Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
We're Back! An Update on Holy Joys
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After a three-month hiatus, Johnathan Arnold and David Fry discuss why they were gone and what to expect from Holy Joys going forward.
You're listening to the Holy Joys podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_03The last time that we were together was back in March of this year. And after that, we kind of dropped off the map. We had been together in January after taking about a month break and said that we were ready to jump back into the podcast. We had two episodes after that, uh three episodes after that, I guess, and then um everything just kind of fizzled out. So um we're here, we're back, and we want to give a little bit of an update on what's been going on in our lives and ministries that has uh caused us to take basically a three-month break. Um things were it was difficult for me to keep up with Holy Joys, and then I got to a point where I realized I really just need to step away uh for a time. And we have been doing some things behind the scenes, but we have not released uh a podcast since the end of March or any articles since April. Um so why don't we just start here with a quick update on what's been going on and um and why we've been away for so long?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think the last time we were together, you had a birthday, and uh, we are just trying to get in before you have another one, right? Um and but you are you are a busy father, a father of um a uh is Adam three yet? He's four, yeah. Is he four? Oh wow, okay. And then uh Teddy? Mm-hmm. Five months. Five months, all right. So uh that's what's happened in the last five months, right? Uh uh, but uh obviously we went to uh uh we're both pastors, we are in ministry, uh not only in our local church, but obviously with Holy Joys. Holy Joys has been active, just not in these particular ways. And so let's talk, I guess, first a little bit about what has been happening with Holy Joys, and then maybe we can get into some of the personal stuff, what's been happening outside of that in our personal lives. So uh I know here recently uh I have gotten involved again after quite a hiatus in the catechism that we're the next catechism that we're working on, um, which is actually one of a few projects, but it's kind of the main project that we're pushing behind the scenes now. And uh you have you've kind of led that uh process and and then we've been having conversations about that. Uh tell us a little bit about that project and where it is now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so even though uh we haven't released articles and podcasts, we have put a lot of time into that, uh into that catechism, in part because uh I printed a draft and now I'm printing a second draft to use with our church. And so that allows me to use it for ministry right now and also to get feedback as we work towards a final draft. Um, but that book is uh turning out to be about a 300-page book. The first 100 pages is the heart of the catechism. It's about 67 questions and answers right now. And with each question and answer, it's followed by explanatory notes that kind of break down the key words and phrases, uh, key scripture verses, liturgical insights, you know, what does this have to do with the church calendar and the church's uh worship, uh, just things like that. And then those questions are broken down further into six major sections or chapters for use with a church membership or baptism class. So um, you know, you start out, there's a class outline, and then each chapter has the questions for the teacher to expound with his class, to explain with his class. It's followed by weekly assignments, uh, working through the Gospel of John, um, establishing a habit of daily devotions, um, and then later in the class, things like making restitutions and writing down your personal testimony, you know, everything that you want in preparation for receiving members uh through baptism and church membership to ensure that they understand the gospel, they've counted the cost of discipleship, and um, and do that basically by expounding the Creed, Ten Commandments, and Lord's Prayer. And then following that, the next 200 pages are uh just a wealth of discipleship resources, resources for the Christian life. Um so there's an introduction to the discipleship journey, and then there's a bunch of next steps for disciples at various stages of the Christian journey. There's outlines for daily devotions, uh, starts with a simple outline, then it gets longer than the traditional order for morning and evening prayer from Wesley Sunday service. Um, there's Bible reading plans, there's just a ton of stuff there for pastors, for disciples, and so it's kind of a handbook for discipleship, uh, not just the QA's. Sure.
SPEAKER_01So this is a a large leap from the kids' catechism to a full-on adult catechism. Uh it is uh subtitled a discipleship handbook, correct? A new Methodist Catechism and Discipleship Handbook. So uh the catechism portion is a kind of centerpiece, but it's surrounded by these other uh resources. And as I have you know been reviewing it and contributing as well, uh this is for personal use, it's for use in your home with your family, it's for use even in your church. Uh there's some liturgy there, there uh you know, for classes. Uh it's just it's a really well-rounded, I believe, resource uh that can be used. Now, uh let me ask you a question. We will we'll probably do another episode just on the catechism, but a couple of questions here for our listeners as they anticipate. Uh so we have the kids catechism. We have some news on that as well that we'll talk about in a second. But uh then we have this new methods catechism. Uh there's there's a that's a pretty big leap, right, between the two. There's a big gap. Uh is there anything to fill that gap?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so we're also working on uh the middle catechism. I don't know what we're gonna call it yet. Um, but the the kids catechism was originally it started out for my little boy uh when he was two years old. And so it's a preschool catechism. Um I know there's children seven, eight years old that have been using it and their parents really like it and find it helpful. And I think because it it does introduce all kind of the major categories of the faith, I think it is helpful for older children, but it's really designed for children ages two to five. Um, this middle catechism will be for children in middle childhood, which is ages six to twelve, and then the adult catechism will be ages 13 and up. And so there is um there is gonna be through through these three catechisms a lot of continuity. So, like in the kids' catechism, the preschool catechism, it asks, why did God make you? And then the child answers, to be happy. Um, the adult catechism says, Why did God make you? And the answer is, I was made to be happy in God, and I will be restless until I find my rest in him. Um the middle catechism will kind of bridge those two and we'll have a further simplified, shorter answer. And then one of the things that I'm hoping to do is with each QA for the middle catechism, to also write that answer in metrical form and pair it with familiar uh children's tunes. You know, uh take a Jesus loves me, you know, find out the meter and pair that with the uh answer in metrical form so that they can not only be um memorized in QA form, but also sung to aid in memorization and grasping the key concepts. So that's a big project. Um I anticipate that the adult catechism will come out next. Um hoping to have kind of a, I don't know about a final draft, but getting pretty close uh by the end of this year. We do have funds pledged to completely cover that uh project. And so we're excited about that and working on finding an artist. We want to have this beautifully illustrated. I want to get an original set of drop caps and original artwork for each major chapter and then cover design and so forth. So I'm looking for this to be kind of an immersive um experience, not just bare content, but it just a kind of a beautiful journey that engages you with hymns and um and Christian artwork and all sorts of things along the way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, very excited about that. This is gonna be a I I believe an incredible uh contribution for uh the Methodist tradition. And uh, of course, we have uh the Global Methodist Church has produced its uh catechism, right? And so comment a little bit here briefly on where you see this fitting traditionally.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so the uh global Methodist Catechism is fairly short, very simple, and does not um draw much from the kind of historic language of prior catechisms, creeds, and confessions. Um so I think it's a good resource. I've looked at it. There's some things I like about it, there's some things I don't like about it, um, but it's it's basically just a little booklet. Um it doesn't have any additional resources, explanatory notes. This is a a huge project. Um this is the kind of resource that people just, you know, hopefully will carry with them everywhere. It's kind of like a you know, your Bible, your catechism, and your uh handbook. I see the uh I see the Global Methodist Catechism as being the kind of thing that you could use with a brand new believer, and then they're gonna put it on the shelf and maybe refer to it once in a while, but it's not like the handbook that we're we're looking to implement. Um different needs, suiting, you know, addressing different needs, and uh hopefully uh we will find some some in the Global Methodist Church and in conservative Methodism that will use our our book.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Yeah, I think the scope of use for this new Methodist Catechism is uh actually quite unique. Almost really parallels um on one hand, maybe something like a a prayer book, like the Book of Common Prayer, on one side, um and uh uh on the other, a there aren't many examples, but uh the discipleship handbook of some sort, right? Um some sort of workbook or tool that you would use for new disciples. So it's kind of I think stands between those, kind of brings those two ideas together, I think very beautifully. So uh very excited about that. Now let's go back to the kids' catechism a little bit. Uh we are sold out online, so I I believe it's uh that's correct. If you go online, uh you're not gonna be able to order and get something sent to you presently, right? So the first printing is so uh I think the only way you're gonna get it right now is if you come to the Healthy Church conference in August and we're gonna have we have our remaining hard copies there, right? Uh so the last hundred or so copies will probably be sold there.
SPEAKER_03So I did post something on Facebook on the Holy Joyce Facebook page that if there's anyone who wants a copy of the Kids Catechism and um you know they go to order it online and they can't, to send an email to contact at holyjoys.org, give us your name, your information, and we'll let you know when we can get a copy mailed to you. Um we'll see if we have any left over after the Healthy Church conference. We may be able to send if y'all I have received quite a few emails about that. Good, good. So somebody could do that. I don't we're just gonna need to see if there's enough interest to do a second printing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, good. Well, there's been incredible interest uh so far. Uh we have uh you know distributed those, I think, very quickly. Uh remember it's been less than a year, right? I mean it's only been what about uh eight months or less, maybe less than eight months actually. Uh it was the beginning of this year when we started distributing. So uh they've gone very quickly. Uh we do intend to have another printing. And um we uh so I will be uh handing out uh a catechism to every family in our church with a child eight or younger on Kids' Day on August 6th. Uh it's our Kids' Day. We have a big uh event there. Well, that day every family with a child eight years old or younger gets a gift, and the gift this year is is the kids' catechism. So very excited about passing those out. And uh and then of course the Healthy Church Conference on August 24, 25, 26. This is sponsored by and planned by uh Holy Joyce, and it's held right here in Frankfurt, Indiana. And uh there's no registration uh at this stage. I think we will next year for sure, uh, because I think it is grow outgrowing uh our our church building. So uh we are likely to uh perhaps move to a larger building here locally. Uh looking forward to that. We'll have more updates on that. Um anything else about the kids catechism that you want to mention? Uh we have uh we have possibility of it being translated. Uh I think the Spanish translation, uh Brother Steve Height has helped us with that. And uh where is that? Where's that stand? Is that finished?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so we we've had several people ask about um having the catechism in other languages, and uh then recently uh an opportunity uh that would secure wide distribution. So we are exploring that right now. We're definitely going to make the catechism available in Spanish. The translation is basically done. Um I there's a few you know minor uh issues that we still need to address, but that should be available soon. And I'll at least put it online on the website, and then after that, we'll have a print edition in time. Um, and then beyond that, you know, other other languages that we're looking at. So yeah, we'll get more information on that as we move forward, but we're definitely exploring it.
SPEAKER_01Good, good. Uh anything else about Holy Joys as an organization that you want to update our listeners on?
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, we're back. That's the main thing that I want to say. Um, I've had a lot of people, and it means a lot, you know, people reaching out and just saying, hey, we missed the podcast. You know, are you guys done? Like what's going on? You know, um, so we are back. Um and I'll I'll share here in a minute a little bit about some of the things just big picture that we've been going through as a family and church that have kept me away. But I have like three articles in the pipeline. We're gonna start getting articles back up. I don't know how frequently, but hopefully about once a week again, maybe twice a week as we go as we grow. And then we're gonna try to do a weekly podcast again. Um, so can't promise every week, but we're gonna shoot for that. I aim for that even through shorter episodes. Um so yeah, just just glad to be back.
SPEAKER_01Good. I am too. I am too. Do you recall those days when we actually had what, eight, ten weeks ahead? We were eight or ten weeks ahead. Do you remember those days? Yeah, no. There was a time, it was uh well over a year ago, about two years ago. Uh we actually, you know, we could take a week off because we already had you know at least eight episodes in the pipeline. So uh we used all those up in the last uh long while. Uh but we look forward to getting those uh back out there again. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about what's happened over the last uh six months or so in our own personal lives. Um uh obviously we're we're both pastors. Uh you've had a little bit of transition, we'll talk about that in a minute. Uh as far as what I have uh had this year, uh no major changes, just continuing the ministries that I'm a part of, uh school administrator, senior pastor, executive director for uh a growing uh recovery uh ministry, and uh you know, just other things uh as well. So those are all uh growing and uh very exciting things on all of those. I won't give you a full rundown of what's happening in each of those ministries, but uh very, very excited about that, uh all of those things that God is doing for us here uh in Frankfurt. And uh then of course uh continue to be involved with Holy Joys. We just had uh another board meeting today, uh very exciting, uh some things that we hopefully soon will be able to share. Uh but uh we're very, very excited about what um our our chairman Mike Avery, our other board members, Mark Sankey, David Bub, Travis Johnson, and of course us, uh what uh we've been discussing and sharing. Uh we always have a good time together. Uh we look forward to having everyone together, uh, Lord willing, uh, here in about a month for the Healthy Church Conference. That's the next big thing uh that's coming up. So we're we're already getting ready for that, getting geared up. Um let me go ahead and mention uh in regard to the Healthy Church Conference, uh so our speakers are uh Dr. Phil Brown. Uh he's back uh again. And uh David Hartkoff and his wife Jessica Hartkoff will be here speaking as well. Uh Travis Johnson will be leading the uh morning uh times of worship. That that's just uh one of the most beautiful uh times uh together. Uh he does a great job, so really look forward to that. Um and then I I put myself in the schedule sort of as a placeholder. Um you know, we have some flexibility with that. Uh there's a lot of conversation that happens, and so uh if I don't ever get to speak, we just use that time to kind of uh continue with Q ⁇ A or uh whatever happens with that. And then uh we're we're all wrapped up on Saturday by noon. Uh I want to make sure that people have time to get home uh as much as possible. Uh get home. I it I intentionally do not try to keep people here uh through Sunday. I don't like conferences that keep people away from their home church on Sundays and don't do not like that at all. Uh so uh but definitely encouraging people to try to come if you're within driving distance or if you can uh hop on a plane and get here and back home by by Sunday. Uh please do come and join us. There's no registration, uh it's free will offering. Uh there are places for you to stay if someone needs to contact me. Uh we do have the campgrounds here. Uh I think that's uh $30 a night for a room there, so it's very, very affordable. Uh please, please reach out to me. So tell us tell us about uh what's going on in your life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh well before I do that, I'm looking forward to the healthy church conference, and I might be coming out a day or two early if I can connect with Larry Smith because uh Larry Smith had agreed he has a baptismal that he said I could have, and I wanted to get that before I baptized my second son. Um but I might be trying to get down there to Cincinnati and and uh connect with him, but yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind. It's been a whirlwind for us. Um kind of just this big picture right now. Back in January of 2022, um I was asked to come past our church and um initially just said no up front wasn't a good fit for me because of the denomination uh that it that it's affiliated with. And I was informed by the board that the church was on their way out of the denomination. They had the deed, they were going through the process. I mean, they just wanted me to come lead them out. And so under those circumstances, I agreed to come. Um, my grandfather pastored there back in the 60s and 70s, my great uncle pastored there. I have some family history. It seemed like a good fit. And as things went well, we were starting to grow. I mean, the church had been just basically, basically dying. I mean, it was the attendance was was pretty low. And just um, you know, month by month, people were starting to fizzle out, uh, lost almost all their young families, and we were finally starting to grow, make progress. We had plans for a transition. Um, but when the annual business meeting rolled around, this um, I guess it was end of April. Yeah, it was the 26th. Um, because of the small membership, and because a three-fourths majority was needed to leave, a fairly small group of people were able to prevent that transition. And it just really sent our church into a spiral because um the overwhelming majority um wanted to leave the denomination, was very excited for the future plans, and basically everybody told me within a week, you know, we've been hanging in here for four years without a steady pastor. You know, we we've just been hoping for something like this, you know, a future for the church, and we were behind you, and we just can't see ourselves staying here anymore. We're gonna be looking for another church. And um, I felt like I needed to step away because I didn't want to be involved in any kind of church split. I didn't want to leave a church split, I didn't want to be accused of that. And so I um just stepped away and um explained that hey, I was very clear from the beginning that I can't pastor here under this denomination. It would be two years before we could even, under the bylaws, possibly, you know, leave the denomination again. And I just I can't do that. I at this stage of my life, it just doesn't make any sense. And I felt like under that denomination, There were a lot of structural issues that were holding us back from being a healthy church growing in the future. So anyway, I stepped away. And what happened was the elders, several of the elders, the um all but one, um got together and said, hey, we need to hold a meeting to give people an opportunity to talk about what they're feeling and what their plans are for the future. And they met. I was not a part of that, I did not attend that. Um, but they um came to a consensus, overwhelming consensus, that they uh were not gonna be able to stay there under that denomination, but they also didn't want to just scatter. They wanted to stay together as a body. And so they said, you know, what if we just move to a new facility? And, you know, the few people that want to stay with the denomination, you know, they have to make that decision, what they want to do. But what if we just met at a new location and asked Pastor Jonathan if he'd be willing to resume as our pastor? Um, and they unanimously voted to do that. Um, at that point, um, they reached out to me. And, you know, I mean, I'm not gonna leave my flock without a pastor. Um, they're the people that I pastored for a year and a half, and it was very painful, very difficult thing to go through. Um, we obviously had to move. We were living in the parsonage. Um, so you mentioned earlier about having two little boys. What made this extra hard is that my wife, Lexi, had been on maternity leave. And we, so it was her last week of maternity leave was supposed to be our family vacation. So all of this happens right then. So we have to cancel family vacation, pack to leave, no family vacation, which we desperately needed. Um, and now I'm trying to move our family, help, you know, get this church through this crazy time, um, and then start watching not only Adam through the week, but now a new baby. And so it was just like, it was wild. Um, but we're here. We moved, we're settling in. I just unpacked my my books yesterday and got them on bookshelves uh for the first time since the move. And it's it's been a challenge, but God is really helping us. And I don't just throw that around um lightly, but it's we've been feeling, I feel like we've been feeling the help of the Lord here in the last couple of weeks. Um Sunday, we had about 50 people. We packed out, we've been meeting at a meeting room in a firehouse, and we just packed it out. Uh, there wasn't a lot of room. And um 50 people is more than what we had most Sundays at the previous church, even with those who chose to stay behind. So attendance has been good, getting some new people in. Um, I think most significant for me has been that our Wednesday nights have become a real means of grace for me. Our small group has taken on a new character. We've been uh our chairs, instead of sitting at tables, we've been circle doing a circle of chairs, um, more participation, more confessing needs in the prayer time. I've really stressed, you know, let's start by going around and sharing how we can pray for you personally and your spiritual needs, especially. And we've had some people who have been pretty open and just raw about their feelings and emotions. And um, you know, when people start to do that for the first time and people aren't used to that, you know, as a pastor, I'm kind of watching to see how people respond. Very affirming, very appreciative. Um, people starting to feel like they can open up more. And I just feel like um in the long term, even though we've been through a lot and it was a very painful thing to go through, I think God is going to use this to help us to grow um, not just numerically but spiritually. So I am um cautiously optimistic about the future, um, just trying to build relationships and stay close with people through this time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, God bless you for uh just hanging in there. And I know there for a while uh you know there was a you know sudden shift where you know were you know moving on to somewhere else, you know, you backed out. But then the church itself, right? I mean the congregation, the the leaders that stepped up. Um they made they made that happen, right? And then before long, you know, they were reaching out to you. You had no idea or even vision of that happening, of that coming out of this, right? And so I was like close to it.
SPEAKER_03At first, I was like, look, and that's the way I I it's not healthy, and it's it's something that this brought to light even more. But you know, I was um I went through some pretty traumatic stuff in in high school, and the way I dealt with it was just by like suppressing my emotions and just like moving on. And so when this all happened, I just like shut down, I'm like, okay, on to the next thing, and then it just all came, you know, came piling uh back. All my emotions came flooding in, you know, like a week or two later, and I started feeling the hurt and the anger and all that goes along with it. But um, yeah, initially I was like, this is it, it's done. I mean, I don't even have a thought that there was any future here. And no, I really, I really admire um the elders who stepped up and pulled the flock together, gave them an opportunity to you know voice their feelings and to stay together as a body. They they had an opportunity to act as real pastors. Yeah, and that's something that I had been stressing for a year and a half. And every elder is a pastor, a real pastor. And and I've even started I even started calling our elders, you know, pastor so-and-so, pastor today. And I feel like they really stepped up and demonstrated that that pastoral capacity. So it was it was encouraging for me in a in a strange way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that that is, and that's a tremendous testimony of the the blessing of having an elder-led church, having multiple elders, you know, pastors, people who are probably volunteer, they're probably not paid by the congregation, or they're not full-time in the sense of as you know, you and I are in in our role as pastor, and yet they are carrying much of the weight of the pastoral ministry. There's there's more weightiness to being a pastor than just what we do, right? It's not just what we do, but it's the weight of what has to be done, and having someone there uh to help carry that weight is tremendous. And in that case, uh you know, those elders carried uh they carried all the weight through that, and uh the congregation that has come together uh seems to be flourishing uh because of that. So God bless uh you guys as you continue to to labor there. And did you say you're in a firehouse?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we are there are not a lot. We're so we're a uh little country church, there are not a lot of facilities around, and there is a I guess that they call it the fire hall, and that's one location, but they have events on Sundays, and so we would have been you know bouncing around. This is actually the fire station. I mean, it's like our room and then a little hallway, and then there's the fire trucks. Um, but it's any alarms any alarms going off during church or not during service, not yet. Um right at right around the time of service, but we could happen, yeah. Yeah, so one time there was a massive um forest fire, which I don't think has happened anything like this in years and years and years. But we live near Shade Mountain, and there's this massive forest fire. They had departments from all over the place coming in. And so our room was just filled with gear, fire gear, and we got a call like the the Saturday before I was supposed to come back for my first Sunday. Uh actually, so I took a couple weeks off. I said, I need a couple weeks, and um, one of the other elders preached and helped lead the church at that time. Um, but anyway, so like last minute we had to find another location to meet. Now, since then, everything has been great. Uh, they've they've been very flexible. They let us keep our stuff there, like our communion table and our little pulpit and banner stands and book racks and like pimples. I mean, they just let us keep it all stored there. They've been great. And it's a small fire station, it's one of the smaller ones in the area in some ways. And so they're just grateful, I think, for the revenue. We, you know, we've been keeping it up. We bought a new air conditioner and just donated it to the firehouse and stuff. So I think they've been appreciating it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's exciting. And you're packing it out, it sounds like that's great.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'll tell you one more thing. It's funny. Uh, there's actually a guy who lives upstairs uh at the firehouse, and he came down one Sunday and he was talking to me up a storm and and he's like, Yeah, he's like, uh um, one of the guys over here at the firehouse was like, What is that screaming? And he's like, That preacher, he really gets into it when he preaches. And I said, Oh man, I'm so sorry. Am I bothering you guys? He's like, Oh no, it's no problem. He's like, I just go grocery shopping while you're preaching. So I'm hoping that uh they hear the gospel, maybe they'll end up lending us one of these weeks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great. Well, that's just a little window uh into what is happening, uh, has been happening in our lives uh there. And uh we we look forward to collecting our listenership uh back uh together each week. And uh our our intent even before the end of this day is to uh actually record our next episode. Uh so uh we intend to put this back into our regular schedule. Um Wednesday afternoons is our typical time for uh for recording, and um that's on our schedule again, and we look forward to getting back. We have a lot of topics. There are a lot of things that we actually have discussed uh to some measure uh in these last several months. So uh there's no shortage of issues to talk about, and uh, but we'll get to those one at a time. So uh thanks to our listenership for coming back and and uh enduring, and uh we look forward to hearing uh from you all soon.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys Podcast. Email your questions to podcast at holyjoys.org, and they may be featured on a future episode. Our labors for a holy happy church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
