Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
The Virgin Mary in Roman Catholic and Protestant Thought
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In this episode, David Fry and Johnathan Arnold discuss the doctrine of Mary.
- What is the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary (four Marian dogmas)?
- Should we call Mary the "Mother of God" (Theotokos)?
- Should we venerate Mary?
- Did Mary remain a virgin (perpetual virginity)?
- Was Mary born without original sin (immaculate conception)?
- Was Mary a co-redemptrix?
- Was Mary assumed into heaven?
- Should we ask Mary to intercede for us?
I was actually surprised as I was preparing for this topic at some of the things that I uncovered in regard to who has affirmed some of the things that today we would kind of uh raise our eyebrows at and think, really? You know, Luther thought that, Calvin thought that, Wesley thought that?
SPEAKER_03And a proper understanding of Mary will always lead us back to Christ. That's what Mary would have wanted.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_00We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary. Welcome to the Holy Joys Podcast. I'm David Fry, co-host with Jonathan Arnold. Uh great to be back this week. We are talking about the Virgin Mary. We're going to try this approach of four questions. Do you have four questions for us today, Jonathan?
SPEAKER_03I have eight.
SPEAKER_00You have eight questions? Okay. So we've changed our strategy from four questions to eight questions. All right. But I think we can probably go through them pretty quickly. So we actually talked a little bit about uh Mary in a previous podcast, uh, and that will probably be linked, I'm sure, in the show notes. Uh so let's let's look at this little part of our confession of faith uh where uh the Nicene Creed says uh that uh the Son of God was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary. Uh we're an Advent. We are in this time of waiting and anticipation. And uh although we cannot uh quite understand exactly what it was like to be the Virgin Mary, she too was waiting and anticipating uh whom the angel had revealed to her would be uh the Son of God. So uh when we think of Mary, uh, what do you think of?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think most people think of the Roman Catholic Church, right? And that probably would have been my answer three or four years ago. Um, but I've done a lot of reflection on the doctrine of Mary, partly by my uh reading of the Church Fathers. And probably the first thing that comes to mind is actually Irenaeus against heresies, what he says about Eve uh and Mary. He just has such a beautiful um passage on on um uh Mary as the second Eve.
SPEAKER_00Do you have that in front of you? I actually put that in my notes as well. Do you have that section?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, the knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience. What the Virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we'll talk about uh this uh idea. Does this idea that comes from uh the early fathers does it give way to some of the uh Roman Catholic doctrines, which I think some of the things that we're going to explore today, and I was actually surprised as I was preparing uh for this topic at uh some of the things that I uncovered in regard to uh who has affirmed some of the things that today we would kind of uh raise our eyebrows out at and think, like, really? You know, Luther thought that, Calvin thought that, Wesley thought that? And by the way, just because they thought that doesn't mean we do. Uh so we'll evaluate that. So let's I'll tell you what, let's do this. Throw out the questions, and then we'll go back and we'll take them one at a time today. So do you want to go ahead and go ahead and just go through the list of questions?
SPEAKER_03So, first of all, what is the Roman Catholic doctrine of Mary? Uh, we don't want that to drive the whole discussion. We want to be constructive, not just responsive, but it is helpful to have to gain some clarity there, and we'll touch on all those points. Secondly, should we call Mary the mother of God or Theatakos? And we're just gonna go over that briefly because we talked about that on the last podcast. Uh, third, should we venerate Mary? Fourth, did Mary remain a virgin, perpetual virginity? Uh, and that's uh that's exciting to talk about, looking forward to that. Uh, was Mary born without original sin, the Immaculate Conception? Uh, six, was Mary a co-redemptrix? Seven, was Mary assumed into heaven? And uh finally, should we ask her to intercede for us?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. All right. Yeah, so those are some specific questions. Uh, when I was writing questions here, I had some uh pretty broad questions, but I think actually expanding those to eight really gets to uh some more specificity here. So let's begin with uh let me go ahead and introduce to our listeners the uh four Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, because this really kind of defines or gives the the outline of uh modern day conversation about uh the Virgin Mary and how we ought to think about her. So very quickly, uh the four dogmas uh they can be divided into two into two kinds here. One is the first two are are ancient dogmas. They've been around in the church, affirmed as dogma for for many centuries, but then the the last two uh are actually pretty recent. Uh one's 19th century, one is 20th century. Uh so two are ancient, two are actually pretty modern. The first one is divine motherhood, uh, the dogma that the Roman Catholic Church has affirmed as dogma that Mary is Theotachos, the mother of God, and uh we will actually expand a little bit on that uh today as well. Uh this title, Theotachos, is one that has been used all the way back, at least to the third century, and has a lot of currency. Uh, the second dogma is also ancient, is the doctrine of perpetual virginity. This is the doctrine that Mary uh was a virgin at the birth of Christ and remained a virgin throughout her entire life. She had no other children, and this has a long history of affirmation. Uh, not only in the Roman Catholic Church, but Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, you know, the reform almost all the reformers affirmed uh the perpetual virginity of Mary. The third dogma is the Immaculate Conception. Uh, this one was made a dogma by Pope Pius IX in 1854, so it's relatively recent, and it is the view that Mary was conceived herself without original sin, and then went on and lived a sinless life. Uh so that one is not without controversy, even within the Roman Catholic Church. It was denied by Aquinas, for instance, and uh but it did become dogma in the Roman Catholic Church in 1854. And then the fourth is the assumption of Mary. This is the doctrine that Mary did not die, but was assumed uh, or we may say raptured into heaven, and that also was was affirmed by several Protestant reformers also. So those are the those are the four Marian dogmas. I think that is a quick summary of what the Roman Catholic framework is. So now let's have some uh interaction and what what is there to agree with, what is there uh that we do not agree with, and may even actually be dangerous.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I thought it would be worth just uh including this question again, should we call Mary the Mother of God, in case someone didn't listen to the previous podcast, uh, which by the way is titled Four Questions About the Incarnation, um, you know, and someone who might find this in our library later, but also because this is just really crucial, um, since it is uh unique as a creedal affirmation. The Chalcedonian Creed teaches us to confess that Christ was begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, so that's eternal generation. And in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God or God bearer, Theatakos, according to the manhood. And uh, there's an Eastern Orthodox church that I like to visit sometimes in our community, and that's it comes up in the liturgy several times, Theatakos uh is really big, and uh, and also in the Roman Catholic Church. Um, and this is this is something that we certainly affirm. All the reformers affirm affirm this, Methodists affirm this, um, and uh, of course, Elizabeth says, the mother of my Lord. Um, and I I think I quoted Gregory of Nazi Anza saying, if anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead. And you hear mother of God, and it can make some people uncomfortable if they're not familiar with it, but it's simply this the one whom Mary bore is God. And if we don't say Mary's the mother of God, we risk dividing the person of Jesus into two a God, you know, a God and then a man, but they're it's a God man. It's one person, fully God, fully man, two natures hypostatically united.
SPEAKER_00Right. So this was subject of a controversy in the early fifth century, right, when a number of pretty powerful bishops and archbishops uh from the east, particularly from Antioch, Constantinople, uh one known as Nestorius, uh really uh had a problem with this term Theotachos and refused to use it. And Cyril of Alexandria uh uh corresponded with him uh quite a bit, and uh eventually this all came to a head in both the Council of Ephesus in 531 and then uh well about 20 years later at Chalcedon. And uh through the through these years uh the church came to a consensus, a much needed consensus on language regarding uh Christology. So, you know, this is not an episode on Nestorianism, but I guess the comments I want to make on Nestorianism is that this is an era in which Eastern Greek language is coming into contact or conflict with Western Latin language, and the they're almost two different worlds. They're using language to try to convey similar concepts, but Nestorius could not come to grips with the idea that Mary was uh was the mother of God. And he's coming from the approach of you know, God can't be born, God's not created. That sounds Aryan. Well, in the process, then he did not give a constructive account of of how the two natures inherited one person, and so uh the the church was hearing that, people were hearing that as uh a separation of the two natures. And uh and so Theo Takos uh did gain currency then in the East as well. Although today there's continues to be a strong Nestorian presence in the Middle East, Syria, uh Northern Iraq, uh Armenia, that area, uh Kurdistan, a lot of the Christians in that area today still uh tend or still are uh quite Nestorian in that they don't uh confess the otakas for whatever that's worth.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that brings us to our next question. Should we venerate Mary? Um, you know, I hear a I heard a lot growing up about Mary worship in the the Roman Catholic Church, and I think any any true Roman Catholic, at least one who's consistent with their actual confessions, would say, no, no, no, we don't worship Mary, we venerate her. So what does that mean? Should we do it? And to venerate someone is simply really to regard them very highly and honor them, especially as an act of religious devotion. Now that can take a lot of forms, right? That can take, say you're hail Mary's, right? Which is, I think, a little bizarre. Um, or it can take the form of confessing her as Theatakos in the Creed. Like that's an act of worship, confession of creeds. So I would say that there is a sense in which we venerate her. There's a sense in which Elizabeth venerated her, right? Blessed are you among women. There's a sense in which Mary, Mary expected future generations to acknowledge her blessedness. This isn't, well, Elizabeth said that, we don't have to say that. Well, Mary said, for behold, from now on, all generations will call me blessed. I think it's good to say, you know, acknowledge in our liturgy, in our read scripture readings, read these passages and give our amen to it. Yes, she is blessed. What greater honor than to be the bearer of God? No human being has ever received such great honor. Um, and I think that the issue, though, is that we can take this too far. And I like to point to Luke 11, where uh Jesus is speaking, and a woman in the crowd raises her voice and says, Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts at which you nursed. But he said, Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Um, so you know, Jesus doesn't just say, Oh, yes, let's just all sit around and say our Hail Marys, but no, there's like, let's keep the main thing, the main thing here. And and there's a limitation placed there on our veneration.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So let me insert an anecdote here. So those of you that know me know that my mother was raised Roman Catholic. So, you know, my grandmother, grandfather, aunts, uncles, you know, they all were were very devout Roman Catholics and still are. And uh, so my grandmother, uh, who was just down the street from us growing up, I would go over, of course, I was being raised in a Protestant, you know, holiness church, and we would go over there for you know any occasion, and she had you know her icons and she had you know her her Virgin Mary's and she had just all of these, all of the just a lot of uh you know, her candles were burning. She had you know, like this four-foot Virgin Mary, ceramic Virgin Mary in her front yard, right? Like she wanted people to know she is a devout Roman Catholic. Well, growing up, I I would watch her, you know, kneel before in her little corner that she had set up. She would kneel down, she would light her candles, you know, she would go quietly, you know, kind of mouthing words to herself. And like to me, that was like idol worship. Like that's exactly the image I had. You know, here you these figurines here, she's praying to them, she's lighting candles to them. Like, what's what in the world? And so um, and honestly, as I came to understand her faith and and others uh within uh the Roman Catholic congregation here locally, um, I began to realize that I'm not sure that there was a lot of discernment between the material and uh and and the spiritual. Like I actually to this day think that there was a little bit of idolatry happening there because there was a lot of faith put into the elements, the the material elements there. And it was like you cannot pray, you cannot have faith unless you are doing it in this way, and you have to have these set up. I mean, it was it was actually quite idolatrous. Now I understand now better the the official doctrine of the church, um, but but the doctrine of the church gives way to practices, right?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And I I've seen this around the world and other countries and cultures, and those of you who have spent any time in the mission field, especially in Latin America, you know, you've seen how some of these doctrines just come out as pretty blatant idolatry. Uh so that is that is how I understand the actual practice in many cases. Um and even though in my own mind I can understand that there is a distinction, the Roman Catholic Church has officially made some statements that would try to steer clear of that. Uh it doesn't always happen in reality.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I totally agree with that. And sometimes I get so frustrated by the Protestant overreaction that I forget to affirm. Yeah, I'm totally, I'm with you. I just one time I was in a church service where we sang Mary Did You Know. Somebody sang Mary Did You Know, and there was somebody there who was like, I didn't like that song. It talks about Mary too much. It's like, really? You know, it's not even talking about Mary, it's talking about Mary, did you know who Jesus was, right? Like, so it's rhetorical. And and I think we have this kind of like allergy to Mary because of the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church. And yeah, we want to steer clear of those abuses. But I think, yeah, we we also, in a sense, as Christians, uh, she's in our confession. She's um had an incredible role to play, has a huge role to play in biblical theology. Um, and there's a lot that that I think we can say in her praise and just acknowledging the dignity of womanhood, the dignity of motherhood, uh, of God, her role in God's redemptive plan. And I think she can stand as an inspiration to Christians, um, much like Abraham or David, but in in some ways in an even more exalted sense because of her unique role in in being the Godbearer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, and I think we honor her first because she is included in our confession, you know, that that the Son of God was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary. So there is an honor that's given there. I I actually don't use the word venerate just because that's uh not because of any technical reason, but because I want to distinguish somehow in my language between a Roman Catholic practice of worshiping Mary, what appears to be worship, from the kind of honor that that is actually deserving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good yeah, and I don't either in my teaching or preaching. So in the broadest sense, generic sense, we venerate her, but we what we really mean is we honor her. Uh, it's not a central act of our religious devotion in the way that it is for Roman Catholics. What about this next question? And that brings us to this second Marian dogma. Did Mary remain a virgin? This this question of perpetual virginity. And you alluded to this in the introduction. Uh, this is one of those points at which people are surprised. I was surprised the first time I learned it. Like Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Beza, Cranmer, Bullinger, Francis Turretin, right? All these guys are like strong defenders of, yeah, you know, and and uh and and Calvin especially says it's like excessively ignorant to say to just brush this off because Jesus had brothers and sisters, right? We can get to that in a second. But you know, I just basically that's what I I hear people do is just say, oh, that's just that's a Roman Catholic thing. But this is one of those points where it's it's a mistake, I think, to say this is a uniquely Roman Catholic doctrine. It's really much more Catholic than that.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Yeah, it is. It is. And of course, the the immediate question that people will ask is, well, wait a second, doesn't you know, do the gospel writers not tell us that Mary had other children and that Jesus had brothers and sisters? And the answer is yes. Uh, you know, they're some of them are named, right? At least four of them are named. Of course, these would be half brothers, uh, half sisters, but they are my understanding, which is a common understanding uh today, is that these are children that Mary had with Joseph uh after uh the birth of Christ. Um it really it comes down to that. How do we understand like Mark 6, 3? Uh and uh um a common understanding through history has been that uh the gospels are describing close relatives, but not not blood relatives of Jesus or of Mary.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and the fastest way I think to get a hold of that is that like Abraham and Lot, uh Jacob and Laban are described in the Septuagint as brothers. So brothers in the Greek is a much broader term that can just indicate close family relationships. Um and so because this doctrine has developed of Mary's perpetual virginity, um, then you know, those passages coming to those passages, this is a way to deal with that. So like Luther says, I'm inclined to agree with those who declare that brothers really mean cousins here for holy writ, and the Jews always call cousins. Uh brothers. Uh Calvin refers to uh Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons because Christ's brothers are sometimes mentioned. Under the word brethren, the Hebrews included all cousins and other relations. So that's one. The other view that was more common in the earlier centuries, like especially in Jerome's day, was that these could have been children of a previous marriage of Joseph. Which I'm not convinced of that view. I don't affirm the perpetual virginity of Mary. I'm not opposed to it, you know, like I'm not going to war on that view or whatever.
SPEAKER_00My question is, is this one of those doctrines? I think it is, that as you as you kind of stretch this out, then it becomes necessary. Because I think that will take us uh maybe to one of our next questions with the the purity of Mary. So it's almost like she needed to continue in a state of virginity for some reason in order to speak of her own purity and being a fit vessel for the Son of God, right? So there's kind of in my mind, I've always kind of connected like, is that what the intent is here? That they're trying to protect Mary from somehow being a uh, you know, an imperfect vessel, and to which I want to say, well, you know, Jesus is not afraid of being touched by sinners, right? I mean, he came to be touched. So like I don't understand why we would have to protect Mary from, and I'm getting into you know the Immaculate Conception idea here as well, but this is going to come up. Well, let's go there then. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know what? One thing I I wanted to mention, I just uh since we are Wesleyan, uh it's worth noting if you want to find Wesley on this, and we'll have this in the show notes, he wrote a letter to a Roman Catholic where he kind of takes almost like a confessional, like states, I believe this, I believe that. And this is his statement about Christ. I believe that he was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person. There's that Chalcedonian Christology, being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin. So just a explicit uh affirmation, confessional style affirmation of a perpetual virginity there from Wesley.
SPEAKER_00So again, for our Wesleans, John Wesley affirmed the second dogma of uh Marian doctrine dogma, and that is the perpetual virginity.
SPEAKER_03And he's probably following especially Cranmer there, who accepted it on the basis of ecclesial authority. And uh one one uh theologian, Protestant theologian, who's offering a historical theology of the reformers, referred to them as being unanimous on the subject. So the reformers were unanimous in their affirmation of Mary's perpetual virginity. So it's something to wrestle with, something to think about, uh, because we respect church authority, right? We're we don't, it's not ultimate. Scripture is our ultimate authority. I've not yet been been convinced, but I also, as a practice, don't say just because I haven't been convinced or just because I haven't heard the argument, right, doesn't necessarily mean ipso facto, well, I just don't believe it because you got to show me chapter and verse, right? We want to take a humble posture. We are part of, you know, part of confessing Catholicity in our confession is acknowledging that we're not the first person to read and reflect on the Bible or to reflect on these things. So there, so I tend to assume if all the Protestant reformers and all these, you know, in the in the great tradition have affirmed this, or many of them have affirmed this, there's probably something that I haven't come across yet or that I haven't seen that's pretty compelling. That doesn't mean ultimately I have to confess it or believe it. I don't think it's an essential matter by any stretch. Um, but it is just, it's one of those things where I just think we want to be humble. We want to be really humble here as we reflect theologically.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So the next question is was Mary born without original sin? This is the doctrine or the dogma of the immaculate conception. So again, this is a fairly recent dogma. Uh, it is one that has been highly debated through the centuries. Uh again, I think I mentioned already that Aquinas rejected this, right? But it is now officially dogma in the Roman Catholic Church. Uh, this is the view that Mary was conceived without original sin and in fact continued to live uh sinlessly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So maybe I'll share an anecdote here. Um I've only been to Cincinnati a few times, but I had a meeting at uh God's Bible School and College that I was attending. Actually, I think it was a Holy Joy's board meeting, maybe we had held there on campus one time. And um I had some free time and I went to Mass one morning at the old St. Mary's Catholic Church. And I walked in, and of course, it's the old St. Mary's Church. So there is, you know, there is just Mary to the extreme, right? More than more than a usual cathedral and uh or church. And and uh on the, I think it's on the left side when you walk in there, there's this giant statue of Mary, and above her is this inscription in all capital letters, I am the Immaculate Conception. And uh that was that was really troubling. I'm familiar with the Doctor of the Immaculate Conception. Um I don't, I certainly don't confess it. Um but to see it stated that way, like those I am statements, I am the bread of life, I am, you know, that Jesus gives, He we know there's something about that. He's claiming something unique, right? He he is something that others aren't. And it seems like this is just like exhibit A of how this doctrine, I think, takes something which is unique to Christ and and then applies it to Mary, and then to put those words in her mouth in that way, you know, is just just really yeah, disconcerting.
SPEAKER_00My thought on this this doctrine, I've I've had this question for so many times. I just need to ask a Roman Catholic theologian, I guess, but does how does this not lead to an absurdity? Like, doesn't this just keep going back? Like if we have to protect the purity of Mary so that she is, yes, a humble but sinless vessel for the Son of God, like how does this not just keep going back? Um so it actually becomes Mary herself who, if she is conceived sinless, breaks the um the curse of Eve. Yes? Like like it stops with her.
SPEAKER_03Like how does that not how is that not the isn't that assuming though, maybe a certain doctrine of the perpetuation of original sin or of human corruption?
SPEAKER_00Because maybe I guess no, I don't think I don't think necessarily so. So the way it's just if she's untouched, if we if if we affirm that she was untouched by original sin, like how so? How so?
SPEAKER_03The same way Christ was, I guess, right, by the Holy Spirit. So if you view so for example, one view of original sin is like original sin is the absence of the Holy Spirit's like indwelling and controlling influence. Like in curvatu since is the result of the spirit leaving you, right? Your original sin. So Christ is filled with his whole human nature is filled with the Holy Spirit from the moment of conception. So for that reason, he's not in curvatu sinsei. So you could apply that to Mary. And I don't think you're that logically entails that then her parents. Maybe it doesn't be. I mean, I surely it doesn't have original sin.
SPEAKER_00Surely it doesn't, because I've I mean I don't read about that, so I'm just missing something in my head. But I do like to hear you defend the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we'll just pull that quote as that out and put it on social media.
SPEAKER_00Everyone heard that. Jonathan Arnold is defending the not really. Not really. All right.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, but on that point, something that I think is really crucial is that in the Roman Catholic Catechism, uh, Catechism of the Catholic Church, go read that. If you want to know what they believe on anything, that's that's the go-to. But um it says what the this is what the catechism says, what the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ. So I think this is a reflection of a deeper uh theological commitment to the close relationship between Christ and his mother in a way that Protestants don't typically think. Um, so as the temple, as you know, Mary the Temple, this idea that she somehow participates or shares in Christ in a way that that Christians don't until she's the first Christian, right? And so she like participates in the benefits of redemption from the beginning in a way that others don't until later, or something like that. There's there's something about her bearing him that they they see like this close spiritual relationship between the two.
SPEAKER_00Which then gives rise to, I think, our next question, and that is was Mary a co-redemtrix? And so the church has not affirmed this. In fact, uh, I know Pope Francis and then before him, uh Benedict Benedict XVI, also known as Joseph Ratzinger, they both denied this categorically. They denied the propriety of calling Mary a co-redemptrix. So, and that kind of gets back to your point there. Um, and so this is not dogma in the Roman Catholic Church, but this is something that some have affirmed. Uh so I think it would be wrong for a Protestant for us to say blanketly that, well, the Roman Catholics think that Mary, you know, is also saves us. Um that's not actually what they believe. And of course we don't either. Uh what we are talking about is what is the role of this one who is blessed among women, uh, and what can we as Christians, uh, what can we learn about the incarnate word of God, uh, but also about the uh the kind of of relationship and union that is possible between God and man, that a a woman can uh carry the Son of God uh in her womb, uh, that God would choose to be manifest and to relate to humanity in such a way, right? I mean, that's just mind-blowing. And I don't think that Protestants that we have thought that I know let me just speak for myself. I have not th thought through very well the profound uh implications theologically of the fact that a a woman, Mary, a a common you know girl, a humble woman, carried the son of God, and that God is saying something in that. It does not make Mary co-redemtrix, uh, but I do think that there's more profundity there than what I have been able to um flesh out, pardon the pun. But I think there's a lot there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I certainly have a lot of reflection of my own that I that I like to do. Um, I did write an article that came out of a sermon I preached for Mother's Day, Mary, Mother of God, the equality of women, the dignity of motherhood. And um it it struck me as Mother's Day was approaching, I was pastoring somewhere where Mother's Day was a big deal, you know, in the church. And I think we should observe recognize it, honor our mothers, but maybe not make it everything uh that maybe the way that we do. But but setting that aside, I thought, wow, how is it that I've heard a ton of Mother's Day sermons and nothing on Mary? Like it seems pretty problematic that we Mother's Day goes by and we can talk about all these other biblical mothers, but but it's like we have this aversion to Mary again, and uh preached a sermon on that, talked about they talk us, talked about some of that, had a really good response. I had so many women in the church who were like, whoa, I never heard that, but that is just so and they and I think it's it's like Jesus is our ultimate role model. He's our we follow him, but we follow him as we follow those who follow him. And for women, having Mary to look to as a as an inspiration, uh had that's something that we've seen in the church tradition, and that's really meaningful. So anyway, that article is a resource, and we have some others on Holy Joys. But um, as we as we think about what the the Roman Catholics believe on this, when they're when they get something right, they often get it right really well because they they have been reflecting on this for a very long time collectively. And I really like this statement in the uh in the catechism. Uh the Father of Mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life. And this, you know, really comes back to the statement by Irenaeus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience. What the Virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith. And this is not direct result, right? Irenaeus is not saying that like, you know, Mary's obedience in and of itself saves us, but rather that through Mary's obedience, like God incorporated Mary's obedience into our redemption. And actually, um I'll say this and stop, I'm going too long here. But Emerson and Stance, Matt Emerson and Luke Stamps wrote an article, The Seed of Woman, Mary among the Protestants, and so rich. Uh, looking at especially at like the typology, Old Testament typology. But this is what they say under God's sovereignty, Mary's obedient response was a means by which God in Christ accomplished redemption. We could say the same about Abraham's faith, David's obedience. Only an overreaction to Rome's Mariology would lead us to deny this. Seeing Mary as having a role in the crushing of Satan's head does not take away from the unique identity of Christ as the only mediator between God and man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good. I think that's helpful. I think that is a um I think there are a lot of parallels through through scripture. We can think of Peter's confession. I think there's a similar dynamic uh in our understanding of a different doctrine of in Peter's Peter's confession and his faith in in Christ, Mary's obedient faith, uh making her uh a vessel fit for uh the Son of God. Okay, so let's uh let's go to our last uh two questions. Uh the seventh question is, was Mary assumed into heaven? So this goes into the fourth dogma, uh the assumption of Mary, which is the view that uh Mary was uh, for lack of a better word, uh raptured into heaven. Uh, I think Timothy George did a podcast on um uh I forget the name. It's uh Christianity Day, one of CT's podcasts, uh, several years ago during Advent. And I remember him saying that uh this is basically what you know your typical evangelical uh person believes is going to happen to all believers, right? That we're all going to be raptured. So he kind of viewed this as a pretty harmless uh doctrine. I don't have a strong opinion about it, other than I don't know why I would believe that Mary was raptured into heaven. Um there's no indication in scripture that was the case, and I don't know of any other reason to to affirm that. Yeah. Same here. And I I th I think it's another example then of a kind of piling on that I see uh in the veneration of Mary that, well, if if this is so, then we probably ought to believe that she didn't suffer death either. If she was sinless, you know, why would she die? I don't know. I I don't know the logic there. I it just it seems to me to be a piling on that is totally uncalled for. So that goes to their last question, and and this is one that is um I would say is based on the four dogmas of uh Marian theology, but uh is uh the question of of intercession. Um you made mentioned earlier of the Hail Mary, which is uh really comes in two parts, right? It's Hail Mary, full of grace. Uh, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb. Well, that's Luke 1.42, right? Uh and then the last part is Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now in the hour of our death. Well, that's something that's added later, post-Protestant Reformation, right? So that is, you know, the first part of that, I think, is pretty much straight out of Scripture. Uh the second part, though, is specifically addressed to Mary to intercede for us as sinners in particular. So there may be a little connotation here of co-redemtrics, but the question is, should we ask Mary to intercede for us? Uh, which I think there's a prior question to that, and that is do should Christians pray to anyone other than to Jesus Christ for intercession?
SPEAKER_03Um what if we so let me play devil's advocate here? Here I am again defending the Roman Catholics. No, not really. Certainly don't affirm this, but um, when you put it like that, should we pray, right, to them? Uh that puts up a lot of resistance. But what if we just said, should we talk to them? Um and it's like it's like this. I might say, hey, Dr. Fry, will you pray for me? Pray for me, right? And we talk about intercessory prayer. Well, intercession is just a it's just a synonym for mediation. Like I understand mediation has a lot of theological content to it, but those words can be used in a general sense in a synonymous way. So we understand, and the Roman Catholic Church understands that we have one mediator, Christ. Um, but we also ask one another to pray for us, you know, when we're when we're weary. So I I think in some ways it's even it even goes further to like that's really what this question comes down to. It does is can sh can we and then should we ask saints not just living but dead to pray for us?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and this is not just a Roman Catholic thing. I there I know many Protestants, and this is common and and I say common, it more common than what you would think among Protestants to pray to saints, uh, to talk to saints, uh, to ask saints to uh you know to pray for you. Um and that is that's exactly the argument. In fact, I had a conversation with somebody who who raised that same point. Like, well, you would ask someone who you know is you know has has not died yet, who's who's alive to pray. Well, we believe that those who have passed on are alive with Christ uh and you know are present with Christ, so why why not? And they're praying revelation, right? Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, yeah. And they are praying, right? So um this is something that I think is I guess to that question, I think okay, all right, fine, no, no, no harm, no foul. Um unless you're going to miss that very important passage in Romans, uh, was it Romans 8, where the Son and the the Holy Spirit are interceding before the Father on our behalf. So, like yeah, I appreciate when you pray for me, Jonathan. I I ask you know other pastor friends, you know, to pray for me on many occasions. Um, but I I generally go straight to God, right? I go straight to to uh our Heavenly Father, who I have access through his son and through the Spirit. And so I don't feel a compulsion, I don't even see logically a why we should have a compulsion to pray to the saints. Um if someone does, is there is that harmful? I would say only insofar as they believe that that the Father is inaccessible to us. Because then you get into some problems with um with understanding what Christ has done for us.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, totally. I've never prayed to the saints, never planned to have too many theological concerns and reservations to do that. Uh, would have to work through a lot of things before I To go to do that, but but let me say this on a positive note. The reason why I soften tremendously uh on this point is because of my developing understanding of what we mean when we confess in the Apostles' Creed the communion of saints. And that communion, uh, as it was meant and intended by the church uh originally and throughout history, is that this is an unbroken communion that transcends all barriers, right? Geography, time, space, certainly death. Um Christ has conquered death. And so we are in communion with the dead saints spiritually. We're united by one spirit. Our spirit, in some way, through union with Christ, is as though it's we're seated in heavenly places, right? And in some way, they're with us. Paul says, I'm with you when you gather, right? We're surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we go to the Lord's table, we eat a meal with Christ, with our local church, and then also with the whole communion. And we have such a diminished sense of that. And without embracing what I see as excesses, I think we need to have a richer and a deeper sense of our unity with the people of God in all times and places and with that great cloud of witnesses.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I would let me just raise this as a uh as a point for theological reflection. Uh you mentioned it actually when you brought up the that Christmas picture. And that is uh in in this work that you quote from actually earlier, uh Lumen Gentium, uh, which is from the uh Second Council of Vatican, uh, they they hold Mary as a symbol of what they call the most perfect realization of the church. So as we talk about okay, how do we honor Mary? Well, I think first of all, by I think recognizing her humble response and faithful obedience that is to be emulated in every believer, right? And that in some sense we we receive Christ as we are are receptive humbly of the grace of God. So I think that part is easily understood. Um but then theologically, should we understand Mary as in some way symbolizing the perfection of the church, the uh like the bride of Christ? Um and again, I've not reflected deeply on this. This is something that's you know fairly new to me as I've been studying uh more. Actually, my my reading on Mary actually started from from Thomas Torrents uh and and with Thomas Odin, who both have excellent sections in their works. Uh The Word of Life by Thomas Odin and The Incarnation by Thomas Torrents. You know, these are uh you know staunchly evangelical Protestant thinkers who are thinking through the theological implication of the virgin birth and the virgin Mary herself and what that means. And so that's that's gotten a lot of thoughts rolling in my brain. And I don't know exactly how to think about uh that statement that she is you know the most perfect manifestation. Do you have any thoughts? Have you done any reading or reflection on that?
SPEAKER_03A little bit. I think that comes from Revelation 12, primarily, because that's a place where Mary and the church are used, are depicted in such a way that they're almost inseparable. Like you read that passage and you think you're reading about Mary, and then you realize you're reading about the church. Um, and then you think about, you know, how the church is is is typified as a woman. So a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, moon under her feet, on her head a crown of 12 stars, she's pregnant, crying out birth pains and the agony of giving birth. Uh, and then Satan tries to defeat this child. The dragon stood before the woman who's about to give birth. Uh, so you know, clearly, right, the male child that she gives birth to in verse 5 there is one who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron. So we have Mary giving birth to the male child, or do we? Or do we have the people of God giving birth to the male child, right? Uh clothed with the sun, moon under her feet, crown of 12 stars, right? So is this a symbol of Mary or the church? And most commentators, including Protestant commentators, will say both, both. Like the imagery is interwoven here. So I think that passage set the church on a trajectory of reflecting on Mary in her relationship with the church. And then given um, you know, her her role as like the first Christian, the first one to believe on the Messiah, right, when he comes, he hear the Annunciation. Um, that that you can kind of see how that that idea would would germinate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's very interesting. Uh and yeah, I would I'd like to reflect more on Revelation 12. Uh do we have that image anywhere else? Is there any other image that we should be reflective on in scripture in regard that would tie that closely?
SPEAKER_03Not so clearly. There's notoriously not much about Mary outside the Gospels, which is one reason why I have, you know, been a little hesitant at how far you know the Doctrine of Mary's been taken. I I sat at lunch when I and I keep talking about this because this was a recent experience, so it's fresh on my mind in relationship to Mary, but I sat with some of my Eastern Orthodox friends. They have a meal every service after their worship, which is a beautiful thing. And we we discussed Doctor of Mary. I just said, you know, hey, here's some things, these are some reasons why I couldn't join the Eastern Orthodox Fellowship, even though I appreciate a lot of things about your tradition. Help me think through these. And one of the things I mentioned was this very fact about Mary. Like, scripture doesn't say that much about her. You think we would hear more in the New Testament. And, you know, they made a couple of them, I think they've been, they've been catechized this way, because a couple of them jumped and were like, well, that's because you know they were protecting Mary and there was such widespread persecution. And I'm like, uh, that's been kind of debunked. You know, that's not really uh a very good explanation. So I I as far as I know, this is really the only clear reference to Mary outside the Gospels that comes to mind. I'm probably missing something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um yeah, I know I don't I don't think so. I I don't I can't think of anything else either, but I think so. As as we finalize our thoughts here in regard to uh you know us relating to Mary and what what can we learn from Mary as far as our own waiting and anticipation anticipating through the season of Advent, especially, right? Uh this is the season in which obviously Mary's role is is a point of emphasis. She's kind of the center point with the new the new child in the in the manger. You know, it's Mary, and then Joseph is usually kind of the background as we depict. Um what has been meaningful to me has been the the story of of anticipation. So that that first chapter of Luke, especially. Uh we often jump to Luke chapter two, but uh I would encourage people to tarry in the first chapter and to join uh Elizabeth and Zacharias and and uh and Mary in the anticipation, their anticipation of the coming of the Son of God, the birth of the Son of God, and uh reflect on the songs that are included there. And I I think that could enrich our own uh observance of this time of Advent.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I'll end with this thought. I I love to incorporate art into my teaching and um found that really meaningful. And when I've taught uh on the Apostles' Creed about the Virgin Mary, I have presented uh the class with two images of Mary. One is by Henry Oswatanner of The Annunciation, where Mary is depicted as this poor, sheepish Jewish girl kind of leaning over with hunched shoulders, uh, and it pictures her as a vessel. She is an obedient vessel that God is using to accomplish the supernatural redemption. And then I turn to another uh an icon, a Russian Orthodox icon, and it depicts Mary as very dignified and as holding the Christ child and as uh being beautifully dressed, and it shows how she is honored as the God-bearer. Um, but what fascinates me about that icon, and it's part of a tradition, and I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation, uh, Hodogetria, uh, which in in Greek means she who points the way, it's part of a tradition of iconography that depicts Mary, if you look carefully, pointing at Christ. And the idea is that as great as Mary is presented, right, as beautifully as she's presented, as dignified, as honorable as she is, blessed among women, she's pointing us to the way. And a proper understanding of Mary will always lead us back to Christ. That's what Mary would have wanted. And I think that beautifully captures uh our posture towards Mary.
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