The Salvation and Nurture of Children

In this episode, David Fry and Johnathan Arnold discuss the salvation of children and the early Methodist practice of infant baptism, nurture, and confirmation.

Topics addressed include:

• Sunday School and Christian nurture movement
• Child salvation
• Infant baptism and communion
• Confirmation
• Christian parenting
• The church's role in forming children

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:01

You can learn a lot about the theology of a child by looking at the various church manuals and disciplines and reading their form or their ritual for baby dedication.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Having that confirmation point is building into your discipleship program, so to speak, a clear moment in usually like young teenage years where they have to really make a decision. Are you going to embrace this faith as your own?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Front. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice all for a holy, happy church.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

So the last time we were together, we talked about infant baptism, and the conversation turned pretty quickly to talking about Christian parenting. Because really, infant baptism is about the covenant community embracing this child as a disciple, as somebody to be nurtured. It's really about coming around them as a community. And I mentioned that I've been reading Scott McKnight's book on infant baptism. It's one of my favorite resources that I've found. And it's for this reason. He really stresses this. He even waits a while to introduce some of the actual infant, the Paedo-Baptist theology, and just focuses for a few chapters on the need for this to be the parents of a child coming forward, making a covenant commitment to train this child in the way they should go and bringing them before the community, inviting the whole community to come around them and participate in raising this child. And he talks about how there has been this practice in some mainline churches to hold like private infant baptisms where you get together with your pastor or your priest in the afternoon and it's just you and your godparents or something, you know, their godparents or something. And he makes this statement that infant baptism, apart from family and church nurture, is a magical superstition that does more damage than good. The solution to laxity by parents, sponsors, and churches, however, is not adult baptism, but renewal in the hearts of parents and churches. And he goes on to describe, you know, what that looks like to include this child in family and church-based formation. And so what we want to talk about today is how we view children, um, how our theology of grace and of the covenant um uh affects our view of children, particularly in relationship to salvation uh and participation in the church. And of course, that ties in direct, you know, pretty directly with infant baptism, but but not limited to that. And just step back a little bit more broadly and discuss uh infants and salvation.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

This takes me back to mid-19th century, maybe the latter half of the 19th century when Sunday school uh began in churches, particularly in Europe and North America. So I've just been going back and reading some of the history of the Christian nurture uh movement of the late 19th century, and came across one author uh who recalls, I think he was writing in about 1876, and he refers to this uh recent phenomenon of Sunday school and how it it rose out of a renewal of Christian nurture of children. So the Christian nurture movement of the late 19th century, mid to late 19th century, was uh I think probably really instigated by Horace Bushnell's book called Christian Nurture, published in 1861. Uh Horace Bushnell was a liberal, uh liberal American North American theologian uh who denied original sin and viewed uh children as morally neutral. You know, they're not corrupt, but they're made corrupt by environment and other factors. And so very liberal. Uh that, as I had mentioned, I think in the last podcast, required uh lots of responses, gained lots of responses, but it it fostered then this whole movement of and conversation about Christian nurture and what is the role of the church and of parents in in the raising and the teaching and instructing of children. So within the Methodist tradition, uh quite a few books were written uh on this topic. I'm actually making my way back through them now again, and uh they they really embrace uh a uh a view of Christian nurture that uh that really resonates with with what we have been saying, and of course they're de they defend infant baptism uh as a result of of their theological understanding of the salvation of children. Uh but one of the things that they do is they distinguish their uh the orthodoxy and of course Methodist uh theology from bushnel, and so they clearly affirm original sin, they clearly affirm that children are born corrupted, and yet uh they uh acknowledge that a child, because of the grace of Christ, a child is born under the atoning blood of Jesus Christ and is properly called justified. So anyway, so this so then this is where Sunday school comes in. Sunday school arose in the uh around 1870s uh in order to train our young children to bring them up as Christians. Now, our experience of Sunday school in my lifetime has been more that it is an outreach tool to sinners. And uh instead of this is for you know our you know children from Christian homes who we we want to make sure that they understand the grace that Christ has given them and raise them up as Christians. That was very much the focus, and I say that was 1870s, uh somewhere there in the in the latter part of the 19th century is when this phenomena happened. Uh but we certainly in the last you know century have uh, or at least half a century, have had a very different focus on Sunday school, and we have tended to adopt more of what I call the reformed revivalist view of children. That is that children are all children are born lost, and uh we we hope and pray that they'll come to Christ, you know, some sometime when they reach moral awareness.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

So Bushnell Bushnell in his first chapter says uh you know, his primary thesis that he's arguing for is that the child is to grow up a Christian and never know himself as being otherwise. And I think there is quite a bit of continuity between that and the Methodist tradition and their new adventure children. But um there is this, you know, right away that the number one fear objection is, but then isn't that child going to grow up and think just because they're a church member or just because they were baptized that now they're you know they're they're right with God and they don't need to be born again um or they they just become very nominal? Because we see that. We know, I mean, we know people who they grew up in the church, they just assume they're saved, but there's no really living faith there. They don't own it. So um I you touched on this last time, but um, how would you how would you present this in a way that doesn't lead to this kind of um just nominal faith where you're because I hear that a lot, preachers say, just because your parents were Christians, just because you were you raised in the church, there's a lot of fear that that that's what's gonna happen. So how do you how do you present this in a way that doesn't diminish the need for a personal, um, definite relationship with the Lord and a living and personal faith and regeneration?

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Well, it certainly certainly does. So a child, as you know, all of the Methodists I've reading so far, uh let me just give you their names in case someone is interested. Uh Charles Wesley uh Richel is a very late 19th century. In fact, his book is actually 1904, so he died in 1908. Uh, so he wrote uh The Child is God's Child. Uh Henry, I believe it's Flesher Bland. Yes, Henry Flesher Bland wrote a short work called Universal Childhood Drawn to Christ. Uh that is also in the latter part of the 19th century. Uh Alexander Sutherland, I believe he was a Canadian. I'd have to double check that, but yes, yeah, he was. Uh he's a Canadian Methodist, wrote the moral status of children and their relation to Christ and his church. A short work, but just fantastic. Really good stuff. 1876 is the date on that one. Uh, and there are there are some others uh here as well. Um so one of the points that they all of all of these Methodists make is that uh really uh confirmation, it's it's what uh some traditions practice as confirmation. That is that at some point their baptism from infancy is confirmed by their own testimony of faith. And that may be at eight years old, it might be at 18, it might be, it's but they they have to affirm that uh that faith uh which which they have been raised up in as their own, they have to personalize that. So that's an important part of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Yeah. I'm really glad you went there. So this comes back to a principle, a really foundational principle of theology, especially practical theology, is that abuse does not take away proper use. And so, you know, if you've never seen infant baptism and confirmation practiced in a healthy, nurturing way, as it was for so much of church history in our own Methodist tradition, um, you immediately are gonna view both of those things with suspicion. But there's a really reasonable uh impetus behind the idea of confirmation, is that if you're raising this child in the covenant community, the point is that you're trying to nurture them towards this affirmation, embracing the family and embracing a child can always walk away from home. There's always that reality. So if you're nurturing them towards that and all that catechesis, you know, growing up is nurturing them towards that and providing channels for God's grace to flow to that child, having that confirmation point is building into your discipleship program, so to speak, a clear moment in, you know, usually like young teenage years where you feel like, okay, this child's definitely at the age of accountability, so to speak. Um and around that time, we're gonna bring them to a point where they have to really make a decision. Are you gonna embrace this faith as your own and and and do that, right? And so as long as they do that, they continue in the covenant community. Now, if they start to push back and and resist that, then there might come a point at which you have to say, okay, you know, we can't continue to affirm your membership. Um, so so confirmation is really the the really concrete way that the church has prevented that that infant the practice of infant baptism leading to a very nominal uh faith.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, so we've actually built that into our local church structure here, in that uh our church, like many, we practice baby dedication. Interestingly, before I move past that this point, uh, I think it's Alexander Sutherland, who in his book, The Moral Status of Children and Their Relationship to Christ in the Church, he talks about the practice of baby dedication. And he he mentions how some Methodists are doing that, and he he wants to say, you know, this is this is infant baptism. And he says, just make it make it per purposeful. And he says, you want to be intentional on what this is, don't be accidental, don't be vague as to what you're doing. Now, I I have had more response recently uh because I've taken up the practice that one of my conference presidents uh practiced uh before he retired, and that was the use of water in baby dedication. So I've taken that up. Again, I've referred to that before, but it has raised a lot of questions, and people say, you know, so you know, is this infant baptism or is this baby dedication? And by the way, what what does it mean to just dedicate a child? Well, you can learn a lot about a theology of a child by looking at the various church manuals and disciplines and reading their form or their ritual for baby dedication. And in fact, I I hope to write an article on that here shortly, uh just comparing the different rituals that churches have. Some of them are very close to what traditionally has just been infant baptism. Some, it's really only a dedication of the parents. It really has nothing to do with the child hardly at all. So that that's been very interesting. Um so what happens in uh Methodism of the 19th and early 20th century is you have you see this movement towards more baby dedication as an influence of reformed revivalism. Uh, they begin to kind of change uh very influenced by that theology. Uh as more people begin to catch on to what then was a very popular notion that you know children aren't justified because they've not exercised faith. You have to believe in order to be baptized. And so many, especially in the holiness movement, kind of strayed from that. But there is a a lot of interest now as to uh you know, what what does this mean? What does you know baby dedication mean? You know, it how how should we understand the salvation of our child? Uh I would endeavor to say that nearly probably all of the parents who have brought their children to me as a pastor to be dedicated, you know, none of them would say, we're bringing him or her to you because if if we don't do this, they're going to be lost eternally. No, they they they come with some at least sentiment, and it may only be sentimentality. Uh, they may have no theological explanation as to why they believe their child is under the blood of Jesus Christ, but they believe that. Uh the Methodists go to some length to show theologically why that's so.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, so infant or uh child dedication, as you said, is clearly the act of the parents. And while we may think about infant baptism as the act of the parents as well, I do think it's important to note that the church has not viewed it that way uh traditionally. They viewed baptism as an act of God. We are at best the instrument through which God acts. Um, child dedication is very much focused on the parent's action. Infant baptism historically has been much more focused on God's action. Um, you know, Jesus is baptized in the Jordan, and this is the archetype for all baptisms, and God is the one who led Israel through the Jordan, right? God is the one who parted the Red Sea. So this Red Sea baptism. So baptism of a child is as much the act of God as the parting of the Red Seas or the crossing of Jordan. So the the um the emphasis has shifted. Um now, of course, the danger, as we mentioned before, is that that in viewing infant baptism as the act of God, it it can become superstitious and it can't be divorced from community formation. Um but I do worry that infant dedication or child dedication swings the pendulum too far the other way and and fails to acknowledge what God does in baptism and how this is identifying this child's relationship to the salvation which Christ has promised for all. And so it actually becomes less Christ-focused and and more uh parent-focused.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Right. Yes, yes, and I've certainly seen that and witnessed that. So practically then, or pastorally, I I would not press a pastor to make a big distinction between infant baptism and baby dedication, but it's what what are you actually doing and what are you saying? What are you uh what what theology are you teaching in this practice? So uh you know, not that a distinction couldn't be made, uh I'm suggesting that there's a way to you know continue to keep our forms for the most part intact, call it baby dedication because there are some people who are gonna be just really shy about okay, infant baptism. Now there's training that needs to be done. Again, I I think the terms can be used interchangeably, not that they are, but they can be. Okay, so I'm not going to make a big fuss over what I do being called infant baptism or baby dedication. All right. You would. I would because you would. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Because it's an ordinance of Christ, right? I understand.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

So the the difference though, the difference is I understand that within the context in which I'm I'm ministering, and you too, that there's a a big learning curve to to bridge the concepts that we're trying to bridge. Sure. I'm saying, why why choose a phrase or a term that's going to just automatically shut people's ears when when they just need to the door needs to be opened a bit and they begin to understand and come inductively to an understanding of, oh, baby dedication, that's infant baptism. Okay. And so they they come to that understanding. Now, now that I've just said that publicly, it probably doesn't even make any difference. But let's go back though to what's the basis of our understanding of the spiritual state of a child. And it goes back to Jesus himself and his words. And so uh we know multiple times that Jesus uh obviously allowed the children to come to him. He used children as examples of the kingdom of what the kingdom of God is like, of how we are to be like, to be a part of the kingdom of heaven. Uh he he held you know children in his in his arms, on his lap, and he taught, saying, be like this one, right? And so the question has always been, uh, why would Jesus use as an example uh as a model for Christian faith, someone who is not themselves a Christian, if they were not a Christian? And and the answer to that is he wouldn't. He is using a child as a model of faith because that faith has a that child uh is is a disciple of Christ. He takes them up on his on his in his arms. He is a child of of Christ, and uh the expectation is don't offend against this child because he is mine, she is mine, don't offend this child. Uh in fact, you have to be like this child if you want to follow me. Uh so that's an example of Christian faith. Children are using examples as of Christian faith. Then there's the question behind that. Okay, how so? Given the effect of Adam's sin on the human race, how can we make sense of that? And so that's where uh in in the Methodist tradition and others, but we're talking about the Methodist tradition here, they distinguish between original sin as a corruption of human nature versus the reformed addition to that that we inherit Adam's guilt. So uh the Methodist tradition. As well as many Christian traditions, even most Christian traditions, have not affirmed that we are personally guilty for what Adam did, but only that we are impacted, that we are corrupted by what he did. But no one is finally condemned for Adam's personal, although original, sin. With that said, then, there's a big difference between saying what Randy Alcorn says in one of the opening pages of his book on heaven, where he says that no one goes to heaven by default. That's not our default setting coming into the world. In fact, our default setting coming into the world, he says, says the only place we will go is our true default destination, hell. If nothing happens, everyone's on their comes into the world on their way to hell. And then he goes on the next paragraph and says, in fact, most people will go to hell. So a lot of issues there. Point being that's a modern example of the reformed revivalist idea that uh children are born lost. And Augustine believed this too. He believed they're they're born lost until they're baptized, and so baptize them as soon as you can. Well, uh, Randy Alcorn's probably is not an infant, you know, he he doesn't believe in Pater baptism, so uh it's going to be sometime later, years. You're talking about years. Um at least Augustine, you know, allowed you know only days. Uh so it's a pretty stark, uh, Randy Alcorn does to his credit, he does later go and and he tries to figure out a way where he says, you know what, there's it is possible that children are covered by the blood. Uh scripture just doesn't say that, in his view. That's what he says. Scripture doesn't just doesn't tell us exactly. Um well, Methodists say, well, no, yeah, actually it does. Uh you know, Romans 5 is the classic passage. So it's kind of viewed as the great reversal. What was lost in Adam is found in Christ. What sin did to us through Adam, grace did much more. It's not just, it's just not cover, it's super cover, right? It's superabundant. And so uh the Methodist understanding of Romans 5 has always been that uh grace superabounds in the life of every person coming into the world, so that Jesus can say of a child who is yet corrupted, say, be like this one. If you want to follow me, if you want to enter the kingdom of heaven, be like this one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah. And I mean, so to be honest, I um I have been on my own like journey. I think back maybe three or four years ago. That's very much how I how I thought about how I viewed things. I was immersed in that way of thinking. And it was really through reading the Fathers, especially the Eastern Fathers, that that I came to to question that, to look at scripture again on some of these points. Um, but but going back really early, like Irenaeus, there's this idea that that the spirit of new creation is like renewing man throughout the world to God. Like the grace of God has covered the earth. And and and in Christ, you know, there's this this renewal, this reversal that's happening. This um uh in fact, I I think it was Brian Shelton that was on our Ad Fontes group where he talks about the bungee cord, you know, how like Christ reversed things. There's a there's a word for that, but I can't remember what it what it is. Um so so the way that we view uh the world is much more optimistic, but it's it's the optimism of grace. Uh, I think anybody that's followed Holy Joys or listened to our podcast or read any of our articles knows we're both very strong on total depravity. We're not we're not in any way undermining original sin. Yes, there's a pessimism of sin, um, but we we have to somehow maintain that tension between the optimism of grace and the pessimism about man under sin um and keep that in tension. And I think sometimes we we've gotten far too pessimistic about what the grace of Christ has done for the whole human race and especially um children. But I just want to tag onto something you said about Christ and his love for children and inviting children in. I've been thinking about this a lot because I shared a quote from Adam Clark last time that I had just come across about Christ, that lover of children. And, you know, when you think about baptism, if if I come back, come back to this point about Christ's baptism being the archetype, this is where the father speaks over him. This is my beloved son. Baptism is when God says, This is my child. And the Lord's Supper is when we come to the body and blood of Jesus and we we feast on Christ and we dine with Christ. And so if God says to children, uh, they are my children, you know, these little ones belong to me. And if Christ says to the children, come here to me and sit on my lap, right? And and brings them into his body, then who are we as the church to say, well, no, we're not going to baptize children? You're not, or who are we to say, no, you can't take communion? So, you know, pay-to-communion, I'm uh until I hear other, you know, I'm convinced otherwise, I don't buy into the the argument and parts of the reformed tradition that, well, we baptize infants, but we don't give them communion because communion is is more active and take and eat. No, I just think that's so devastating. Like this is this is Christ. I'm not gonna give my child Christ. Of course I'm gonna give my child Christ. You know, I'm not gonna say to, I'm not gonna deny them these means of grace. I want them to eat with me at the table. And I can you just, I mean, if we think about the the Eucharistic table as the table of Jesus, that's like we're gonna sit around the table with Jesus and think, yeah, but you can't come here. Well, we're being like the disciples who said to the children, go away. You know, how could we deny our covenant children the right to eat with Jesus? That's just absurd to me. So I think embracing them um, you know, into the into the sacraments is one of the most definite, concrete, and visible ways that we communicate this is God's child and they belong to Jesus, and they're going to eat with Jesus and with us as a community.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Right, right. So, yes, I I invite children to come, young children. Uh, I encourage the parents to be with their children as they're coming uh to the Lord's table. Uh, but you know, we very carefully, you know, we put the elements down and and I'll hand the little cup to a young child. I my youngest child is six years old. And uh, you know, he will probably never, at least under my uh pastoral ministry, will probably never know a day when, or a Sunday at least, when he did not take communion. Uh, but he comes to the altar with his little hands and he takes takes the the bread is placed in his hand, the cup is placed in his hand, and he knows you go up to the altar and and and he takes it. And uh I think it's uh it's just it's a beautiful thing to see uh people of all ages uh coming uh receiving and participating uh in this. Um there's uh yes, I I get nervous with children you know holding that little cup. Uh so we we intentionally, because we still use little cups, um, we intentionally fill them up about halfway to keep them from spilling over. Um but uh man, it's it's it's a joy. I if if we have a few spills here and there, I it it doesn't matter. You know, it's uh ultimately this is this is the joy of raising children who are learning what it means to be a part of the family of God. Yeah, just like my children, you know, from from birth on up, they learn what it means to come together every evening for our time of family prayer and hymns and scripture and and recitation, and they learn that we they they're participants, they have a voice, they have a place, and I love to hear them as they grow older to use that voice and to contribute. Uh, if if they're always pushed aside, then uh several things will commonly happen. One is uh that they will feel as an outsider, that the outsider they are, that they're being made, and then they will live up to that. Uh that's that's a common common uh experience. So uh I think I I told you before, but I've I've known uh parents who uh will you know march to the table with their children, and then when their children ask to take it, they say no, you know, or they'll shoo their hand away and say, No, no, no, this is only for believers. You know, as and somehow that's supposed to motivate their child to say, Oh, oh, I want to be a believer. Um now there's so many stories of parents who themselves have been gripped with fear because their child has not had a crisis in coming to Christ. Now, what I'm gonna say does not mean that there's not a moment of of a person affirming the faith that they are or confirming the faith in which that which has been handed to them, right? That that is true. So there is a right, or repenting. So that yes, those things are momentary happenings in our life. But uh I have heard too many testimonies, so many testimonies, beautiful testimonies, of people who have said, I do not recall a time in my life where I did what when I was you know wanted nothing to do with Christ and was in was uh was a total rebel against against him. Did they make you know did they fall into sin? Yes, they had sin in their life that they needed to repent for, but they wanted they wanted to please Christ, and when they recognized that sin, you know, when they transgressed God's law, they came back and they sought forgiveness. They never knew a life of rebellion against God. And so they never really experienced this big crisis moment, uh, although they can recall moments of repentance, yes. They never they never recall time when they went clearly from being a lost sinner to being a saved, you know, Christian, uh, because their parents raised them up to be. Now that that's a beautiful thing. That ought to be what we want. Uh we I don't think there's virtue in trying to convince our children who are being raised in our Christian home to think of themselves as lost sinners who need to pursue as long as they can a crisis experience because that confuses them. It confuses them on really what it means to be a Christian. Um so yeah, so there are a lot of dangers there, and it's really interesting to read some of the literature on this uh in in the middle of the uh the high revivalist period of the 19th century as well. Uh very interesting, some really strong back and forths on on these things, as you can imagine, because uh reformed revivalism, when I when I use that phrase, I'm talking mainly about uh you know the the uh second Great Awakening under Finney, which tended to be, well, the first was too under Edwards, but uh the one under Finney tended to be uh quite radical in its in its strategies and in its in its practice. Um so so we actually have, as far as revival theology goes, we actually have probably more in common with Jonathan Edwards on that than we do Finney. Uh that's for another time, another discussion. But part of that result of the second great awakening in Finney type revivalism is this view of uh viewing children as uh lost who we need to push toward alter experiences that are very traumatic. And and often that's all that results is trauma, uh, not so much the kind of salvation that God is intending.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Yeah. Yeah, the yeah, the emphasis on um praying through and um seeking until you find, uh, I appreciate there's something there that we want to test yourself to be sure that you're in the faith. You know, examine yourselves. Like there is, there is a there needs to be a seriousness and a depth there. But so often those things, those those terms are thrown around um like pray, you know, seek until you find or pray through, and and they're not clearly explained. And if you press people on what do they, what exactly does it mean to pray through, they're gonna fall back on their experience of praying through. Well, your experience might not be my experience. You know, I'm not a very emotional person generally. Yes, I've had some moments of prayer where I've wept for, you know, I mean, you know, a long time. I've had some of those deep, you know, transformational moments of prayer. But, you know, if if I've gone to the altar maybe 20 times in my life to pray, um, I I maybe one time I felt anything. You know, I'm just not that kind of person. So if you raise children to expect that they have to come to a moment where they pray through at the altar, um, and this I mentioned having this experience with somebody that I know where you have children going forward and they don't even know what it is that that it means. They don't know what it means to pray through, they don't even know what it is that they're seeking, but they just they they're they're being formed and shaped from very early on that this is normative of the Christian life, and then they just live in fear and anxiety. And we can we can look on and celebrate. Look at how many children came to the altar as if this is some kind of proof or evidence. Well, it could be that all we're really doing is we're just we're just uh harming this child's view of God, view of Christ, view of the church, view of themselves, uh sapping assurance from them. Um, whereas that's why I think confirmation, this approach to confirmation is it's more of a nurturing towards rather than this just like definite crisis, you know, thing. There is there is a moment in which we we call them to repentance and we call them to search their hearts and and be sure that they're in the faith, but it's done in the context of and and out of a whole life of nurture and formation, moving them towards this affirmation rather than just kind of this like passive, we just gotta wait till they get the age of accountability and then hammer them and tell them they got to pray through or they're gonna go to hell. Um that that's that's a lot for a child to process, it's a lot for an adult to process.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Yeah, so that takes us back to this Christian nurture uh movement of the 19th century, where the emphasis again was that we want to nurture, we want to, we want to bring our children up, as Paul says in Ephesians 6. We want to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. The idea is they are in the Lord, let's teach them what it means to live that out so that they need not know a day in which they are outside of the Lord. Uh that was that's a very optimistic view of grace. It is a very optimistic view of the uh unconditional uh results of the atonement of Christ. I say unconditional because uh there are conditional and there are unconditional results of uh the atonement. One of them, one of the unconditional results, is that according to Romans 5, what has been lost in Adam has been found through Jesus Christ for the whole human race, uh, so that a child is born automatically atoned for in uh at birth. Now the question comes up, okay, well, wait a second. You said earlier that Methodists denied inherited guilt. So what do they need to be atoned for automatically if they are not guilty? Well, atonement is not only for our acts of sin, it is also for what we call original sin or the corruption of human nature. That is, Christ came to heal humanity, and he does that through his atonement. And so children are not born having no need of healing, right? We all need healed because of our corrupted uh the the corruption of our human nature, and that's exactly what Christ came to do, and that healing comes in his total life, suffering, death, and resurrection, his whole recapitulation of human human being.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah, so I think that's a key point. We are assuming, even from the beginning of this conversation, a much broader understanding of atonement, um, not just simply atonement as for acts of sin and the guilt that comes from that, but uh speaking of atonement as incorporating all that Christ does in his incarnation, life of active righteousness, death, conquering of death through death, putting death under his feet, uh fulfilling all righteousness, uh, and even reigning in heaven, right? Is all comp like the atone that that's all comprehended under atonement. So atonement is this broader theological category for God really setting creation right and then taking it forward to to the end. So you see then um how children are comprehended in that. Uh it's it's really a much a much broader um concept.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Right, right. Yeah, so Jesus had a lot to say about children, obviously. We can read a lot about that. Uh one uh in the gospels, one objection that I have uh come across, and it's probably just one that is uh included in some of these uh that some of the Methodists were replying to, but one is that especially in Paul's letters, the objection will go something like, Yes, but doesn't you know don't all of the calls to you know salvation don't they call us to a conversion? You know, again, a conversion experience. Isn't salvation, especially in the letters, isn't it all about you know coming to faith and you know being exposed to you know preaching the gospel and then personally believing it? And you know, my response to that is yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very much Paul's letters. These are missionary letters, these are letters to churches, these are letters that are describing uh ministry to adults, people who are uh you know have lived as sinners, have rejected whatever light has been given to them, as Paul describes in Romans 1 and 2. And uh and they need conv they need a conversion. One of the uh I think it was um uh Henry Bland makes this comment saying, you know, uh children need converted too, but their conversion begins first with the act of God in Christ for all people, and they're and and then through Christian nurture. So it's not Christian nurture that that changes them, but it is Christian nurture that trains them and so helps convert what uh so for instance the mind which has been corrupted but can be converted through in in uh through Christian education. Now that's not to say that a parent converts their child from being a sinner to being a Christian, uh, that is solely an act of God, an act of grace. But we as parents have a role in their conversion, right? And that is in training them up to deny themselves of the selfish impulses which they feel and which still impact them, and teaching them to be loving and kind and to to be expressions of the Holy Spirit and the grace that he's given to them.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

So, conversion we typically think of as a um very much as a moment in time, as an event. Um, but it is it is worth noting that that again, that is that's a fairly new view. Conversion is typically understood as as entailing moments, but as actually being the whole process of turning, right? That begins with Christ affecting a turn in humanity as a whole. So um viewing uh having a view of conversion that keeps intention, the need for those moments, right, but also the the needs, the need for the whole process. I think that in some ways it reminds me of some of the the um debates over sanctification as well, right? Conversion, sanctification, we have to keep in tension that, yeah, there are these like you know, post-uh regeneration calls to present yourself. There are those moments are important, and I don't want to diminish those, but we also need to understand that that those are set within the context of a broader you know growth in in and towards Christ. And I think conversion is very similar. So viewing it that way um helps, I think, helps us as parents to feel like what we're doing and nurturing this child is not just preparatory, but it's actually part of God's ordained means of bringing this child um into uh into the mature Christ-likeness that He is paid for.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

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