John 20:23, the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Fear of Church Authority

In this episode, David Fry and Johnathan Arnold discuss several questions about concerns about a recent article on "The Church’s Authority and Responsibility to Forgive Sins." Topics addressed include:

• The church's authority to forgive sins (John 20:23)
• The office of the keys (Matthew 16; 18)
• Corporate salvation
• The sacraments and excommunication
• Protestant vs. Catholic understandings of the church and its leaders
• Sacerdotalism
• The abuse of church authority
• Abusus non tollit usum ("abuse does not take away use")
• Spirit-filled exercise of authority
• Using authority for building up, not tearing down (2 Cor. 13:10)
• Eldership requirements

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

I can affirm that it is God alone who forgives sins, and at the same time say it is also given to the church to make proclamations of sins forgiven or not.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

People got hit by the hammer of ecclesiasticality, and so they're they're not actually hearing what's being said because they've never seen it use constructive.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

You're listening to the Holy Joyce Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice for a Holy Happy Church.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Alright, so we're here to discuss the church's authority and responsibility to forgive sins, not a challenging topic at all. It's one of those subjects that we want to tread carefully, reverently, uh with humility, uh, because we do believe that it's taught in Scripture, especially John 20.23, which we're going to be talking about here in a moment. But recently, October 13th, earlier this month, published an article by that title that expounds uh John 2023 in light of parallel passages in Matthew, especially Matthew 18, Matthew 16, um, but also uh quite a few other passages like in uh 1 Corinthians and throughout the New Testament that help us to develop a theology of the church, its uh relationship to salvation, its relationship to represent Christ as his body, right? Christ the head and the church the body being the full Christ, the whole Christ, representing Jesus, uh an extension of his authority. And um, and of course, you know, it's a it's a subject that um has created some questions, some concerns even. And so we're gonna just do our best to try to talk through some of those legitimate concerns, legitimate questions, but questions that we've wrestled with, you know, ourselves, not questions that we're unaware of. Um so John 2023, we'll just read it and then uh maybe we can talk about it a little bit. But John 2023 says, if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them. If you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. And uh reading Scott McKnight's book right now, The Blue Parakeet, this is one of those blue parakeets, you know, one of those birds. It came to his bird feeder. He says, A blue parakeet came to his bird feeder one day. This doesn't fit, this doesn't belong here, right? And uh he said, this must be a bird that escapes somebody's house. And so he tried to catch it, he tried to tame it, he tried to control it, it didn't work. And he learned to just sit back, uh, sip his coffee, and appreciate it for what it was, let it affect him. And this is one of those passages that, you know, way we get in there as evangelicals, you know, passionate about justification by faith alone, which I am too. I just wrote a, you know, 21 word, 21, uh, 2100-word essay on that, right? Very passionate about the solace. Teach them every year around Reformation time, make sure we bring them back, you know, to the attention of the church. Um, but very easy to get in there and just want to grab that blue parakeet, grab that and just tame it and control it and just push it down and not let it say what it says. But I think if we're willing to come to it honestly, we can see that that uh it's a doorway to an area of theology that I think we've neglected and can actually be a path towards um maybe fleshing out our theology, expanding it a bit, and arriving at something a lot healthier.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

If I saw a blue parakeet, I I'm a bird watcher. I enjoy watching birds. I even you know keep track of what I see. But if I see something like that, uh one thing I'm not going to do is just turn my face away and not pay attention to it. Uh John 20, 23 is one of those passages. It's a difficult passage. So no one is saying that's not. Uh it's a difficult passage, but we don't have the option of ignoring it. And it is difficult because it touches on at least two, if not three or more, uh challenging concepts already. Uh you mentioned uh you mentioned one, and then you made allusion to a passage that includes the other. One is what does it mean when Paul says in Ephesians 1 that the church is the fullness of Christ? Uh what does that mean? And secondly, uh the exercise of the keys. Uh, you mentioned Matthew 16, 18, and 19. Uh, what does it mean to exercise the keys? What does that give us access to? And how does that relate to the authority of Christ and the authority of the church? Uh in John 20, 23, as well as uh these other passages that will come up, uh particularly in regard to uh the relationship of the keys of the kingdom, uh Jesus is touching on the relationship of heaven and earth, the relationship of the king, God, and his kingdom revealed on earth, the church. Kingdom revealed through the church. Uh the church does not comprehend the entirety of the rule of God on earth, but it is the visible manifestation of it. And so the church has a unique role, and that's how we need to be reading John 20, 23. So we probably ought to start by connecting them very carefully, connecting John 20, 23 to Matthew 16, 18, and 19, and Matthew 18, 15 through 20. Uh, do you want to lead us through that?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

So I've taken one approach to making the connection in the article, um, but I would be you know interested in hearing how you approach that because I know that you you teach this in, I think, your membership class, right? So I'd be very curious to hear, you know, what is your your approach to to bridging those passages, which have, by the way, have always been read together. I mean, this is you know true long, long tradition here.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Right. So the uh John 2023 does not make any mention of the words uh binding, loosing, or uh the word key uh is absent here. Uh but when we begin in Matthew 16, particularly 18 and 19, where Jesus is uh giving explicitly the keys to the kingdom to to Peter as the leader of the apostles, uh of the disciples at that point, uh he is giving the keys to Peter and uh through him to the church for a particular reason, and he calls that binding and loosing. We which, by the way, is picking up on an old testament concept. Uh, we'll get there in a in a minute. Then we go a couple of chapters later, Matthew 18, where there's a specific church discipline matter. That's the context. Uh a brother has been offended. What do you do? It Jesus is talking about the role of the church then, and again picks up on this binding and loosing uh language, but now specifically in the context of church discipline. So we know, therefore, that binding and loosing has something to do with church discipline. And we know that church discipline has to do with uh what to do when sin arises within the church, when a brother or sister is sinning uh against someone else within the church. So when we come to John 20, 23 and uh sorry, and Matthew 18, then the binding and loosing is connected to uh forgiveness or or considering them now outside the church as a Gentile or tax collector. And so John 20, 23 is very abbreviated, but it doesn't have we don't have near as much detail, but the language is even stronger. Uh the language which you read of you know, whatever sin or whoever sin you forgive, they are forgiven. And but which by the way, we we're we're okay with that. We have a lot of explanations for that, right? But it's the second part that's troublesome, uh, especially, and that is who sends you withhold uh when you withhold forgiveness, it's it's withheld. Uh it's withheld where? It's withheld in heaven. So it's speaking of the relationship of the reign of God in heaven and then manifested on earth through the church, particularly as it regards sin and forgiveness. So we're going to talk more detail about what that means because that sounds very alarming. And it ought to. It ought to raise alarms. It ought to be sounding uh, you know, some bells and it ought to be flashing some lights at us, because at the very least, it speaks of the incredible responsibility and role that that Christ has entrusted to his spirit-filled church after to carry on after his incarnate life here on earth. So a lot of details there to unpack. But that's how I make those connections. What do you have to add?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, so um you mentioned that the second half of that verse is the part that that tends to trouble people the most. One of the most common ways that I hear people trying to tame the blue parakeet, so to speak, um, is is by saying that Jesus here is, he's sending them out to preach, you know, the Father has sent him, I s, you know, I'm sending you. This is like great commission here, go preach the gospel to every creature. And so, you know, all Jesus is is saying here is just simply, you know, you know, when the church proclaims uh the gospel, they're offering people the forgiveness of sins through the message of the gospel. Um, and and that's that's all that it means. But the problem with that, of course, is it John's saying more than that. It's pretty obvious, I think. But then also he's he's going on to say, uh, state this negatively. Clearly, there's there's there's something more going on here. There's something more to what John is saying. And he uses the language of the church forgiving. They're actually, this is an action of the church. This isn't just the proclamation of a message. This is the action of the church. And so then when you look at, you say, okay, well, where else do we see something like this? Um, it's it's very easy to connect the, there's the both the positive and the negative aspect here. Um, there's the um the the binding, the loosing, there's the extension of forgiveness, the withholding of forgiveness, um, there's the the sacramental aspect of it. Um, you know, if you bring in the theology of Paul that we are one body because there's one bread, then exclusion from the body in Matthew 18 must include exclusion from the bread and the cup. And the cup, Jesus said, is forgiveness in my blood. So excommunication includes, you know, saying to this person, we are no longer extending forgiveness of sins to you. That's not to say, and this is where Protestants differ from Roman Catholics and the Reformers were really clear on this. That's not to say that forgiveness is so inextricably linked to the sacraments that if the church errs, makes a mistake, and excommunicates somebody who really is a true believer, you know, inwardly part of the mystical body of Christ, that then that person cannot by any other means be saved. But by excluding them from the ordinary means, the sacraments, the church makes this proclamation. So I I tend to make a you know more that take that more sacramental route. Um, but I think either way, uh just building a case that it's pretty hard to not make the connection there.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah, so I definitely want to unpack that as we go through this. Uh there's a again, there's a lot there. And one of the reasons there's a lot there is because there has been uh wrong excommunication uh through the history of the church, right? And there are so many examples. Uh so it's it's clear to us as Protestants that the church is not infallible. Uh but we we have to get into fallibility and infallibility. We got to get into sacerdotalism and the doctrine which is held by Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and by the way, the Church of England. Uh they all uh affirm a some version of sacredotalism. Uh so we'll get into that. Uh but let's let's step back just a little bit because I think the big question that needs to be asked to kind of introduce something like John 20, 23 is is this, at least this is the way I've I've put it. How does Christ continue to exercise his lordship in the church after his resurrection? He does so first by giving the Holy Spirit. And we'll talk about John 20, 22 in just a moment. Uh but but this is a big question. How does Christ exercise his lordship in the church after his resurrection? Another way he does that is Matthew 16 and him preparing the church for his his absence uh by giving the keys to the kingdom. And uh so let's just briefly describe the keys. The keys in the ancient uh world they symbolize access, particularly access to power, the ability to shut doors or to open doors to provide access or not. Uh that's the symbol. And so possessing the keys, as uh Grant Osborne tells us in his commentary, uh, possessing the keys means having considerable authority. And uh it's interesting that John in his book of Revelation, twice he refers to uh the passage in Isaiah, and it slipped my mind uh what chapter it is, but the passage there in Isaiah where Eliakim is given the keys as the chief steward of Hezekiah's household, and Hezekiah tells Eliakim, you know, here are the here's a key to the house of David. Whatever, whatever you open, no one can shut, and whatever you shut, no one can open. So you remember John picks up on that language a couple of times in the book of Revelation, and it's the same idea that Jesus is picking up on in Matthew 16, that the keys is uh giving someone the power of the keys is uh him authorizing Peter and the apostles and through them the church to exercise uh the continuation of Christian authority within uh within the world. So uh this idea of possessing keys, it runs through scripture more than what we realize. And once we begin to get a grip on uh the role of the church as a manifestation of Christian authority, uh we begin to see uh these these subtleties. It's not just in the New Testament, this is Old Testament as well. God uh giving, ordaining, setting up people, uh you know, the nation of Israel, and then individuals even to take a role in uh his rule uh on earth.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, so I I like uh the illustration that uh we we use in this article of of marriage, how there's authority, the authority of a minister to marry someone, and we we say so-and-so married my wife and I. And we understand that when they say that, uh, they don't mean that somehow the authority of marriage, which is this God-ordained thing, you know, lies in the hands of men. Ultimately, it's it's God's say-so that matters, right? It's what God but God has ordained certain ways, you know, for to extend this covenant to people. So it's it's it's we're obeying God's plan for how marriage is to be you know carried out and the covenants to be made. And there's also the secular authority that comes into this, right? So we also understand that just because someone has the authority to hold a wet a wedding ceremony, they've gotten their little certificate in the mail, maybe they complete a little course online or or they're an ordained minister or whatever, it also doesn't mean that they can just suddenly set the conditions uh or or carry this out without regard to the state's requirements. So insofar as a minister acts in harmony with the state and in harmony with God's ordained purposes for marriage, then those people are married. Um and so it's similar when we say that Christ is exercising his lordship in the world through the church, uh, the head is acting through the body, which are his hands and his feet. We're not saying that the body now suddenly has like this absolute authority to act in any way that it wants, and whatever the church does represents whatever Christ does. Of course, we know that. It's insofar as the body is acting in harmony with the head, insofar as the church, uh, you know, the people of the kingdom are acting in harmony with the king and carrying out things according to his ordained plan and in his spirit and in the fullness of his spirit, that then um the church's actions actually accomplish something because they're actually acting as representatives of or be on behalf of uh the authority of the king. So I think clarifying the relationship of authority there and its exercises is really vital.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Right. So Grant Osborne says on on this passage, he says the church exists on earth, but with a heavenly authority behind it. So I uh picking up on your illustration of uh the image of marriage, uh Christ's lordship in the church is primarily about a structure of care which he provides to believers through the community. Uh the church is not uh the church is not Christ. Again, Paul says the you know the church is the fullness of Christ, all right, but we do not get into you know some sort of you know ontological confusion here, all right. The church is not Christ, but it carries out the fullness, it gets continues the mission and the witness and the authority of Christ. But the the authority of the church is always derived, it's never absolute. So while the language sounds so absolute, uh for instance in John 20, 23, uh we should not be so presumptive as to think that God is bound subsequently to accept whatever arbitrary decision is made within the church. Right. Yes, exactly. So and that and and that then is because the church is fallible.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah. Yeah. I just I don't want to get too far away from that first comment that you made. I think you made a really important point there, but it needs, I think, even like a further qualification clarification, because this is a concept that that we don't hear a lot about, especially among Protestants, and that is how the body of Christ and Christ relate ontologically. Yes, there's a sense in which Christ, the church is not Christ, but it's like me saying, I am not my wife. Like I'm not my wife. However, however, even though that's true, it's also true that scripture says we are one flesh, right? That however I treat the flesh of my wife, it's as though I'm treating my flesh that way. And so even though the church is not Christ, Scripture also says if you persecute the church, you persecute Christ.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

If you hate the church, you hate Christ. If you walk away from the church, you walk away from Christ. Um, so there are there is a long tradition of actually saying, like, oh yeah, I I don't under like, I mean, I think is it uh oh Juliana Norwich? Who who is it that says like uh I do I do not claim to understand the mystery of Christ in his body, but this I know, I am Christ. And I'm like, oh, you know, but but yet there's a long tradition of speaking. Like that. It's like, and it makes you nervous, but what they're doing is they're leaning into those passages, and they're trying to kind of in almost in a provocative way cause us to wrestle with this mystical reality that the New Testament speaks about so frequently of union with Christ, where it's like, I'm not in heaven. Christ ascended to the right hand of God the Father. And yet, Paul says, You are seated in heaven right now. So, so that's why, you know, we have to have on one hand the recognition the church can err, it can act outside the authority of Christ. There's an ontological difference. Everything the church does is not what Christ does. And yet, if the Christ, if the church is acting in harmony with the head, it's as though it is Christ himself.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yes. Yeah, and there is a oneness that uh obviously Paul alludes to it there in the in Ephesians 1, uh 21 and 22. But then Jesus himself, when he stops uh Saul, right, on the road to Damascus, he says, Why are you persecuting me? And and Saul is persecuting the church, and Jesus takes it personally, right? Because it is a persecution of him. Uh, and in that that's uh and then Paul Paul recounts that again later in Acts. Uh, and so already there is beginning in Paul's mind, he's catching on to, oh, so I'm not just hauling people off to jail or to be stoned. I'm doing this to God himself. And this dawns on on now Paul, and so he begins uh after spending some time of you know uh uh communion and revelation from Jesus Christ Himself, uh, begins to make these connections, realizing that the church is something is something special and has has a oneness with Christ, so that he can say in Ephesians, and it's not just in Ephesians uh one, but particularly in Ephesians one, uh verse 22 and 23, I guess it is, uh he says that the church, the his body, which is uh the church which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. Uh that's that's a really important uh concept. It's a complicated one. Now, historically, uh that has been called the doctrine of the totus Christus, the total Christ. In what sense is the church one with Christ? In what sense are we the fullness of Christ?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah. And and it makes a lot more sense then um to read John 20, 23 about the church's authority, responsibility to forgive sins, to pick up a passage like this and say, okay, you know, I'm not Jesus is not suddenly contradicting the earlier statement that God alone can forgive sins, or that you know, Christ as God has the the Son of Man has the authority to forgive sins. No, of course, no, you know, nobody is denying that. And I would never want to undermine that fact, even. I mean, absolutely, right? I mean, who am I, right? Who am I? Nobody. A sin is a David says, against you and you only have I sinned, right? And done this evil in your sight, even though he had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, right? It's and and the whole people of Israel. We understand that. That's weighty. I mean, it's it's a debt to God and God alone can forgive it. But it's like, oh, okay, but Christ has made this identification with the church so that if they act in harmony with his intentions and with his plan, they actually act as Christ, as representatives of Christ. And for somebody to just ignore override that authority is as if they're just overriding the authority of Christ uh alone. So when I think about the authority of the church, I I don't think I need to feel as though somehow that stands on one side, the authority Christ stands on the other side. But rather, Christ and the church are so closely united that to speak of the church's authority properly is to bring people back to Christ Himself.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Right. So in John 20, 23, uh the church is given authority from Christ to the apostles to the church to hold itself accountable to the kingdom ethics that Christ taught. Uh as you were talking there, my mind went back to uh our conversation some time ago on the priesthood of believers, right? Uh that this is a corporate responsibility. Uh and maybe now's a good time to start moving into sacredotalism and making some distinctions between uh our understanding as Protestants versus uh Roman Catholic. And again, Eastern Orthodox and the Church of England also have more of a Roman-ish uh understanding, or might might say, yeah, I don't know. Uh anyway, there's a great number of Christians in the world that uh practice this differently than what Protestants do. I think the Protestant view is current the correct one. Uh I I have a couple of serious problems with particularly the Roman Catholic practice of this. The doctrine, by the way, the Roman Catholic doctrine on this is really difficult to understand. It's if I don't want to separate practice from doctrine. If the practice says anything about the doctrine, then their doctrine's wrong. Um and and the reason is is because uh their understanding of John 2023, which by the way, is the uh basic scripture that the Roman Catholic Church uses for sacredalism. Uh so let's first of all define sacrodalism. Uh I'll offer my somewhat informal definition, and then if you have a formal one, you can share that. But uh, as I understand sacrodalism, it is the view that a priest or a pastor has an essential and essential and special authority to forgive or withhold forgiveness from an individual uh unilaterally, so on his own, uh simply by virtue of his ordination into the priesthood. Uh now I have a couple of two or three serious problems with that view. Uh do you have a formal definition?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Uh, here's one. Um I but but maybe just highlight the elements that they they include. Uh they would bring in the concept of mediation, that the reason why they have that necessary role and authority is because God has ordained earthly priests as essential mediators. And then also usually this is in reference to the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, the idea that in the Roman Catholic Church that when the priest prays the blessing over the elements, that they turn into the literal body and blood of the of the Lord Jesus, which Jesus said, if you don't drink my blood, eat my flesh or none of mine, they take that literally and say, um the only way to be saved, you got to eat the bull, eat the flesh, drink the blood. Who has God given the authority to actually bring that about? That ordinary bread and wine changes its substance. Well, it's the priests, uh, and so they have this special, this special divine authority uh by virtue of their ordination and their office. So how you know they have that authority, how could you be saved without that? Um, and that that's the I think usually it's in in reference to the sacraments.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Yeah, so my uh my problems with the uh Roman Catholic doctrine and practice is that it is, first of all, it's part of the bigger scheme of the infallibility of the church or the magisterium. Um so the Roman Catholic doctrine is that you know scripture is infallible, but uh in their view, that doesn't really mean a lot unless we have some sort of infallible way of interpreting it. And so that's where the magisterium or the church hierarchy, you know, councils and so forth, uh which by the way, they do not hold the priests on their own to be infallible. Um but the um you know synods and councils and then all the way up to to the Pope when the Pope is speaking and you know at certain times is considered inspired and infallible. Uh we obviously as Protestants reject that. Uh there are none infallible simply because um only God, God Himself, uh is is uh certain without mistake. Uh so that's one. Um but the other is is this so the essentiality and priority of a priest in salvation to a Protestant and to me seems to put the priest's role prior to the role of the Holy Spirit? And so uh for me, I want to ask the question you know, does does the Holy Spirit save? And does the Holy Spirit save uh before, during, after, or an essential connection to the act of a priest? So uh again, as Protestants, particularly in uh John Calvin was especially, I think, helpful on this um on theology of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will ordinarily work through the ministries of the church, through a pastor, priest, through uh other believers within church ministry. Um but he's not bound to that. The Holy Spirit's not bound to that. Right. So to say that the priest or a pastor is essential and or has priority is not the way a Protestant would talk about that. I think that would go against, I think it does go against the how we think of salvation and our role or not in that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

You probably noticed that every chance I get, I throw in the word ordinarily, ordinarily. Uh you know, that's that's because Cyprium's maxim, outside the church there is no salvation. It's a maxim. It's supposed to be, it's not supposed to be taken to the wall. Um, I think that the Westminster Confession of Faith gets it right when it affirms Cyprian's maxim with the qualification, you know, the church is the family of the visible church is the family of God, outside of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation. So I do think that um that Roman Catholics at least tend to teach or imply that the church's role and particularly the role of a priest is essential. Although this is like, it's like you said, it's so confusing because Roman Catholics, I mean, there's how many Roman Catholics? Over a billion, right? There's not they're not a monolithic group. They're more similar, you know, there's more obviously conformity than within Protestantism. But I mean, I've heard good Roman Catholic theologians acknowledge, I mean, I think even the popes acknowledge there's people outside the visible Roman Catholic Church who are saint, who don't, you know, go through a Roman Catholic priest. Lots of, you know, especially today, you know, the relations between the the the Catholic Church and and the pro and Protestantism, believe it or not, have changed in 500 years.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

But but let me let me insert this. That's only since the 1960s, the second, second Vatican, right? Uh not until then, I think it was 62, I want to say, did the Roman Catholic Church acknowledge that there are true believers outside the Roman Catholic Church. Uh so that's that's a fairly new uh formal development. Right. Yeah, formal formal. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's a bit that's a big deal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Yeah. So okay, I don't know where we want to go for from here.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Um, but well, let's yeah, let's just let's talk about a you know let's let's construct a theology of John 2023. What's what's happening here? Let's look at the passage, and then let's look at some objections and and and respond to those. And uh and I want to point out uh doctrinally and practically that uh we must not attempt to uh implement uh John 2023 without John 2022, uh, where where Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to his disciples. Uh so the forgiveness or withholding of forgiveness is an act of spirit-filled people. Uh so that's point number one, and I can hardly emphasize that enough. Secondly, however, this is corporate. Uh I understand this in relation again to Matthew 18, where there must be two or three. Uh, this is corporate. This is not me as a pastor or you know the local priest acting unilaterally. This is uh a pastor or another believer acting in cooperation with uh the other church and one uh others in the church. And the reason is because the church is not infallible. We are fallible, and in order to alleviate the fallibility of the church, the this sort of responsibility must be carried out by a plurality of Christians, not by a single Christian.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

So let's put those together. Um first to your second point, in the article, I write, note carefully that the authority to forgive sins or to withhold the forgiveness of sins has not been invested in any one person or group of persons. The church bears this authority exercises accorporely. Uh, I think I should have said, note carefully, please don't miss double underline, highlight asterisk, because very quickly somebody turns around and is like, I'm, you know, I'm very troubled by those who are saying that we personally forgive sins. Nobody said that, right? Nobody said that. That's a straw man. And then and then right away we've got references to the Pope, the Roman Catholic Church, right? You just you brand it, you label it, you dismiss it. It's easy to just that's right, you're taming the blue parakeet. Don't look at it. Ignore it.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

So that's that's the genetic fallacy, right?

unknown 37:31

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

That's right. So you got that from the Roman, you've been reading too many Roman Catholics. No, we've been reading the Bible. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah, and and the Protestant reformers, right? Yeah, it's the reformers who brought me largely to some of these understandings. My my objection isn't that it's not that I'm Roman Catholic, it's that you're not Protestant enough. You need to get back to your sources. But anyway, so you know, note carefully the corporate nature, but now bring that together with the spirit, as you as you said. You know, Paul says the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. So if being filled with the spirit uh is a condition of exercising the office of the keys, then it looks something like, something like if you as a loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and self-controlled community forgive sins, then they are forgiven to them. And and if we don't read it that way, yeah, you're leaving the door wide open for abuse.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Right, right. Yeah, I just had a conversation about an intervention that needs to happen among believers. And uh we were kind of going over what's this gonna look like, what kind of setting is it gonna be, who's gonna be there, and that sort of thing. As we were discussing it, um a point came up uh and I raised the question. I said, Well, I'm not sure that that will come across as gentle, because of all of the things mentioned, of all the virtues mentioned in Galatians 6, 1, in regard to restoration of a believer who has sinned, gentleness is the one that's mentioned. It must be done with gentleness. Um and uh now we this is where we have to read John 20, 23, a difficult passage, in light of everything else that scripture says about keeping one another from sin and holding one, uh restoring one another from sin. Uh, I've mentioned this before, but uh nearly half of the one another commands in the New Testament have to do with either keeping one another or restoring one another as believers from sin. Uh so we can't ignore that. That's a that's a big, big deal. So that now let's let's continue to to look at John 20, 23 and what does it mean? Uh so what of what is this forgiving or withholding forgiveness? It it is a corporate act. Yes. We've we've agreed with that. Let me just mention these two things. I believe it is a corporate act in which the church A authenticates right living and B shows its commitment to holiness and to the doctrine and conduct of Christ. I think those are two, now that we could add to that list, but I think those are two important important ones. It authenticates right living and it shows its commitment to the purity of believers.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

So authenticates uh by that you mean that the church recognizes an authenticity that already exists because the spiritual reality is there. I would probably go further because I believe that baptism does something. So this gets into a sacramental discussion. I don't know how far we want to go, but it's hard to talk about this subject without talking about it, because in the Nicene Creed, we have I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, which is basically just drawing its language right from Acts 2: Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Peter, of course,'s baptism now saves you, you know, not as a washing of flesh, not like the Roman Catholics sometimes imply or teach that it's just by the very act itself, you know, but through the resurrection of Christ. So it does seem like there and everywhere, baptism is described as doing something that goes beyond merely authentication, because that can be interpreted in my mind at least, at least the way I'm hearing it. And that's why I'm pausing. I'm trying to think through, and maybe you can just expound a little bit more what you mean on it.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

But let me yeah, let me expand this. So let's take a uh let's take the illustration of a piece of art, artwork. Yeah, you go to an art, not that I have, but you go to an art uh auction, and this piece, they're asking, you know, millions of dollars for this piece. What is it you're gonna want with that? You're gonna want some certificate of authentic uh of authenticity, right? Yeah. So it it goes together, it goes with the piece. You you don't have it, you may not have the certificate, and it may be authentic, but you don't know that. Right. It's it's the certificate, again, you it's kind of it's very similar to the marriage illustration that you used earlier. And so that's kind of the sense of what I'm saying. Uh I'm I'm not I'm not saying they're trying to discount the church's role. It really is an exercise of the keys, it's an exercise of the derived, the authority derived from Christ. It's Christian authority. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Yeah, I I totally agree. And I've made a very similar point by using illustrate two illustrations I've used repeatedly. Uh a seal, because baptism is a sign and seal of the covenant, you know, and so pro so take like if I get a letter in the mail and it's from Joe Biden and it says do this and that, I'm gonna look for the pre the first thing I'm like, this is probably spam. I'm gonna look for authentication, right? Is the presidential seal on that letter. Um, if it doesn't have the seal, I'm not going to gen, you know, ordinarily trust it. It's possible, A, that it is actually from Joe Biden and some secretary messed up. Up and then put the seal on it. Or it's also possible, B, that the seal is a forgery. So to roughly use that illustration with the church, it's possible that a baptized person, the church has, you know, exercising the authority of Christ, baptized them. It's possible they're a forgery, right? We acknowledge that in the article. It's possible that my and um we go up to the altar, my wife and I go up to the my now wife go up to the altar, somebody proclaims us husband and wife, but she's secretly married to somebody else. Oh no, right? Well, then what he said doesn't ultimately matter at the end of the day. The state of Pennsylvania is not going to recognize that marriage, you know. Or on the other hand, you know, you, you know, the other situation. So I agree, authentication. I think my point is just I want to, and I can't say that I know how to articulate this yet, but I I uh and there's some theologians throughout history. In fact, I just read Augustine recently, who basically says we can't say exactly what it is. But I want to say that baptism also does something. So it's not just authenticating a piece that is already authentic, but ordinarily, if we're proud, and in the New Testament, it's at least treated as though it somehow makes the the peace authentic, because the grace of God that saves ordinarily flows through and is sealed by baptism in a way there, right? I'm not I'm not saying I believe baptismal regeneration, but I also want to just somehow do something with the language of the New Testament.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah, yeah. So I'm not sure if this is what you're saying or not, but baptism, for instance, it that is that's instituted by Christ. That is an act. But that by the way, I mean there are other religions that baptize, but this is something that Christ takes and he authorizes it for use in the church for special purpose. And in so doing, he infuses uh he he makes it something that it wouldn't be without his authority, right? So when we when you say, if I if I hear you correctly, I'm gonna take you to be saying this, that that you know it's not the water that washes washes away our sin. It's not the act of baptism that that forgives us of our sin, and yet it's not disconnected to the fact that it is Christ who made this act a means of grace, a sacrament. And yes, so so there is, I I would probably have to agree with Augustine that there is a tremendous amount of that that is a mystery. Uh, but I can affirm that it is God alone who forgives sins, and at the same time say it is also given to the church to make proclamations of sins forgiven or not, based, by the way, on uh as as this has been practiced in in my life and in my experience, based on the fruit of repentance. And so in my mind, this this we're talking about uh uh primarily the kind in the passages that we've spoken of so far in Matthew and and and John, although John's a little bit more, a little broader, uh this is especially applicable when it comes to restoration. So there are actually two conversations, I think, or two places to uh apply John 2023. One is in regard to unbelievers who are seeking Christ and the church's role in bringing them into the body. The second, though, is the church's relationship to those who are within the church's members and sin, and then whether or not they show the fruit of repentance and restoration or not. Uh, the church has a role in that so that a person who is within the body of Christ, professing to be a believer, but is ignoring blatant sin in their life, the church has the responsibility of church discipline. And that is what John 20, 23 is touching on. We have to carry out church discipline and accountability for the sake of the purity and the witness of the church.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

So if I'm hearing you correctly, it might look something like if you have a person who in the church who abuses somebody else, I mean, physically, sexually, whatever, and then they go to the altar, they pray, they give a testimony that, you know, they had sinned, but God forgave them. But then they go on and they won't accept the consequences for what they've done, legal or ecclesial. They aren't trying to make restitution. And there's these people who continue to be hurt and harmed by those sins, and they're not willing to deal with that. The church has to step in for the good of the body because that's what the keys are given for, right? The health of the body. It's like the body's immune system to deal with viruses in the body. The church has to step in at that point and say something like, you know, I know that you think that you're forgiven and everything's okay and you can just move on, but you know, biblically, we have to say that as a church, we can't continue to extend to you the forgiveness of sins if you're not willing to deal with these issues. Because there's people who are have been seriously hurt and harmed by what you're doing. So we're not, you know, remembering your sins against you and holding it over your head. That's not what we're doing. We're saying that repentance entails more than just a moment, it entails now a changed way of living and relating to other members of the body, and we have a responsibility to enforce that as a congregation.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Yeah, and that's why we can't ignore passages like John 20, 23. It's because we are responsible for the purity of the church, maintaining the witness of the of the church which is called holy. And if we do not practice, as difficult as it is, if we do not have a good practice on accountability and church discipline, then we will end up with a a with growing impurities within the church. And that's exactly what's happening in the American church, where this is not practice at all. Now, that's going to lead us to uh a couple of objections. So let me introduce this objection. And that is, uh I think you've identified it as kind of a cultural objection, uh, which is uh a real one. And that is, uh, doesn't this kind of talk about the exercise of the keys and church authority to forgive or withhold forgiveness doesn't, isn't that extremely risky? Doesn't that open the church up for all kinds of abuse? Right. And and so uh let's just briefly respond to that. I'll give you uh the first response.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Yeah, so to somebody who, yeah, somebody who hears this or who read the article and their initial reaction is like, oh man, like that just opens the door for abuse. That is just like a fear response. Um I would I would first of all, you know, say, like I I understand that concern. I respect that concern. But I hope that somehow on the other side of this discussion, like I'm inviting you into a discussion, right? And I hope on the other side of the discussion, you'll be able to see that my my heart and and your heart, Dr. Fry, is actually not to uh use authority as a hammer, but it's actually to recognize God-given authority for what it is, for building up, not for tearing down. So when Paul says the authority which is given me is giving me for given me for building up, not for tearing down, what's he doing? He's recognizing the possibility that it can be and has been used for tearing down, right? You can never remove the possibility of abuse, it's always a possibility. Yes. But I also want to say, I also want to say that Paul's also recognizing in that statement that without that authority, he wouldn't be able to build up in the same way.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

And so what I want to say is that yes, it's risky to do this, it's also risky not to do it. And if it's done well, it can be for the good in the health of the body. And I know people who are who've been hurt, right? It's horrible. Almost all of us do. It's it's yeah, it's really, really bad. And I was talking to my family about this on Sunday afternoon, and it's like some of these people, and I just this is a dumb illustration, but I said, you know, if somebody hit me with a hammer, every time I saw a hammer, I might, you know, like cringe. And you know, I, you know, I might somebody might try to sit there and talk to me about how, hey, this hammer, man, I you can build things with it. It's got all these constructive purposes. Uh, did you know how the hammer was invented? It's it's really a wise invention, right? And I'm like sitting there like, uh, the hammer, don't hit me with it, right? And that's what happens. You know, people have gotten hitten by hit by the hammer of ecclesial authority. And so they're they're not actually hearing what's being said because they've never seen it used constructively. Um, you know, or even if they haven't used it, it's still so hard for them to release those feelings. So I would say, yeah, like one of the first steps is that we we've got to work through the abuse that's happened. We've got to acknowledge it, we've got to confront it. And and I would I've always say, you know, how do you make any change in the church? Slowly and with much teaching. And so this is not something you jump into. This is something you you you, as a pastor, you've got to use a lot of wisdom, you've got to go slowly, you got to go proceed with humility and and with the goal of the church's health, you know, very much front and center in your mind.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Right. I don't think I really have anything to add to that other than to acknowledge that most people who uh read John 2023 in this in light of what we're saying here, or if they hear us treat John 2023, uh, their response is probably going to be negative. I fully expect that. Uh that there's going to be a kind of almost a withdrawal, like, oh man, that I'm not sure about that. There, there are a lot of problems with that. I expect that to be the common reaction, precisely because A, most Christians, at least in my experience, have not witnessed healthy church discipline. And two, they have witnessed very unhealthy church discipline and abuse. And that even if it is in a subtle way, many, many Christians of my acquaintance are have experienced some level of spiritual abuse and heavy-handed use of authority simply because the pastor had the pulpit or had the platform. So we we acknowledge that. Uh and we acknowledge that that that is a tragedy. Uh but we also acknowledge that God's way is always the right way, and we have to work diligently and carefully to make sure we understand what Jesus is teaching in John 20, 23 and related passages, and make sure that as a church we are living out God's role for the church. We cannot ignore what is in the New Testament a very significant role for the church.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah. I I think there's only one thing that I really want to make sure that I get in here before we close, and that is the qualifications for pastors in 1 Timothy 3 and in Titus. If you're going to lead the church in exercising this kind of authority, if you realize the weight that comes with that responsibility to lead the church in exercising the keys, it becomes even more apparent how weighty and important those qualifications are. We've talked quite a bit about the qualification app to teach, right? You've got to be, uh we've got to emphasize theological knowledge, ability to teach, because that's that's the emphasis in the pastoral epistles. But I mean, all of the other qualifications are character requirements. They're about uh being above reproach, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, right? Not violent, but gentle. So here's my question. This is a question for every, if you're in any position to affect this, why, why are we not vetting pastors and ministers by these qualifications? Because I'll be honest, I wasn't. I never have been. There has never been a moment in my life when anyone has probed me about these qualifications. That's a problem. That's that's you're opening up yourself to abuse. My experience is that it goes rather like this uh you have camp meeting service or whatever, the spirit moves, a lot of emotion. You got a guy go up, believes that whether he really is or not, believes he's called to preach, testifies to a call to preach, he that's that's the qualification. And as long as there's no like flagrant, obvious, glaring sin in his life, right? Uh, as long as it's not like everybody knows he's doing this, that, or the other, then that's pretty much and as long as he can find a few people to write him a pastoral recommendation, which you always can, right? And as you know, you can get a license and you can go preach in pastor church and you're thrown into ministry. Is it any wonder then that the church, which is called to restore sinners in gentleness and exercise the office of the keys, is not is not often doing it well when you have pastors who are not tested to see whether or not they're gentle. Now, I'm pouring coals on my own head here because I I feel like I was thrown into the ministry. I mean, I got saved very quickly, through, you know, brought into pastoral ministry. And and many of these qualities were lacking in my life. You know, I was young, I was still working through some things. There's still times when I ask myself, I come back to these qualifications all the time. I'm like, I've gotta, I've gotta work on these areas, I've got to keep these areas in front of me. I can't let myself slip. This is serious stuff. And uh, and so I just think it's gotta start with the pastors and it's gotta start with with really emphasizing character and vetting character and having a thorough process of investigation. And um, yeah, we should we should have a whole episode on this because I could just go on for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's a great point, and I think that's a good way to bring uh this episode to a conclusion, uh, to speak directly to pastors and and to those, including myself, who are involved in that process of vetting pastors, interviewing pastors, uh, preparing them for ordination. I think that's an absolutely crucial step. Uh and then I think there are conversations that need to happen within local churches among leadership uh pastors and board members and elders. And there needs to be a conversation about this. And it needs to be a very open, gentle conversation where pastors can talk with their leaders and say, what does this look like for us? How can we implement this? Uh it's probably not a good idea for a pastor to just unilaterally say, hey, we've got to start doing this and then start implementing something without being uh patient and teaching. And and then also uh leaders, congregations need to respect the responsibility of the pastor to be working these things out and leading a congregation on these matters uh and give them uh some trust in uh learning themselves the best way. As long as they are expressing that virtue of gentleness and patience and not being puffed up and not being proud and and living above reproach, uh there ought to be a high, high level of trust. So these are this is a critical conversation and one undoubtedly that we'll return to uh that will arise in different conversations because it's pretty pretty far reaching.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

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