galatians 6, when it comes to to restoration, um, the restoration is to be offered, but with gentleness, uh, meaning not with a domineering spirit. Right. So there is this there is this tension which which leads me then to say, okay, yes, there is authority. You know, so Matthew 18, authority is given to Christ in heaven and on earth, and he extends that to all believers who have one of our priestly duties is to baptize. So any believer, every believer is entrusted with the authority to baptize, for instance. Um, but we uh as pastors, then we have to recognize that the authority that we exercise is a derived authority. We are acting on behalf of Christ and his church and not certainly not unilaterally. And so when we talk about restoration, one of the things we'll talk about is that there are certain responsibilities that pastors have that cannot be carried out unilaterally. Whereas there are other duties in which a pastor may act alone. And so, yes, there is uh there is a sense of rulership there. I just know that in our in our uh leadership focused uh hierarchical type of society, when you talk about rulership, when you even when you talk about dominion, immediately images of domination come to mind rather than servant servant leadership or service. Uh, and and I think we need a little bit of a change of mindset on that in order to really understand the biblical presentation of the uh the offices and the roles and the responsibilities of pastors and all believers as as described in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just came across this uh yet was it no, it was Monday. Uh somebody sent me a uh passage they were reading, and you know, he was arguing the church does not have a kingly ministry, it has a priestly ministry and a prophetic ministry. And the points he were making, very similar, you know, I think the concern is that if we view ourselves as having kingly authority or as kings, you know, it's going to be abused. But I have to say, I just don't think that's biblical. I mean, first of all, our priesthood is a royal priesthood. And if if participation in Christ's priesthood doesn't undermine his unique role as our high priest, why would participation in his kingship undermine his unique role as the one and only Lord? So this author seemed to see, like, if if we have a kingly ministry, somehow that's a threat to the absolute and unique authority of Christ. But if that's the case, why would our priestly ministry, you know, not undermine his unique and only role as the one and only mediator, right? Or as the one, you know, our only great high priest. So I think we participate in the kingly, but the key is that our authority, as Paul says, is used for building up, not for tearing down. It is, it is a servant authority, it is a servant rulership. We rule as servants for the good of the body. But I just I don't want to lose, I don't want to overcorrect and lose the the royal character of the church or the the authority of um you know of ministers as representatives of the congregation.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So so to be clear, the Bible does speak of the Old Testament people of God in Exodus 19 6. I mentioned 1 Peter 2 9. So the Old Testament people of God and the New Testament people of God are all called a kingdom of priests. There is a kingly royal role there, metaphor, and there is a priestly metaphor. Um but but none of that, uh all of that is in our identity in Christ. So Christ is repeatedly called the high priest, right, in Hebrews, repeatedly called the high priest. You know, his sacrifice is completely sufficient. Uh he is Christ's priesthood is uh to use the Latin phrase satisfacent, which is uh it's enough. He has he has done enough uh so that nothing more that what I can do or that you can do can make uh our access to God greater than what the Spirit has made it through Christ. Does that make sense? Absolutely. So but that does not diminish then the the role that uh that is given to believers so that James can say, confess your sins one to another, or Paul can say in Galatians 6, uh, you know, if if a fellow brother and sister falls into sin or becomes entrapped in sin, those of you who are spiritually mature, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness or gentleness. Um so there's there's restoration, there is confession of sin, there is uh there is the preaching, there's quish Christian witness, uh, there is uh Christian worship, right? Uh in Hebrews 13. You know, offer up the sacrifices of praise to God continually, right? Uh you mentioned Romans 12:1, uh sort of the uh more personal nature of presenting our own bodies as a living sacrifice. That's priestly language, presenting ourselves, our our very selves, as uh as the sacrifice. So we are, in a sense, priests offering ourselves as the sacrifice to God. There is um you know the the priesthood of all believers is significant in that the spirit or Christ has opened up the the most holy place so that we have direct access to God, right? We have direct access through the Son in the Spirit. Uh we have I mentioned baptism, that's another uh role of believers, a priestly role of believers. We have uh authority in Matthew 18, 8, uh 19, and uh well that whole passage 18 through 20, really, and then John 20, 23, uh where there is entrusted to the church the authority to declare sins forgiven, or John 20, 23, we really stumble over this one, or to declare that sins are not forgiven. Right. Right? That's a that's a big one. We need to talk about that. Uh we'll get to that perhaps sometime later. Uh there's intercessory prayer, which is another priestly function. Uh one that I think is somewhat controversial in the history of the church is is the Eucharist. Um that I don't I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament of the Lord's Supper being described as a um as a sacrifice, it is it's not presented to us as a sacrifice, but uh within some of those early centuries, probably the third or fourth century, uh some of the early fathers began referring to the Lord's Supper as a as a new sacrifice, a re-sacrifice of Christ. And so if if someone takes takes the Lord's Supper as that, uh that would be priestly. I don't take it that way, but uh that would uh certainly add to the priestly roles as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so let's uh let's try and unpack some of that. So why don't we start with baptism? Because that'll bring us to the issue of the keys, which is where I wanted to go next. Um you talked about how you know every believer has the authority to baptize, um, but it's only done ordinarily by those who are ordained as ministers over the congregation. Um so this to bring this brings me back to Luther. You know, Luther says Um, in cases of necessity, it is because through baptism, all of us are consecrated to the priesthood, that in cases of necessity, anyone can baptize and give absolution, which would be impossible unless we are all priests. But this comes back to the point that I was making about you know the ten sons who share the inheritance. Um, just because we all have that power doesn't mean it's right for us to just go do it. It wouldn't be right for me to just go baptize somebody in my community. You know, a neighbor go comes the Lord, and hey, let's just get out of the river and I'll just baptize you, right? Um, no. Why not? Well, that's that's Luther's very point, is that the Christian ministry has been ordained as rep to represent the community priests as a whole and to fulfill certain functions. So it would lack the authorization of the community if it was exercised by one member in isolation from the others. Um, but that's why these these men who have been appointed by the consent of the whole are the ones who who represent the church in exercising its priestly authority in baptism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I agree with that. So I would say, so we'll have a baptismal, uh, a couple of baptisms this coming Sunday, uh, but uh I will use a lay person uh in in probably both of those baptisms. Um but it will be done in the community, right? It will be done with the body, and the body will affirm the baptism, will give a a responsive affirmation of these persons being baptized. So on the other hand, we the pastors of our community have had this conversation because we had a a man who uh a layman who was going into the jail, local jail, and was baptizing people in the local jail. And several of the pastors uh complained to me as a chaplain saying, hey, we this shouldn't I was like, I'm I'm not okay with it, but I don't have the authority to stop it. Um I'm not the lead chaplain. So um uh it was stopped, but there was a there were a lot of problems with it, and pastors had different pastors had different problems, but the main thing was uh that I heard was he's he's not a pastor. The other thing I did here, which I agreed with, the second point, was he's not baptizing them within the body, it's an isolation from the local church. That needs to be done in the local church. I agree with that second point. Uh I don't necessarily I don't agree with the first point. I do agree with the second point. It wasn't being done within the and of course he was being manipulated. I mean, many of these people have been baptized, you know, four or five times. Uh they knew that it would get them, you know, out of their cell for a while or something. And so he was being manipulated. But I think that second point is very valid, and which is also why we've had this discussion, right, about baptisms outside of the local church. Um, even if it is, you know, if it's you or if it's me uh taking someone away from the local church and having a baptism, uh that's that's problematic uh because this is something that is to be taking place within the local body. It's so important. So then I did I lead us into totally different conversation or between the church.
SPEAKER_00I think that's I think it's helpful because um we have this conversation where where we're trying to get here, I think the main point is that the church's character has a priestly character, and this priesthood is really, really vital to our understanding of so many things that the church does from corporate worship um to corporate holiness. You know, we are the holy ones, we're all holy ones, we're all set apart to the offering of our bodies, a living sacrifice. You know, we just sang Sunday morning at our church. I br we bring this, we bring the sacrifice of praise. You know, our worship is praise. All these things that we do. And when it comes to an issue like that's so vite, so basic, so vital as uh dealing with sin in our lives and helping one another, um, the priesthood of all believers does not mean I just go to my prayer closet and I sort out all my sin issues with Jesus and I confess my sin directly to him. And as long as me and Jesus are okay, the church doesn't really have a role in that. I don't need to go to a priest, I don't need to, you know, it's no, that's actually not true. I do need to go to a priest, but not necessarily one who belongs to the special priestly class. I need to go to somebody else in the congregation. I need to go to other priests in the community, and we need to serve one another as priests. I need to go to somebody and say, hey, brother, I'm I'm not okay. I need help. Will you pray with me? I need to confess my sins to others in the community. And if I need some kind of formal restoration, if I've been caught in a sin and of an addictive nature, then I think that that restoration ought to be overseen by those who have been ordained from among the community to represent the church in carrying out some of its priestly functions, um, especially the exercise of the keys in the sacraments. Um, so I think that the reason why it's important for us to try to work towards clarifying the relationship between the shared priesthood and its and ministerial authority, those are being is because when we try to actually carry out worship or um, you know, restoration or any of these issues, um, it can, we can shift it from, okay, it's not just me and Jesus, but as long as I go to anyone in the congregation and confess my sins, my pastor doesn't need to have a role in that. And I want to say, no, I think that that a pastor is one that maybe we're not calling them priests like in the Anglican tradition, but we're acknowledging that they have a special role in helping us to exercise our corporate priestly duties.
SPEAKER_02Is that is that fair? Yeah, yeah. Let me let me latch on to a phrase you use there that I think is uh leads us into an important distinction. So you mentioned ministerial authority. Let me just change that word a little bit and say ecclesial authority, authority that has been derived from or entrusted by Christ to the church. Uh that's ecclesial authority. That is uh the you know Paul gives to Timothy instructions as to what Timothy as a pastor is to do, what he has the authority to do, what he has the responsibility to do, and so forth. All right, that's all you know, pastoral or ecclesial authority. There is no pastoral authority outside of ecclesial authority. Right. All right, so so I don't even like to taught pastoral authority can be taken very individualistic, it can tend towards domination. So we are carrying out as pastors, we're carrying out the authority of the church. We've been appointed by the body to carry out the authority of the church, but that is distinguished then in scripture from apostolic authority. So, for instance, you know, as I was just giving that little uh piece about baptism and the role of baptism, uh, you know, the public nature of baptism, um, I have to qualify that by answering the question that will come along. No, wait a second, uh, didn't Philip baptize someone on his own, you know, apart from they were nowhere near a congregation. Um, and I always say we definitely have instances of Paul, of Peter, of uh Philip in this case, and and probably some others exercising apostolic authority. And that is God uh through uh has entrusted to them something that's setting the foundation just as the prophets did in the old testament. They're setting the foundation for what will become ecclesial authority. And so some of the things that we're gonna talk about in the follow-up episodes here are have to do with uh the authority that comes to the church from Christ through the apostles and their writings and scripture to the church. And so when Christ tells his disciples in Matthew 16 or in Matthew 18 or in John 20 that whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, whatever you loosen on earth is loosed in heaven, I mean he's given that to the apostles, but then by extension to the church. Right. And that's part of what we mean when we say we are, you know, one holy Catholic and apostolic church. You know, that's what we believe. We believe one holy Catholic apostolic church, and we exercise our priestly duties through the ecclesial authority that we have together, and none of us have in isolation or individually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. And that authority which the church shares uh is invested in ministerial authorities, right? Who bear that authority. So we can we can speak of ministerial authority, we just have to always be clear that it is derived. It is a derivative authority. So maybe we that's a nice mouthful, but derivative ministerial, you know, something derivative ministerial authority.
SPEAKER_02The direction matters. The direction matters. Yes, it does. We we you know, so let's move this to a context that I think is familiar with a lot of people, and that is uh the state, right? So in in our nation, we elect a president, right? In many ways, we can tell the president what to do and what not to do, but in so many ways we can't.
unknownRight, right.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_02So so there is so the president has derived authority, and yet once we've elected a president, there are many ways in which we it's out of our control, right? So that that definitely there's it that's not dissimilar to how relationships are in the church. Uh, but even more so ought that sacred office to be viewed through the service uh through the eyes of servant and and a deacon type ministry than than otherwise.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think we are um we're trying to flesh out or pull on different sides of the balanced tension. And this is like a really important balanced tension because you know, on the one side, as we said, we have had there's been so many abuses of ministerial authority that people are gun shy. But on the other side, we live in a day in which um there's very little respect for the ministerial office. I mean, there's there's very little sense of its authority in the church. And I just know so many, you know, lay people who operate their daily lives like little popes, and it creates endless problems for the local church. Um, so I think, I think, yeah, you you I really like you, you how did you say that? Direction matters. You know, I think we need to we need to really think about that. Christ invests authority in the apostles, the apostolic authority is then transferred to the church because we are the apostolic church. The church, by its consent, elects certain officials uh to hold office. They are not of a different essential quality than the lay people because we all share the priesthood, but they are different in their office. That office comes with derived authority, and that authority includes ordinarily the public exposition of the word and the administration of the sacraments, first and foremost. Baptism and the Lord's Supper being the ways in which we primarily exercise the office of the keys to let people in and out of the kingdom, in through baptism, out through excommunication or exclusion from communion. Um, and that's something that no one congregation member would ever take upon himself to do under ordinary circumstances. Is that a fair summary of where we're at so far?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And so I let me just add this then on top of that, and that uh the particular priestly duty of a pastor is, and at least this duty is enhanced in the pastoral ministry, is the guardianship, uh, the theological guardianship of the church, the integrity of the church, the integrity of the preaching and the um evangelism of the church, because that pastor ought to be one who is trained in uh scripture and theology and ought to lead that charge, and that pastor ought to be trusted with that, insofar as that pastor is ministering within a broader community of ministers, right? So this is where independent churches can really, really fall fall fast, is when you know the pastor basically becomes the owner of the church and is a theological maverick with no one to hold him accountable. So that's why I think whether and I I pastor an independent church, but you know, I am part personally part of a church group that I that holds me accountable. So I have to affirm you know, an articles of faith that's beyond my local church. I think that's so important. And I think that comes back in our day to people recognizing and respecting the pastor's role and and yes, even expertise in exegeting scripture uh and preaching the word and the teaching ministry, which is a biblical requirement for the pastor. Uh in our day, everyone is an expert in everything, right? Uh you're you when social media conversation turns to theology, suddenly everybody's a an expert in theology. When it turns to uh you know to foreign foreign affairs, everyone becomes suddenly it's as if they'd spent half their life as an ambassador somewhere. Uh if if it's you know, we have COVID, suddenly everyone becomes a medical expert. It's but that's the culture we live in, right? It is a and this is not only for pastors, that's what we're talking about, but people in various fields who uh you know are involved in social media, they they experience this as well. But our concern is for pastors that uh there is a general disrespect for uh for a person's uh focus and the fact that they're investing their life significant hours every week reading and studying God's word and trying to work out the applications in real life, and then with just a a click can be discounted entirely, right? Um and so, and one of the reasons we're talking about the priesthood of believers, that can be done under the sanctimonious attitude of, well, you know, we we all have equal access to God, which they take as meaning we all have equal understanding or our opinions all are equal on this matter. No, it's not. And I think what you're pushing on, I think is valid as well that you're saying that there is something about the appointment of pastors that validates the word preached and the word teached as authoritative over someone else's word who has not been appointed appointed to that office.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and this so this is a discussion. We need to have a whole discussion on this because we go down this this trail, we'll be here forever. Because this is this is like a huge question, right? Related to the priesthood of all believers. How does this relate to the interpretation of scripture? And uh, you want to talk about when where everybody's a little pope, this is the place. You know, I read this in the Bible and I had the Holy Spirit and he illuminated me, and this is what God told me. God told me this, right? I I get so tired of hearing that when people get up to you know testify or whatever, because what you're really almost implicitly saying is if you disagree with me, you're disagreeing with God. Whoa, that's not the right posture. Priesthood of all believers mean I come into the community and I say, hey, because I share in the priesthood, I've been reading my Bible, and here's what I believe it says. And now I I what do you think about that? You know, and and especially to my pastor, what do you think about that? Because he's the one among the congregation, or I should say pastors plural. The pastors are the one who have been tested and have already been established that they are able to teach. That qualification, they so then when it comes to interpretation, I ought to be looking to them. I ought to be relying on them. Um, and that's why that qualification is so, so vital. And I think we have a lot of pastors, and that this is this is part of the problem, maybe, at least as I've seen it worked out. We do have, I think, unfortunately, some people in the pastoral office who are not able to teach. And so we have ordinary Christians who have gone to their pastors, their pastors can't help them. They aren't, they aren't faithfully exercising their office. And so then they look to other sources other than the local church, and then they become their own kind of center of authority. So, yeah, we need to have a whole discussion on this because I think this again is really practical ramifications.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, there are a tremendous amount of implications for for preaching ministry, especially, uh, but even outside of the pulpit uh for how we uh minister and the other aspects of of local church ministry. So, yeah, let's come back to that. And again, I think we had our eyes set uh over perhaps the next few episodes to to really bring this into application uh with the role of the church in keeping and restoring from sin. I think that's one that is uh frequently overlooked in the church, but that's a a particular priestly duty that we have as believers to one another. And just as a preface for that conversation, I want to say this is a duty of every believer that we do look out for one another's brothers and sisters. This is not just the responsibility of the pastor. We must keep and restore one another from sin. Yeah, that God help us to really carry out that priestly responsibility to his glory.
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