Holy Joys Podcast
A discussion of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church. A ministry of holyjoys.org.
Holy Joys Podcast
10 Books Every Pastor Should Have in Their Library
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Visit holyjoys.org/books-pastor-library to see David and Johnathan's lists.
This is my list. This is your list. Everyone's gonna have probably a slightly different list, but it's interesting we have, of course, several the same. We had two or three or four overlapping, so that says something, I think.
SPEAKER_01I'm thinking here about books that I would refer to often, books that I wouldn't want to be without.
SPEAKER_00You're listening to the Holy Joys Podcast, co-hosted by Jonathan Arnold and Dr. David Fry. Visit us at holyjoys.org and stay tuned for weekly discussions of theology and ministry practice, all for a holy, happy church.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Holy Joys Podcast. We are back together to talk a little bit about our pastoral libraries. Uh last week, Dr. Fry had the idea to share a list of 10 books, and we haven't we haven't completely settled on what those 10 books are. Something along the lines of 10 books that every pastor should have in their library. I'm thinking here about books that I would refer to often, uh, books that I wouldn't want to be without. Uh I might even go as far as to say if I could only have 10 books in my library, um, I might tweak this list a little bit, but getting pretty close to my top 10 here as a pastor, uh, books that I would want in my pastoral library. So, how how are you thinking about your list before we share those?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think yeah, I think there are similarities there. Although I would have to say that these are not the 10 books I have on my all-time favorite top 100 list, which I keep that list. I've had that list for years. It changes occasionally. But uh in that list, the top 10 books I'm very familiar with. I've read them multiple times. And uh yeah, and the and they tend to be older books. This one specifically, as we have been talking about, 10 books every pastor should have. So this one is more pastoral. This list is more pastoral than my you know top 100 books, uh, you know, the top 10 of those. Um, so there uh there's some overlap for sure, but I definitely have a different list here than I do in that. So for me, I the first thing I assume is okay, this is a list for pastors, people who are in ministry. And so I'm thinking, okay, what are the books I find most important for my pastoral ministry? And so that's kind of the perspective I'm coming from. Uh, these are 10 of the most formative books for my pastoral ministry. Uh, so there's gonna be at least I think I uh yeah, I have at least one honorable mention here. I didn't make the top 10 that uh uh I'm pretty sure you don't have uh because it's such a useful resource for teaching and preaching. And uh now I don't have any anything on my list uh like you know um ministry handbook, you know, that sort of thing that gives you all the different aspects of a pastor's life. Um I thought about that, but that just didn't make the cut. Um there are some here that could be understood as uh really are perhaps focused on discipleship. Um, some that are more exegetical, of course, a lot of theological material here. Um, but nothing from sort of the administrative aspect of pastoral ministry uh made it to this list. But these are all books I would actually use in real life. I actually use these with some regularity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we have not shared our lists uh yet. So we're gonna go uh from starting with number 10, working our way up to number one. I don't know that mine are really ordered um in in order of importance, but kind of generally I did uh go from most important to least important. So why don't we are? Okay.
SPEAKER_02I think I think yeah, I think I'm pretty comfortable with saying based on usefulness, like what I actually use, I think I'm pretty comfortable saying from you know one to ten, like the my number one is the one that I I use the most frequently, and and the second would be probably the second most frequently. Uh second number two and number three are gonna be close. But these are uh let me make make this caveat too before you dive into yours. Okay, sure. Um I assume this is true for both of us, but this is not a list of you know suggestions of what pastors should should start out with. If you have zero books in your library except for the Bible, um, you know, these are the first 10 books you should go out and purchase, not necessarily that. So these are um these are this is really saying more about me than what I am saying, you know, every other person out there you know who is just starting out in ministry, these are the first 10 books that you should get. But these are books that you should have sometime in your pastoral ministry earlier in your pastoral ministry rather than later. Uh, you're not gonna want to go a long time without without these. And this is from a Wesleyan Methodist perspective. Uh that's that's where both of us are coming from. So you're gonna see that. That's gonna come through, at least on my list, it's gonna come through. Um, but I also want to say that because I do have some that are not from a Wesleyan Methodist perspective. And so our listeners are gonna say, oh, that's odd. Why is that one on there? And I'll explain when we get to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I think that's really helpful. We should probably do another episode or another list, 10 books that every pastor should start out with. Um, that would definitely change my list as well. So let's start at number 10. Uh, I'll share my number 10, and well, you can start. You go ahead, you share your number 10, and then I'll share my number 10. We'll just we'll work up from there.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, I will uh start out actually with an honorable mention. I have three honorable mentions. There could be, you know, a hundred, of course, but these are three that started out in my top 10 and then got bumped as I continue to reflect. Uh, so let me just go ahead and share one. And this is the one that uh I just uh mentioned is helpful for like background stuff for preaching, teaching. And it's Evert Ferguson's uh Backgrounds of Early Christianity, and it's on its third edition um and is just a gold mine of information that is gives the background for New Testament church and the early church. Uh it's just such a rich um yeah, just such a rich uh book for information. I find myself going back to it um over and over and over again. And it's it is I actually would recommend it over N.T. Wright and Michael Byrd's um book, uh the uh New Testament and Its World, which is I highly recommend. Uh, but I would recommend Ferguson over that one. Okay. So with that honorable mention, let me go to number 10. And uh that is uh the The Apostolic Fathers by Michael Holmes. And let me pull it off the shelf here for just a second. Uh this is one that I got uh probably about uh 10 years ago. It literally is the the texts of the uh early letters, the apostolic fathers, uh, their letters, and so it reads a lot like you're reading the New Testament because the language is so similar, you know, same era, right? It's your you know early second century and then on into the uh early third century. Uh but I find this helpful because of the scope in which these uh this particular volume edited by Michael Holmes, uh, which it's also this is the third edition. Uh, we're gonna try to mention the edition that we um are recommending as well. This is the third edition uh published by Baker. Uh just the scope of thought and uh the the date, the early date of this, uh helps me to grasp how the church was developing uh its thinking around so many different different issues. So I go back to this quite often.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that did not make it on my list, but I did think about Rick Brann's new translation uh Lexin Press put out and considered putting putting that on. So I have not actually don't have that edition, but that um I know new edition is really readable. So for those who've never read the Apostolic Fathers, that is a great edition to check out.
SPEAKER_02Um I need to mention about this book. Uh one of the things I like about this book is it has the Greek, the original Greek, on on one side and the English on the other. So this is a an interlinear, and so that makes it really useful. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So for my number 10, I have Gregory the Great's Pastoral Rule. And I included that. I think I'm actually going to include it in an elder's course of study as one of only a few books that uh I would like to have every elder read. It's probably the most important pastoral treatise of the patristic era, but it is so um convict. It's the kind of book that uh I should be reading every year. Um it's uh really probes your motives as a pastor, your character, why are you in this office, how are you conducting yourself? Uh it's a it's really a book of pastoral holiness. Um, so really strong emphasis on uh fleshing out the character of an elder, like from 1 Timothy 3. And it's also a masterclass of biblical interpretation. So the way that he interprets the Old Testament, like the moral or tropological interpretation of like the temple and the priest's garments, is just it's incredible. And so um, for a pastor, I think really models how to expound the moral sense of scripture.
SPEAKER_02Very good, very good. Uh, do you have an honorable mention you want to throw out?
SPEAKER_01You know what? I I kind of weaved my honorable mentions into my other one, so I think I'm good. Oh, you know what? Actually, there's one I did include, and that's Cranmer's Book of Homilies. And I did not include that because I have not spent uh time with it. I've not, it's not been a book that I've really uh relied on or used, but it's something that I I know I should be and that I want to be. And as I go deeper into the Anglican roots of the westling tradition, I I fully anticipate it will become a cornerstone of my library. I mean, it's in the articles of religion, right? There's an entire article in the 39 articles that just lists the titles. So um, yeah. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, good thought. I I know there are gonna be books in here that you're gonna mention that I'm like, oh man, I didn't didn't think about that one. Um, but that would definitely be uh on at least my honorable mention as well. Okay, let's go to my number nine. Mind number nine is um, it's not the first time you're gonna see this author uh on my list, but uh it is John Wesley's Plain Account of Christian Perfection. It is a small work that is widely available, it's available online. Uh, there's a lot of different editions. Uh the one I've I I have several myself. Uh this little one here is a Beacon Hill Press, uh the um publication for uh Church of Nazarene. And uh this is one that a lot of pastors have. Uh it's an expensive paperback copy. But this is my number nine because uh not just because I'm a Wesleyan Arminian, but this truly is a Christian classic uh among uh you know in in the tristian Christian tradition, not just for Methodists, uh, but especially for those of us who are Wesleyan Methodists. Like, don't call yourself a Wesleyan Methodist unless you've read this book. Like it's that it's that important. Like you've got to be familiar with this book. I've read it over and over and over and over, and there's still stuff in it that I want to grasp. It's not terribly difficult to understand, but there are depths to it that require multiple readings. Um, the layout uh is I I think pretty apparent, but uh the layout of the book, of course, is uh John Wesley answering some of the toughest questions regarding what he calls Christian perfection, um, you know, the doctrine of Christian holiness. And uh, but he he uh lays the book out in chronological order to how he has answered some of these questions. So uh his earliest answers are appear first and goes to his his later questions. So there's both a thematic and a chronological order in the book. And uh what he will say is uh he uses the chronology mainly to show that he has not changed his views on the major points, and and that's important because he did change his views on some things. Where he does change his views, he will note it. Like he will say, I used to think this and now I don't. So uh it's all really, really uh good. And honestly, there are so many miss uh misconceptions of Wesleyan theology that I highly recommend, especially pastor theologians, read John Wesley here, and you're gonna you're gonna say, wait a second, that's not what I hear as that passes as Wesleyan today. Uh, you mean John Wesley didn't think that? You gotta read this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, I don't think I mentioned this, but quickly, when we publish this podcast, we can include our lists in the show notes with hyperlinks to the editions that we're using. Um, I don't think I mentioned that for Gregory's Pastoral Rule, uh SVS Press, the popular patristic series, uh, there's an addition, new edition of that. And I think I have read out of the um oh, the one that's on New Advent. I can't think right now who edit that. Slipping my mind. Yeah, the big collection that you get for like $2 on Kindle. Uh but anyway, um and then there's also what's that? Or free online. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then that um you just mentioned that edition of Plain Account. There's also Randy Maddox and Paul, I don't know how I don't know how to pronounce his name, Chilcoat. Um I think it's through SeedBed, their Wesley collection. They have a new edition with notes, annotated edition. Oh, okay. That's worth checking out too. That's the one I have on the book rack at our church. So my number nine, uh, okay, I put a Wesleyan hymnal. I originally had a collection of hymns for the use of the people called Methodists, the 1780 Wesley's hymnal. Uh, but I just changed that to a Wesleyan hymnal because honestly, if I could only choose one hymnal to have in my library, I probably would choose one that's uh a more contemporary hymnal that has a lot of the Wesley stuff in it. So we started using the new Seedbed Hymnal, our Great Redeemer's Praise, and it just has a lot of Charles Wesley hymns, including some of his older ones. Um so yeah, that's my that's my number nine for a few reasons. One is just personal devotional resource, um, obviously for our church, pastoral resource. Um, and I wanted to note here that Randall McIwain wrote an article, A Pilgrim's Progress, the Wesley Hymn Book as a manual for spiritual growth. And that is published on uh Holy Joys. Uh so a Wesleyan hymnal. Also, here's an honorable mention. Um, I would not want to be without a metrical psalter. And the only reason I didn't include include that as a separate point uh on my list is that the Seedbed hymnal, our Great Redeemer's Praise, actually has a an abbreviated Psalter in the hymnal, which is really cool. Uh, it's the one by Julian Timothy Tennant that Seedbed also published. So a Wesleyan hymn book wouldn't want to be without a metrical Psalter, though, as well.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02So we'll may have some little bit overlap there. Mine number eight is one that actually ranks higher in my all-time favorite list than what it does on this list. And uh it is uh it is The Imitation of Christ by Thomas Akimpus. And uh I had to have something on this list that represents that um you know rule of life, you know, imitatio, discipleship, tradition. And of course, I I thought of several, you know, ideas. Uh a lot of people would be familiar with Dietrich Bonhoeffer's The Cost of Discipleship. Well, if you like the cost of discipleship, read um the first edition, which is Thomas Aquinas's or sorry, uh Thomas Akimpus, The Imitation of Christ, right? So Bonhoeffer is is is just borrowing heavily from Thomas Akimpus and going beyond him, but uh really is in that same tradition. So Thomas Akimpus, and this book is in some ways, yeah, it's not the earliest rule of life at all, but uh it is, I think, probably the best example. Well, that is, I do think it's the best example, and it's accessible uh as well, and so you don't have to have a lot of special knowledge to just glean a lot of riches from it. Uh so that's that's a it's known as you know, the kind of the genre is a rule of life, uh, the imitation of Christ, Thomas Akimpus. And there are a lot of editions, so um, I'm sure there are probably certain translations that are better than others. I don't I'm not a Thomas Akempis scholar, so I can't say exactly which one's the best. If there's a listener that knows that there's a particular edition that's better, I have multiple editions of it. And um, and it's certainly one of the top classics. And by the way, in my all-time favorites list, like it's this is in the top five, uh for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's an awesome book. Every time I hear that, like the first thing that comes to mind is there's this one line that's like burned into my mind, and I can't quote it exactly, but the idea is what is the benefit of knowing a lot about the Trinity if you displease the Trinity by a lack of humility? That just I've never gotten away from that. So yeah, I think Gregory's pastoral rule kind of fills that that slot on my list. So for number eight, I have Thomas Odin's Classic Christianity. And that barely made the cut, but it ended up bumping out some other books. And the main reason why I included it is that of all of the systematic theologies, and arguably it's not a it's not an extremely systematic, systematic theology, but it is an orderly account of Christian beliefs. Um, of all the books, it's the most accessible. And so I find it really helpful, just about any doctrine under the sun. Uh, you look it up in Odin's Classic Christianity, and you will find a plain language explanation of that doctrine with summaries of patristic and reformed uh theologians on that issue. And it's just because of the scope, uh, I decided to include it. Um, it's also really helpful for um, I think this is gonna be the systematic that I use for elder training going forward. I'm hoping to get more elder training going. And for that purpose, it's very accessible in the local church. And I love Odin, so Odin's classic Christianity is my number eight.
SPEAKER_02Very good. All right. Uh, we might see that one again. Um my number seven is uh actually a textbook from a class that I just taught. And it is uh this large volume, and and this is a unique book as well. So let me introduce it this way. Um I used to really despise readers because I always wanted to read everything in context, which I still do, right? That's important. Uh but a good reader will give you sufficient context. And uh so a reader is a book, a collection of works that have been abridged, you know, selections uh from larger works, and all of the selections in a reader, you know, are centered around a theme, or maybe it's a reader from a person. Uh, you know, so there are readers on Augustine, there are readers on Thomas Aquine. It's like the best of or the most important of their works, right? Well, this one is it's actually called a source book in Christian Political Thought from Irenaeus to Grotius, and it's by the O'Donovins, Oliver O'Donovan, one of my favorite political um theologians, and his wife, who's also a theologian, uh Oliver and Joan O'Donovan, and uh they wrote this book, A Source Book in Christian Political Thought. And uh yeah, I use it uh I I in in my class on the historical theology of church and state, and uh uh it is if you have any interest on how Christians have thought in the past about the church's relationship to the state or the believers' relationship to broader culture, like this is the single most important book, in my opinion. It's just so, so rich. And it contains also, of course, a lot of these are exegetical in the sense of you know, Irenaeus or other apologists are dealing with key scriptures from the New Testament, right? And they're applying them. And they're saying, hey, this is how we apply these scriptures as believers living then in a Roman world. Uh so uh fantastic source. It's the only reader in on my list. Uh I wanted to include a reader uh if I could, and this one qualified definitely met the I think the criteria for making this list. So that comes in at number seven for me. It's a 1999. Uh there's only one edition so far. It wouldn't surprise me if uh other editions come out.
SPEAKER_01I only got a glimpse of it there on the video, but if it's as thick as it looks, it could also dub as a for you know lifting weights. Looks huge.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's 800 and 840 pages. Oh, it's not so it's it's smaller than uh Augustine's City of God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_01Uh what did you say? Number, where are we at? Number seven.
SPEAKER_02That was my number seven. Okay. What's your number seven?
SPEAKER_01My number seven is. I'm cheating here. I have an or. It's either collected homilies of John Chrysostom or collected orations of Gregory of Nausyanzis. I struggle with this because I refer to John Chrysostom's sermons uh all the time. Anytime if Chrysostom preached on my passage, I'm often looking for what he had to say because he is golden mouth. You know, he's probably arguably one of the greatest preachers to ever live. Um, but I'm torn because I can't imagine not having Gregory. He's my man. You know, I really he's a favorite. And I love his theological poetry. His preaching is beautiful. Um, his festal orations are beautiful, his five theological orations. So I wanted to have somewhere on my list here a collection of patristic sermons. And so for me, that's either going to be Chrysdom or or Nauseanzis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So I have not read as much of Chrysostom, so um I want to, and I I'm trying to read more sermons, especially early sermons, and I have I have you know a collection of those, so I need to work through those. But I actually I think I think I mentioned uh we want to do a list on on our favorite sermons from Christian history as well. So I'll have to do some more reading before we do that list because I know there's a lot of a lot of good good stuff there on Chrysostom. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Pun of his sermons you can get on newadvent.org as well for free. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, before I mention my number six, uh, since my number seven was a uh like a reader source book, let me mention another uh source book, and that is uh Peter Creef's uh Summa of the Summa. And uh I have it here somewhere. Here it is. Uh his Summa of the Summa by Ignatius Press. Uh it again is a reader as well, but it is a summation, that's what Summa is, a summation of Thomas Aquinas's massive uh Summa Theologica. And these are what are in in his estimation uh the most important informative portions of that. I would definitely recommend. Uh in fact, there's he actually has a uh another book that I have on my list, or not my list, but on my shelf up there. Uh this one is 532 pages, so it's still a bit daunting. But he has one that's called a shorter suma of the Summa, and it's it's like a hundred, you know, maybe 150 pages. And so if anyone wants to become kind of explore Thomas Aquinas, uh, which if you're going to be a serious Christian theologian, you're gonna encounter Tom Thomas Aquinas. You gotta know something about him. Uh, I would recommend that the shorter Summa, uh by also by Peter Krieft. Um you just just take a look at that. But uh if you can, this is this is uh a great selection of Thomas Aquinas'. So that that's just a uh honorable mention there. Uh number six from me is one that you've already mentioned, and that is uh Thomas Odin's um the one you mentioned is his single volume. Uh all three the volumes of his Sysmatic Theology, which were were published between 1987 and 1992, originally in three volumes, are now available in a single volume, uh, which is called Classic Christianity. So that's my number six. Um it's uh I I think that's our first overlap, is that right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's our first overlap. So it comes on uh in on a number six. Now I have the three volume here. Uh that we're counting here, because the next three on my list, including this one, uh, are all multi-volumes, but they're all one work. So they count as one, you know, they're taking one position here. Uh, but this is the first one. Again, this is I have the three volumes, but you mentioned the the single volume uh that works.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so before I share mine, let me just make a quick comment about the Summa. Um I read that uh shorter Suma of the Summa, and I struggle with it. I'll be honest, I did, even with the notes. And then I read it's in like the back or maybe the introduction where it says that um Creef's purpose was to select the philosophical portions of Aquinas. And I set out to read Aquinas, wanting to read especially the theological portions. So then, I don't know if this helps anyone, uh, Matthew Barrett um posted, I know you you love Matthew Barrett, Matthew Barrett posted a list uh of Aquinas' works and said that if you're starting out, he recommends Aquinas' lesser-known compendium of theology, which is actually in paragraph form instead of the you know, the way he approaches the you know his work. And it is intended to be a shorter theological summary for new, like basically entry-level ministers or theological students. So I don't know if you've come across that, but that was really helpful for me for starting to dip into Aquinas. Have you ever come across that?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't I don't have that, but yeah, I'm yeah, any anything that's a summary of Aquinas.
SPEAKER_01I wish I was smarter. I need I need to get some help. I need to I need to take a drag class on Aquinas. I just, you know, I and I got the gist of it, but I mean it was very slow reading, and I just there's some parts I just really tedious. I I know that in the introduction of that book as well, he says, you know, to read uh Aquinas well, you've got to be familiar with the basics of Aristotle's thoughts. So then I bought I bought a book that was a primer on Aristotle, and I think that's probably where a lot of my weakness lies. So, okay. Um, my number six is don't crucify me. Uh no, I know you won't, but John Calvin's commentary on scripture. So I'm gonna get this in here right away. Jacob Arminius said that Calvin's commentary was the best since the fathers. And I have found that Calvin's commentary is massive in its scope, um, surprisingly warm, beautiful, and pastoral. Calvin is not the cold, harsh um, you know, guy who's obsessed with determinism that most people make him out to be. If you really read much Calvin, you find that he speaks constantly of the love and mercy of God in Christ. Yes, we obviously have some significant differences. Um, but if I could only have one commentary outside of Wesley's notes, uh, or a Wesling commentary, uh, besides the Fathers, it would be Calvin's commentary.
SPEAKER_02And those are available for free online as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Biblehub.com. You can read his notes on there.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Okay. Uh interesting because I do not have any commentaries on my list. Um, but my number five is also by John Calvin. That's interesting. All right. Uh, but it's not his commentaries, it's his uh institutes, uh his uh systemic theology, institutes of Christian religion. And uh yes, this is where you get into some of the uh some of the issues where Arminians and you know Calvinists today have strong disagreements, but it is uh it is still one of the most uh well certainly one of the most influential systematic theologies ever written, uh especially in in America, but um it is still very formative even for Wesleyan Arminian thought. So we have to remember, I gotta remind people, if you identify as Wesleyan Arminian, remember Arminius understood himself to be a Calvinist. Okay, now we don't call ourselves today Calvinists, he understood himself staunchly reformed. His differences, he he thought he was interpreting Calvin better than Theodore Beza was interpreting Calvin. Um he may or may not have been doing that, all right? Um but uh he uh uh Calvin is still very formative and extremely helpful on most of what we believe, even as Wesley and Arminians. And you wouldn't you wouldn't know that if you have not read Wesley or if you have not read Arminius. And so the today, if you are um if you again identify as Wesley Arminian, you gotta read Wesley, and you should be reading Arminius. Now, uh disclosure here, I don't have Arminius's anything by Arminius on this list. I was gonna put it on there, but he's not easy to understand. And uh it's it's one of the reasons I don't have Thomas Aquinas on this list either. Um, because there's just there's so much there, and uh you gotta wade through so many volumes to glean out the richness. So uh but Arminius you know should be something someone that pastors are reading. Uh but uh John Calvin, his institutes, it is pretty accessible. And uh use the McNeil edition. Uh the McNeil edition is the one that it's a two-volume uh edition of the Institutes of Christian Religion. Uh that's the one you should look for.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so his commentaries bumped the institutes off my list, and that is mostly because I don't refer to the Institutes uh very much. I do refer to his commentary, but definitely um definitely valuable. I think Travis Johnson read through the the entire uh institutes in one year, so he might have a one-year Bible reading. Or yeah, Bible reading. Oh no, that's a bad error. I gotta edit. You're gonna have to edit the case. Calvin has said amen. All the Wesleans just crucified me. I called Calvin's Institutes the Bible. All right, moving on. My number five is Wesley's Standard Sermons. Um I wrestle with um whether or not to include plain account. I I did it ultimately, because a lot of the content of plain account can be found in his sermons, the the points of plain account. I know I'm I'm gonna be missing a lot there, but um ultimately didn't make the cut. So for me, Wesley standard sermons, and I have on here for the edition the one that Colin, Kenneth Collins, and Jason Vickers edited because it has uh the 44 that Wesley approved, the eight from the North American collection, so that totals 52, and then eight more that they selected to address contemporary needs. So that's 60 sermons in total. And the uh text of that is from the uh bicentennial edition. And then for honorable mention here, I have um Wesley's Notes on the New Testament. I think I can safely say that I consult Wesley's Notes on the New Testament, uh, well, on the Bible, um, but right, I've been preaching through the New Testament for a while, so I'm saying New Testament. Almost every single time I preach or any time I'm studying a passage, one of the very first things I do is go to Wesley.nnu.edu, John Wesley's Notes on the Bible, and I read whatever he had to say. So um I had a hard time not including that. I if we're strictly going by usefulness, for me, his notes would even uh replace his standard sermons, but there's not nearly as much theological content in his notes.
SPEAKER_02All right, we're at number four. Uh number four. Uh from me, uh this is I you've not mentioned this, so I'm sure it's gonna be on your list, but I'm guessing it's probably a little bit higher than what I have. I don't know if it's your number one or not, but uh it is the uh second edition of William Burt Pope's compendium. And uh I'm going to assume that you're gonna hear more about this one when Jonathan gets to his list. Uh this is uh three volumes, so uh you know, a single work again, but multiple volumes, uh published in 1875 and 1876. And it is the the premier uh Methodist Sismac theology um really in the history of Methodism, even to this day. I don't I really don't think that there has been a replacement at the that that is really the same in scope as as Pope. Uh there are, of course, other Sismatic theories. We you know we mentioned Thomas Odin, but uh you know his is is very different than Pope. It's it's a very different, in fact, they complement each other, I think, very nicely. Um there are several major, there were several major systemic uh theologies from the 19th century, some excellent ones. Thomas Ralston would be definitely an honorable mention. Uh Richard Watson would definitely be an honorable mention. Uh the the um works of Randolph uh Foster uh would be would be an honorable mention. Uh I really like um Um uh Thomas Summers as well. He it's just hard to get. Some of those are hard to hard to find, uh especially Summers. Um but uh above all of those is is Pope and uh still very uh very useful today.
SPEAKER_01Um my number four is the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, the ACCS, edited by uh Thomas Odin. That is usually after Wesley's notes, the first commentary that I check. Um so like right now I'm preaching through the Gospel of John, and as I preach through the Gospel of John, I am reading one contemporary commentary. Um and then I am reading um the ACCS and John Wesley's notes pretty much every time uh I preach on a passage. So uh I wouldn't want to be without that. It has a wealth of excerpts from the fathers, and so it also points you to various key writings. So if you find something you really like, you know, you can explore more in depth what that father had to say on that uh passage or or subject. Um and it is trying to pull up my notes here so I can. There we go. I wrote it down. 29 volumes. That's right, 29 volumes of selected notes from the church fathers, edited by Odin. And I wanted to note here that in Lagos Bible software, it's $25 a volume. So if you're just preaching through one book, like John, you can just get the volume on John. It's actually two, I think it's two parts, so it'd be $50 for the whole book of John. Um, the whole set of 29 volumes is normally around $500. But if you watch Lagos, they put they run some good sales sometimes. I got the whole set for $286, which is pretty affordable. You can take your Christmas money towards that. It it is worth it. And I would say that if a pastor could only have one commentary set, that would be the one uh that it would want them to have. You know, you're not always gonna agree with the interpretation, but every time, every time I read the notes, I walk away with two feelings. Number one, I'm a terrible preacher and I should never preach again. And uh number two, I can't wait to get into the pulpit and preach. You know, like like on Canaan of Galilee this last week, I read Augustine's notes and I'm like, man, I wish I could preach like that. Wow, I just feel like a peon getting into the pulpit. But yet at the same time, it makes my heart soar, and I can't wait to get into the pulpit and share something, you know. So it's it's really valuable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I actually have the entire Old Testament in that set, and I have probably a third of the New Testament. So I found this at a cell, and you know, these are, I don't know, new, the hard copies are I have no idea. They're 40 bucks or so a piece. And uh so they were in a box and uh they were asking, I think, $75 for you know, however many volumes that is, right? Entire Old Testament and several from the New Testament, uh, probably about eight from the New Testament. And so um, yeah, I I I actually felt bad for for them selling it so cheaply. So I think I gave them a hundred bucks for it. So anyway, but yeah, I yeah, you're right. I always consult that if I have the commentary uh that I'm uh on the book that I'm studying, I always consult that as well. Uh actually didn't even think of that one. I don't know if it would have made it my top 10 or not, but uh certainly worth a mention there. All right, uh, we're in our top three. Now, before we get to our top three, uh you you mentioned this already. You said that you know yours maybe not necessarily in order. You you want to kind of give a description of your top three as far as like are they is it really one, two, three, or are are we pretty much equal?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean I I'm in the general order of importance. Let me think here about my top three. Uh number two could maybe get bumped down. The I'll tell you, the ACCS could very easily be in my top three. Ancient Christian Holitarian Scripture. I rely on that so much. Um it's a toss-up, but pretty close.
SPEAKER_02I think my top three are in the order in which I use them. Although two and three are pretty close. Uh it's they they might be they're pretty close. Um so but before I get to that, let me mention my last honorable mention here, and that is a book by I actually this is the first. Um let me see here. This is the first other than Thomas uh Kempus. Um Roman Catholic author here, and that's Thomas Merton. And so a lot of our listeners may not be as familiar with some of the the Catholic, uh the Roman Catholic authors. Um if you're not familiar, if you're a listener here and you're not familiar, like you just like automatically steer away from anything that's you know Roman Catholic, um, you know, I I would I would say you know, don't just automatically write off because there are there are a lot of uh one of my favorites, like Hun Hans, uh Hans Kung uh was like he was an outcast for the Roman Catholics, right? But he he was still always identified as Roman Catholic and has some absolutely some of the best theology on the doctrine of the church. Um but Thomas Merton is another one who he's an American, was an American, he's passed away, um, and was a sort of a modern mystic, but his brand of mysticism is um is not what maybe someone would think typically of mysticism. He actually is quite rational. Yeah, he's not he's not a quietist, he's not um like overly apophatic, where you know, the more like where talk about God just ultimately ends in in nothing, you know, saying nothing at all. Uh he always insists that no, no, God has created us to to you know we cannot exhaust in language, you know, the glory of God, but we we continue to speak, you know, we continue to sing, we continue to to make noises that are glorifying, edifying to God. So this is my favorite book of his. Uh and uh it's called No Man is an Island. Um, John Dunn, of course, wrote the The poem No Man is an Island, which is one of my favorite poems, by the way. But No Man is an Island is I think is going to go down truly as a classic from the 20th century. It is just a powerful, powerful book. And um highly recommend that. So that did not make my top 10. It actually was, and then ended up getting bumped for others. But okay, my number three, uh, you've already mentioned this, but I I did specify uh this maybe a little bit more than what you did. Uh this is uh one of several copies I have of the Methodist Hymnal. And um so I use I use this one, which is a 1928, I believe, uh edition, uh, American edition. Uh, but I also um recommend the one that is in the bicentennial edition of Wesley's works. I use that one. So I have this one in my study. I have the bicentennial one at home uh on my side table. And I read both of them because I use it so much. I read it at home devotionally, and then when I come to the study and I'm use, I'm studying, I use it here. So I have to have one in both places. Uh so that's one number three. Uh and uh you mentioned uh Randall McAwain's article. I think that is an article that he uh based on a paper he gave at Aldersgate Forum. Is that correct? Um do you know? No, I I am not sure. I I think it is, if I recall correctly. Um in any case, there's probably some overlap if it's not, but uh really, really good presentation at the Aldersgate Forum several years ago. And and of course, that article reflects at least some of that as well. I would recommend that. Um because he really is talking about the the richness of of the um theology that's contained there in the Wesley's hymns.
SPEAKER_01So Randall McAwain, we also have an article, Singing the Truth, Theology in the Hymns. I know that that's adapted from Aldersgate. Maybe he gave another presentation as well in Wesley's hymn book, I'm not sure. So my my number three is Pope's Compendium. It's not my number one, uh, but it is up there in my top three. And, you know, every every Methodist preacher needs a great Methodist systematic. I thought of Martin Lloyd Jones' um book, Preaching and Preachers, and that book had a pretty significant impact on me. He says there that preaching is um showing the exact relationship between an individual text and one's systematic theology. And so he talks there a lot about uh how uh effective, persuasive, powerful preaching uh necessitates a very robust systematic theology. And so sometimes if I'm preaching on a text, I will type in that text in Lagos, the compendium, or Watson or another method of systematic theology and see if they cite that text. And often they do. If it's a key text that's on my mind, a lot of times it's there somewhere. And I like to see where they included it. With Pope, it's always very intentional. And so Pope locates uh, you know, in his systematic where that text, you know, where that's most important, and then he will sometimes expound it directly, or you can see, okay, if I'm preaching on this text, here's the systematic doctrine that I need to be developing in this sermon to some extent. And I kind of think about it like buckets. You know, we we have all these different doctrines, obviously they're all interrelated, so I don't not crazy over this metaphor, but they're kind of like these buckets, and we we fill them up through preaching. So, you know, in the course of 10 years, I better be filling up the justification by faith bucket. I better be filling up the Trinity bucket, you know, little by little insights here and there. And uh, you know, having that systematic theology even in your preaching helps to remind you, okay, here's a bucket I should be filling up while I'm preaching on this text.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, good, good. All right. We are at our final two. And uh yeah, okay, so my second one, I'm actually gonna make a little adjustment to it. Um only because you included the whole the entire set of the ancient Christian commentary. I didn't know we were doing set. I didn't know we were doing entire sets, all right? Oh, okay. But so I'm gonna expand my because I had I had Wesley's standard sermons, okay, but I originally had the four volumes in the bicentennial edition of his sermons. That's 151 sermons uh by John Wesley. And the reason I I was hesitant to just go with the 52 standard sermons or or his as you mentioned, the 44 and then the eight added later, um, is because there are so many good sermons beyond those. And and so um I'm gonna go ahead and expand mine from the standard sermons to all 151 uh that have been collected in the bicentennial edition. That's it covers four volumes, but and those volumes are expensive, they're not they're not cheap, they're they're very expensive. But if you are going to purchase anything from that set, I recommend your first volume should be those four sermon volumes from from that. So that's um uh you've already talked a little bit about his standard sermons. And and same here. I find myself if if John Wesley, you know, preach on a topic or or a passage, I'm gonna look to see what he said uh on that. Um and I use in classes I teach here at the church, as well as for uh God's Bible School and College, uh, I use Wesley. So I almost always have a Wesley sermon or two that's assigned reading for for a class. So I use those a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we uh talked about republishing Wesley's sermon on the duty of constant communion with explanatory notes and other resources uh for a Methodist understanding and practice of communion, the Lord's Supper. So we may be publishing that a little plug for that. Uh my number two is a collection of creeds, catechisms, and confessions. Um, hands down, uh, I consult the uh Reformed Protestant confessions and catechisms more than anything other than scripture itself. So I'm constantly looking at what does the Westminster say about this? What does Belgian confession say about this? Uh I can't remember. You know, so like marriage. Recently I was talking about marriage and divorce and remarriage, and first thing I one of the first things I do, I go to Westminster, uh, what they have to say about marriage and divorce is just it's just excellent. Um, I can't imagine being without those confessional documents. So those are my number two. And I'll mention when I get to my number one why I had to include this as a separate a separate thing, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02So tell tell us about uh what uh this is edited by who?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's actually quite a few different collections, but I have the one that Crossway just came out with. Yeah, okay. Um Creed's that Dixorn, is that what's that? Van Dixhorn. Yes, yeah. He edited it, and there's an introduction to each of the works. Um, it has all the Westminster standards, so Westminster Confession, Westminster Shorter Catechism, Westminster Longer Catechism, it has the Heidelberg, it has the um Belgic Confession, okay, the Ecumenical Creeds, the Definition of Chalcedon, uh articles, 39 articles. It has the canons of Dort. I just ripped those out. No, not really. Uh, but yeah, it's uh it's a good resource. It's beautiful. Actually, I think Crossway sent it to me for free. I checked my orders everywhere, and I never ordered that book. It just showed up in my mailbox one day. So I don't know. I guess they were just trying to promote it. So good plug for Crossway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very nice. Um and that's actually part of a uh little series that they have, I believe. Uh, there's another on prayers as well. But anyway, yeah, so it actually along that genre, let me go ahead and mention this. This is not my list, it's not my number one, but I did consider putting uh Schoff's, you know, that's an old 19th-century work, but his three-volume on uh uh uh Creeds, Creeds, and Confessions, uh, which is still sort of a classic. And again, one of the things I like about Shaw is that he has the Latin and Greek text. So you can actually go back and you can do some research on that. It's it's good for both pastoral and academic use.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I consult that a lot on ccel.org. Yeah. So I actually didn't even think of that. That that may very well replace my number two because it has the text of the confessions. And I think it's that work. Correct me if I'm wrong, is it that work that has all of the early rules of faith? Well, there's a rule of faith, but the form various forms of the rule of faith. So there's like Irenaeus, Tertullian, and actually starts with a scriptural date, I think. Like it it pulls out key verses like Peter's Confession and Paul's summary of the gospel, and then it goes up through the Apostolic Fathers and all the way. Yeah, that is an awesome resource. That yeah, that may very well be my number two.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So it was, it would have been on my list, except um I don't I don't use it that regularly. I use it when I'm consulting, uh, you know, if if I'm writing a a you know, some sort of esoteric theological piece and I want to see what has been said, you know, in the confessions, I definitely pull it out. Um, but as far as sermonizing and on a regular basis, you know, teaching week in and week out, uh, you know, I don't use it as much. But I mean it's a top shelf book. I mean it's right here, right behind me. Uh, so it's definitely there. Okay, uh, down to number one. And uh this is number one um because I because I love this book and this list, uh, it should be obvious by now, but maybe not because we haven't given our number one. But these are books uh in addition to the Bible. So we are assuming through all this that uh we're reading our Bible. We have, and we can even do one on like our favorite study Bibles or our favorite Bibles or whatever, but uh that's not this list, right? So these are books in addition to the Bible, and this is the book that uh in many churches you will find in the pew next to a hymnal and next to the Bible. Uh a um you know, I just was just at a church here recently, and you got three books. You have the hymn book, you have the Bible, uh, you have a hymn book, and you have this book that I'm gonna mention. And I use it every single week. Like I do not go into a uh into a Sunday service without using this book. I have looked at this book and I I think I can say every service, it doesn't matter if it's Sunday morning, Sunday night, or anything else. I'm using something from this. Either something that I've memorized from it, or I'm actually using uh contents I haven't memorized from. And that's the Book of Common Prayer. Uh it is uh the edition I have I really like. It's not everyone's favorite edition, but uh what I just do that. Oh, it must have it. Oh, here it is. It's already on my desk. Uh, but I have uh the 1990 Oxford edition, and the same edition has been republished uh by someone other than Oxford, and I can't remember who it is that that republished it. So this has um uh you know, I I have no idea what edition, like how many times this uh the Book of Common Prayer has gone. I mean, it's dozens of times it's been edited, right? Uh updated or or things slightly changed. Uh, but I I do like this one. I do have some older editions as well, and occasionally we'll consult those. But this is the one I use every every week. And um, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a funeral or a wedding or a just a normal Sunday service or something else. I'm gonna take a prayer. I use the collect almost every Sunday. I use the collect for for the Sunday. I use um, you know, the Eucharistic liturgy, uh, at least at least some portion of it every Sunday. Now, with this, I will also mention uh John Wesley Sunday service. And I I put the whole Book of Common Prayer as my number one instead of John Wesley's Sunday service, uh, because it's just uh John Wesley Sunday service is just an abridgment of of the BCP. And his abridgment is basically says, you know, I'm not going to rewrite out you know everything that's in it. Uh, these are just, you know, so he he already acknowledges like you know his dependence on the BCP, uh, but he wanted to uh you know clarify some things and abridge some things, uh and that's what he includes in that. So that's my number one. Uh I would love to see pastors in our tradition use it more. And maybe we should have a recording that is just about how to use the BCP in a in our church tradition, which tends to be a little bit more free church, or as I like to say it, freewheeling church. And uh so maybe uh some some uh guidance on that might be helpful sometime. That's my number one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh so my number one is the upcoming New Methodist Catechism from Holy Joyce. No, it's not shameless. It is the it is the book of Comper. I have the 1662 on my list. Um and I actually put a quote here in my notes from Wesley. I believe there is no liturgy in the world, either in ancient or modern language, which breathes more of a solid, scriptural, rational piety than the common prayer of the Church of England. The language of it is not only pure, but strong and elegant in the highest degree. And so Wesley uh basically just makes a few changes, minor changes to the 1662 BCP for the Sunday service of the Methodists in North America. And one of the one of the major changes he makes is that when it comes to the Psalter, um he removes all of the like impregatory psalms, all of the psalms which curse enemies, because he says these are highly inappropriate for the lips of a Christian congregation. So I actually brought that up uh recently in our Wednesday night Bible study, and I just said, you know, hey, here's a prayer that we just read this week where, you know, so-and-so curses his enemies. Is it ever appropriate for us as Christians to pray that? And I said, John Wesley didn't think that it was for at least at a congregational setting, because he removed it from the BCB. So anyway, I will say this about the New Methodist Catechism since you mentioned uh an episode on teaching people how to use it. The upcoming New Methodist Catechism removes the Psalter from the Book of Common Prayer, assuming that most people, if they're gonna read the Psalms or use them in worship today, they're just gonna read them right out of their Bible. That frees up a ton of space. And um, other than that, we have almost everything from the Sunday service and even some things from the BCP that Wesley removed in his abridgment. So the New Methodist Catechism is one way to look at it, the Book of Common Prayer, slightly modernized and adapted for modern use, with uh in place of the Psalter, a about a hundred-page catechism broken into six weeks for baptism and church membership use, for weekly use in congregational teaching, and additional discipleship resources for the local church. So could be on my number one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And actually, since you mentioned the catechism, the one criticism that I have of the BCP, that the this particular edition, and I don't know all the history of it, the development of the catechism that's in this, but this is the uh you know, the Anglican uh catechism that's included in this, is I I think that in many places, and overall, I think it's inferior to some of the better-known catechisms, particularly uh, you know, Westminster. And so what what we're doing, the New Methodist Catechism, is we're going back to um looking at the catechisms that that Wesley would have looked at and been familiar with and used as well, which includes um Heidelberg and Westminster and others as well. So uh that is the one thing I don't use the catechism much. I do some, but I don't use it as much. If I'm gonna look at a catechism, I will pull off you know my other collection of catechisms. I have a different volume, which could have been on here as well. Uh another volume of catechisms I I use.
SPEAKER_01But I haven't looked at that catechism for a while. It's basically intended for confirmation. Is that correct? Because it it basically doesn't it start out by asking what vows did your god did your parents or godparents make for you when you were baptized as an infant? And then it goes through the baptismal covenant, you know, the renunciation of evil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, no, this does not, this is not prefaced with a liturgy here. Um it follows it follows a uh of course there's the Psalter, and then there's a brief section of, I don't know, 40 pages or less, 30 pages of prayers, and then an outline of the faith commonly called a catechism. So, but there's no um uh there's a rule.
SPEAKER_01What's the first question and answer if you have it in front of you? I'm curious.
SPEAKER_02What are the first question is why are we by nature? Oh, we are part of God's creation made in the image of God.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah. So there is an edition of the BCP. I don't know which one it is. Um, that maybe it's actually, you know what, that might be the Episcopal, that might be one of the newer Episcopalian versions of the Book of Con Prayer. Yeah. That that starts out by saying, What did your parents or godparents or whatever vow for you when you were baptized? So okay, okay. I need to refer to that again. I haven't looked at the the BCP catechism in a while.
SPEAKER_02There may be at least a few things there that would be worth considering for use in the uh in the Yeah, yeah, there are there are some useful things, but again, I don't turn to it as you know the first one that when it comes to a catechism. But so that that's my only you know kind of a little bit of a knock on it. Uh there are some things I don't like as well that aren't as stay uh stayed as well, I believe, as what they are in some of the other.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I just pulled for our listeners, I just pulled up bcponline.org. I go to that all the time. Um Usually that's where I draw the collects. So they have the traditional and the contemporary collects there. And what I'll often do is start with the traditional, I'll look at how they contemporize the language, and then sometimes I make a few tweaks of my own because I don't care for some of the changes they made. I feel like too much meaning is lost. Um, but that has uh one of the links there is the catechism, and that has the catechism that you just read. So people, if they want to get started with the BCP, it's great. You can start with a revised or with the online version. And then also um for the lectionary, instead of using the lectionary and the BCP, I will often use the revised common lectionary, and that's also online lectionary.library.vanderbilt.edu. Right, right. All right, we are over an hour here, so we've got to wrap this up. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so I think uh this is uh a good idea. This is a good idea. Hopefully, people will find it helpful, and um would love to hear people's comments. Uh this is just you know, this is my list, this is your list. You know, everyone's gonna have probably a slightly different list, but uh it's interesting. We have, of course, several the same. We had two or three or four uh overlapping. So uh that's that says something, I think. So yeah, I've enjoyed it. Uh we'll do it again. We have I have all kinds of ideas of uh lists that we can share.
SPEAKER_00Sounds good. Thank you for listening to the Holy Joys podcast. Email your questions to podcast at holyjoys.org, and they may be featured on a future episode. Our labors for a holy happy church are supported by generous listeners like you. Please pray about partnering with us at holyjoys.org forward slash donate.
